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For Right or Wrong

For Right or Wrong

Posted Sep 1, 2004 3:08 UTC (Wed) by huffd (guest, #10382)
Parent article: Back door in Diebold voting systems?

Elections will forevermore be in doubt unless there is physical evidence of the vote. Whether or not true, all elections will be viewed with a certain amount of pessimism.
This is nothing compared to what will be talked about after each election takes place as more and more ballots are replaced with touch screens.
It's impossible to get used to the idea, the only thing to do is to hope that whatever replaces fascism comes within our generation.


to post comments

BULL

Posted Sep 1, 2004 3:26 UTC (Wed) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] (17 responses)

The physical evidence means absolutely NOTHING unless you have the
patience, lots of eyes to pry, and mainly the *WILL*power to recount them.
Especially in our days.
The machine tamperable (if you haven't read the article) is the tabulator
-- the one making the SUMs. Go watch Gangs of New York again. The ballots
are still there, and are still recountable, but your calculator is
swinging the votes. Sweet, uh?
Now, if you read my comment in http://lwn.net/Articles/98671/ you'll see
where is the secret to a clean, trustworthy election: the process must
involve a lot of people counting and recounting and summing and checking
the ballot boxes/ voting machines etc etc etc. Accountability is lacking
in the US elections lately.

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 9:26 UTC (Wed) by jonth (guest, #4008) [Link] (16 responses)

IIRC, after the last presidential election, a couple of newspapers were given access to the Florida votes, hanging chads and all. They did have the patience to recount the votes.

Interestingly (and not reported very much) their count revealed that the election result stood.

Jonth

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 10:09 UTC (Wed) by pharm (guest, #22305) [Link] (10 responses)

Interestingly (and not reported very much) their count revealed that the election result stood.

ISTR that it was slightly more nuanced than that. The result went something like: If only the votes in those few counties where Gore had specifically requested a recount were counted correctly, then the result (ie, a Bush win) stood. However, if all the votes were recounted, then Gore won.

Of course, once you've open this particular can of worms, you start looking at other states with very close margins & things start looking dicey all over the place for both candidates

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 11:53 UTC (Wed) by aotheoverlord (guest, #3993) [Link] (8 responses)

Actually not true, because "all the votes" didn't include the absentee ballots... and we all know who would have won if they'd counted those...

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 13:05 UTC (Wed) by tymiles (guest, #16469) [Link] (7 responses)

None of it matters because in the US the President is not elected by the popular vote (Which by the way Final numbers showed Gore with 50,996,116 votes and Bush with 50,456,169. Bush won the White House by capturing 271 electoral votes, one more than the Constitution requires. The popular vote total included all absentee ballots that were counted in the weeks following the Nov. 7 election.)

The election is won by getting the most electoral votes from the Electoral College (Which are delegates from each state whom "normally" vote based on how the popular vote is trending. The silly rule is that if you have a state with 10 electoral votes (The amount of electoral votes each state has is based on population of each state at the time of the election Each state has the same number of electoral college members as the total of its senators and representatives.) and 6 go to Bush, 4 go to Gore then all 10 in the end go to Bush instead of splitting up the votes.

Anyway we all know that by redistricting you can sway votes because people assume that a district that is heavily pro one party will all most always give their electoral votes to the party they support. This is what they recently did in TX. They redistricted so the Republican Party could merge large clumps of Republican voters into blocks and get more voting power and more electoral votes in those areas of that state. Even with a paper trail you could tamper with the voting in borderline areas (Or Swing states) to make one party or the others look like a bigger block in areas where the dominant party has the base and most people would not notice. (This has never been proven to have happened. But no one knows if it has happened)

This computer crap just makes it more easy to tamper.

Post note: The winner-take-all system in the US awards all of a state's electoral votes to the candidate receiving the greatest number of statewide popular votes. (This may be a plurality rather than a majority.) Conversely, this means that a candidate who finishes second by a narrow margin gets no electoral votes at all. One effect of this system is to reinforce the established parties' hold on power, because it is more difficult for a third-party upstart to win a majority of electoral votes or even to influence the outcome of a presidential election by winning enough electoral votes to throw an election into the House. Groups that might otherwise have started their own parties have therefore had an incentive to work through the major parties rather than to confront them. Farmers, labor unions, and business groups, as well as ethnic and religious minorities, are thus encouraged by the winner-take-all system to find a home within the two-party system. The winner-take-all system reinforces the existing power structure, and it is no surprise that it has been strongly supported by the two major parties that benefit from it.

The winner-take-all system has been criticized in that it lessens the likelihood of multiparty choices and thereby limits the ability of voters to "let off some steam" by voting for a candidate with a philosophy that might be closer to their own. The fewer candidates in the field, the greater the likelihood that a voter will feel alienated by the lack of a real choice. In some circumstances, it is suggested, the safety valve afforded by alternative party choices could prove useful in maintaining governmental legitimacy.

Another disadvantage of the winner-take-all system, according to its critics, is that it tends to exclude the population of some states from the national political dialogue. In every presidential election, some states are "in play" and others are not, meaning that one political party has effectively conceded the state to its opponent. As a result, neither party tends to spend much money in that state on political advertising or do much campaigning, which would go for naught. If electoral votes were awarded on a district-by-district basis, it has been argued, more advertising and campaigning would occur and therefore more Americans would be included in the national election-year dialogue. Of course, some districts would also not be "in play," but it is likely that candidates would have to campaign in more states, thereby involving more of the population in the election-year dialogue.

(Sorry about the rant)

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 14:23 UTC (Wed) by LogicG8 (guest, #11076) [Link] (2 responses)

None of it matters because in the US the President is not elected by the popular vote

On a national level that is how it works but in some states the electoral votes go to the person who wins the popular vote in that state. Florida happens to be one of those states so it matters very much.

I won't comment on the outcome of the last presidential election except to say I was absolutely mortified. The US could do a lot better.

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 14:31 UTC (Wed) by haydentech (guest, #22504) [Link]

I won't comment on the outcome of the last presidential election except to say I was absolutely mortified. The US could do a lot better.

So much for not commenting...

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 15:44 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

Which is why I am for Cthulhu/Voldemort for President! Why choose a lesser evil! http://www.cthulhu.org/

[And yes this basically my opinion on politics in general.]

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 15:40 UTC (Wed) by vmole (guest, #111) [Link] (2 responses)

Bush won the White House by capturing 271 electoral votes, one more than the Constitution requires.

No, Bush won the White House by capturing 5 U.S. Supreme Court votes, exactly as many as the Constitution requires. We don't know how many electoral votes he won, because we don't know how many popular votes he won, because the SC told everybody they had to stop counting.

(If I'd meant that to be funny, I'd have put in a smiley.)

Patience

Posted Sep 1, 2004 15:53 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] (1 responses)

Actually the problem is that very few of the political voting systems in place deal with statistical error. Too many states were within the statistical error of voting methods. While Florida was in the end (by a total recount) for Gore by a little.. New Mexico and a couple of other Gore states were during academic recounts in the Bush camp. And it took at least a year to figure it out because each state does it slightly different and some even let counties/parishes decide.

The problem is that the system is not meant to deal with elections within statistical error. You can try to lower the statistical error with newer methods.. but in the end, it is a flaw in the system itself.

Patience

Posted Sep 9, 2004 14:33 UTC (Thu) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link]

Why the heck does it take a year to manually recount all votes in God's
own Country(tm)? Here in Germany, all votes are counted manually, and
recounting is mandatory. Last time, our two big parties were "too close to
call" in the first count (some votes got lost in the hurried accumulation
at 4am), but the recount fixed that. The recount usually is available 2
weeks after the election. That's all mandatory by law, so there is no
silly dispute over it.

Nationwide elections here are usually quite close, and this seems to be
the same anywhere - two-party systems establish even without winner takes
it all (the other parties are struggling at a low level), and the two
sides take about 50% of the population. The positions of the two big
parties are so close to each other that the voter has no real choice. Or
at least thinks he has no real choice, since the position of a party
before election is not what they do afterwards. Unfortunately, what they
do afterwards depends mostly on lobbyists, and the lobbyists are the same
in any case.

Electoral college system (state by state)

Posted Sep 1, 2004 15:42 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

The winner take all system is decided on a state by state basis. There is at least one state that allocates by percentages of the vote. The main problem with the winner take all versus percentage system is that it leads to a 2 party system with any extra parties becoming 'spoilers' by pulling away votes from one or the other party. A percentage rule of electoral votes allows for multiple parties within reason.. (IE a state with 5 electoral votes would at best allow for 5 parties... )

Actual recount results

Posted Sep 1, 2004 17:04 UTC (Wed) by rjamestaylor (guest, #339) [Link]

USA Today (among others) sponsored the full recount and provided the results that would have followed under different "recount scenarios" -- but the one specified by the overturned Florida Supreme Court would have definitely widened Bush's lead and the election would have stood. In one of those scenarios, one not on the table after the 2000 election and not sought by the Gore camp, Gore could have received a victory with 393 votes over Bush; all other scenarios supported the Bush victory.

See: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/media_watch/jan-june01/recount_4-3.html

Access to votes? After the election?

Posted Sep 1, 2004 10:21 UTC (Wed) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] (4 responses)

Does not mean anything at all. /after/ the election, there is a lot of
time to falsify ballot box receipts and totals, and print/prepare/enter
the right number of ballots to match. That is the whole point of my post.

In our process, we have a lot of people -- and importantly, a lot of
public officials that cannot be fired, so they don't fear for their jobs
when it's time to blow the whistle -- taking a look at each step of the
way, from the (partial unfortunately) code audit to the prep/testing of
each voting machine... in all the steps, there are public officials,
party officials, who have their reputation (and jail time) at stake.

The work done by the tabulators (the machines with the double-booking in
the article) is re-done independently, 30-50 times (one for each party,
one for each media -- including indie media -- outlet): this is the way
things can't go wrong.

IMHO people (or at least voters) of the USofA should, while it's not too
late, get organized (something USofAns do very, very well) in each and
every and get to check the votes in the closing of the ballot boxes.
Somebody stay with an eye on the things all times. Somebody counting,
recounting, adding and re-adding.

Remember, in the closing time of the boxes is the less probable time
you'll have election fraud. Be quick and the risks will rise to those who
have interest in frauding. Put fraudster and any people in jail.

Good luck! As it stands right now, the USofA is in dire need of it.

Access to votes? After the election?

Posted Sep 1, 2004 16:09 UTC (Wed) by huffd (guest, #10382) [Link] (3 responses)

And using electronic balloting is going to make it safer? Get a reality check already.

Access to votes? After the election?

Posted Sep 1, 2004 16:56 UTC (Wed) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] (2 responses)

Read the next paragraphs, please. My point is that electronic balloting will not be permitted to swing elections results if enough many eyes are on the ball. It won't make it better nor worse. Bear with me, please.

Brasil, too, has e-voting, and it /works/.
(Posted Aug 20, 2004 13:40 UTC (Fri) by hummassa)

Yes, I said this all before, but...

I live in Brasil. We have had voting machines in the last 12-14 years (yes, twelve to fourteen -- it depends the size of the city you are in). Brazilians here: the first election here in Belo Horizonte to use the machines were the mayoral (and city council, state representation, governor, house and senate) before FHC was elected (as I count it, 2 years + 8 years + 1 1/2 = 11,5 years). I know it, because I was "mesário" (election "table" official? election "clerk"? what is a good English translation?) in the previous election, and in the two subsequent elections). IIRC, there were electronic ballot boxes in Rio and Sao Paulo in the election before that (the only two cities larger than Belo Horizonte).

Our voting machines are mainly of three different (internally) models: (a) the old ones, that use VirtuOS (*) as the OS, (b) the new ones, that use WinCE as the OS, and (c) the newest and deprecated ones that have the second printer to print your vote, show it to you inside a clear acrilic case, and mix it with others inside the machine.

Externally, all of them look roughly the same: a box similar to the old "portable computers" of the eighties, with a 5-6" diagonal LCD and a big numerical keypad in the right side of the screen, that has, besides the 0-9 keys, "confirma" (ok), "erro" (cancel), and "branco" (white).

The electoral process (from the point of view of the voter) begins ... when you get your first job. If you are a mandatory voter (literate person with age 18 to 65) you have to go to Electoral Court and register to vote. In the process of registering, you receive the "Título de Eleitor" (voter id card), in which you have the number of you voting section. To change jobs, and specially to get a government job, you have to prove you are a registered and regularized voter (you voted in the last election, or regularized your voting situation after it).

In the election day -- normally the first Sunday of October for the first round and the first Sunday of November in case of needing a second round (**), you scan the newspapers (or the Superior Electoral Court website), search for the address of your section, and go there. No, there is no transit (absentee) vote, you can only vote at that address. If you can't get there, you'll have to "justify" your absence to an Electoral Judge, to regularize your voting situation.

At the section, you will present your voter id card to one the "mesários", and if you don't have it on you, you can still vote (you can show other valid id), but will be delayed. The mesário will search for your name in the vote-ticket sheet, and annex it to your id while you vote. You will sign a receipt in a sheet, and proceed to the voting "booth". Another "mesário" will type your voter id # in a remotely connected keypad, setting the machine in the "ready to vote" mode.

The voting "booth" is really only a desk with the voting machine over it, facing nobody else in the room, and sometimes with a cardboard "cover" around it. You will "dial" the numbers of the candidates, in order. when you dial all the digits of one candidate, a star-trek-like chime rings, his/her face will show up in the screen, and if you digited it right, you hit "ok". otherwise, you hit "cancel" and start over. After typing all the candidates, you hit "ok" one last time, the machine chimes again, and goes to "stand by" mode. You have voted. If you don't want to vote for nobody for some office, you can hit "white" instead of the candidate ## (accounted as a "white vote", or "none of the above" -- this is the equivalent of putting your paper ballot in the box without marking anything), or if you really want to protest you can type 9999 or other non-existent-candidate-#, and your vote will be accounted as a "null vote", or "I'm really pissed of" (the equivalent of drawing pictures or writing "improper expletives" in a paper ballot)

Then, you get your id back, your ticket (keep it together with your voter id!! -- it's the proof that you are a regularized voter!), and you go home. Ah, bars do not open (theoretically) in the election day, so hope you have bought your beer/wine/other-booze in the day before).

From the point of view of election officials, things are more complicated. The machines arrive to the Electoral Judge (yes, a Judge of Law) pre-prepared one to two months before the election day, along with boxes of diskettes (where the results will go) and Flash ROM cards (where the software and the candidates names/photos will go). All Electoral Judge Offices already have Flash readers, to make some verifications on this Flash ROMs.

The electoral Judge has the personal responsability of, in the meantime before the election day, testing *ALL* of the machines and checking their Flashes with some checking software. He has to set the clock to the election opening date/time, emit the "zerésima" (0th report), that is a report saying "this box has no votes on it", make some votes, close the box, emit the totalling report, check if those were the votes, repeat the procedure a random number of times, and sign the machine as "ok" in a list. He should do it in a way that prevents "date/time" hacks, "number of activation times" hacks to be done. Some machines even get tested for a full day, to test for "number of votes" hacks. He can delegate some of the work, but it's his responsability -- he better delegate it to trusted people, in case of fraud it's his neck on the line.

In the evening of the election day, he must make sure the clocks are ok for all of the machines.

In the election day, the "mesários" in each section must emit the 0th report, annex it to the official election papers, and the box is ready to be used. At the end of the election day, the "mesários" emit 6 or more copies of the totalling report for each box. Three of them go with the official election papers, one is affixed in the outside of the section, and the others go to party appointed officials. Some electoral judges appoint press members to receive them, too.

The totalling is already in a diskette, that is inside a sealed compartment in the box. Some Electoral Judge Office employee breaks this seal (marking he's done so), and the diskettes are read in a computer in the Office, their contents (probably signed cryptographically) sent (directly by a dial-up line, not over the Internet) to the Regional Electoral Court, where they are processed against all other ballot boxes.

I should say, at this point, that all of this is accompanied by the Electoral Judge and the District Attorney, which are not elected officials in Brasil, and the elected officials have no power over them. Or at least, should not have.

The press and the parties' officials all have the intermediate per-box results, immediately after the election closed, so they can do the math, too. And they do -- in small towns the result of the mayoral elections is usually known far before the official announcement, because people sum the per-box results by hand, instead of waiting for the Big Computer at the Regional Court add for them.

Quoting (mis-quoting?) Gangs of New York, "ballots do not win elections -- counting does!", the counting/summing part is verifiable.

At this point, I should say I consider our system very very reliable, because of the distributed nature of the checkings that are done in the machines. I have worked at a District Attorney's office, and the fiscalization of the procedures to be done to the machine by the Electoral Judge was partly delegated to me, so I know what I'm talking about. The Judges and their guys usually fiddle with the clock, make a lot of votes, and thoroughly check the machines before they are used. This is taken very seriously.

Even in the few instances where it's not done so seriously, the overall bad effect is not great. Yes, it should be relatively easy to rig a mayoral election in a small town (100 machines or less -- each machine in the range from 500-10000 voters) -- but just with the DA's and the Judge's help. And they usually won't help, normally they have nothing in it for them, and the risk is very big [election fraud penalties are reasonably high]). But I think impossible the effort to rig, p.ex., an election like our last presidential one -- and, to boot, won by the opposition party.

You must notice that this is only allowed by our unified electoral system. The voter database is also a single one and it's very difficult to vote twice or more in our system.

I think the electronic system is better than the paper-ballots one (at least here in Brasil, but probably everywere) because counting ballot papers is hard, slow, error- and fraud-prone and no-one wants to recount them. It's easier, in my opinion, to rig some pre-printed million paper ballots and distribute them in a lot of ballot boxes than to distribute a million swing votes in 1000 machines.

I think the snafu in the last USofA election is really due to few people watching the counts, etc. Our multi-party (c. 20-30 parties now, but there were 50 at some point in the 90's) system makes every count/recount have at least 100 party officials doing the same. The voting machines were reasonably scrutinized by party-appointed experts.

Yes, paper trail (now deprecated here) is good, but only if you have a good, OCR-like way of counting the paper ballots. This is expensive. Our paper-trail machines had a second (thermal?) printer, that printed your vote and displayed it inside a clear plastic case before it was dropped in a box inside the machine, all sealed. But... as I said before, who is gonna recount them? It's easier to trust the distributed nature of the election and the audits made by the parties officials. If the paper trail were made in big, OCR-able letters, or with some bar-code, the tickets would have to be fixed-size, bigger than they were, and more expensive, in general.

Finally, yes, I would like the boxes to be all-free-software, so every citizen could independently verify the reliability of them, and even to check criptographically in some sense that the voting box he is using is "pristine", if possible, but... we did not get there yet.

(*) a DOS-clone-enhanced with possibility of multitasking and multiuser operation. a nice system, and it was always far better than MS-DOS.

(**) we have many political parties, so for the majority-vote offices (normally executive ones), if a candidate does not win 50%+1 of the valid votes, another electoral round is made with only the two most-voted candidates.

Access to votes? After the election?

Posted Sep 2, 2004 18:50 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (1 responses)

Ok. Correct me if I'm wrong but... to make it all totally irrelevant you need:
1. One programmer to hack machines.
2. 1000 peoples (one per machines) to activate hack when it's needed.

No other stupid things are needed. No DA's and/or Judge's help, nothing. I'm not sure if it's easier or harder to do then to sabotage paper voting but it does not look like an "impossible barrier" to me. No amount of testing will help you against manual activation of "fraud mode", you know.

Access to votes? After the election?

Posted May 25, 2021 11:45 UTC (Tue) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link]

The machines are physically checked up and are disconnected (they don't have modems, wifi, or other communication devices); how do you propose to activate the "fraud mode" simultaneously in the minimum of 10.000 devices (the bare minimum to fraud a national election) in a country bigger than the continental USofA?


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