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Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 5, 2024 20:57 UTC (Thu) by zeha (subscriber, #61580)
In reply to: Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case? by NYKevin
Parent article: Debian opens a can of username worms

> Maybe this is my Anglophone chauvinism speaking

Yes.


to post comments

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 5, 2024 22:00 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

As someone speaking several languages with non-Latin alphabets, sometimes it makes sense to stick to ASCII. Otherwise, you're just setting yourself for a world of pain. Imagine entering Chinese text on a terminal in text mode.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 9, 2024 9:28 UTC (Mon) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link] (2 responses)

Or imagine dealing with users with a mix of Chinese, Thai, Japanese, Cyrillic,... usernames on the same system in your audit logs.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 9, 2024 17:53 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

That's not the worst. Unbalanced right-to-left switches are.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 10, 2024 6:39 UTC (Tue) by pvaneynd (subscriber, #898) [Link]

It's even worse then that. You need to know which language a text is in to know which fonts to use to display it.
The main cause of this is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification in unicode, which maps different Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese characters to the same unicode code point.So the whole "let's juse use UTF-8" isn't remotely enough :(.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 6, 2024 14:32 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (8 responses)

I would say it's “yes” and “no”, simultaneously.

I have meet a lot of people who simply don't know English well enough to type name in ASCII.

Unfortunately the majority of them I have meet when they cried on various forums about how unfair it is that they “have only just used Cyrillic (Arabic, Farsi, etc) name” – and now have so many broken programs they couldn't even count them all.

Yes, it's deeply anglophonic, yes, it's unfair, true, people genuinely suffer if your force that on them…

But the experience says that it's still better for them to lean 1 (one) English world (their account name) once then suffer through innumerable programs that don't support any other names properly.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 6, 2024 21:46 UTC (Fri) by epk (guest, #174765) [Link]

I must sadly approve of this answer.

And it's not as though a non-Latin-alphabet username would really help that much, since so much text - especially in path names and URLs - is in English. There is, however, the full name of each user, and I'm guessing that should be much easier to have non-Latin UTF-8 in. And for non-computer-literate users who need a lot of hand-holding, they might actually see mostly/only their full names.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 7, 2024 10:18 UTC (Sat) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link] (1 responses)

I would like to reiterate that I was specifically thinking of logging in at the console, since (as I mentioned) the GUIs are already displaying the GECOS field (which supports full Unicode) in an interactive picker, at least under most reasonable configurations. I do not understand how you're going to get very far at the command line if you can't type in ASCII.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 7, 2024 10:59 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

You wouldn't. Obviously people who couldn't type ASCII wouldn't ever do (and don't plan to do) anything in the command line.

That's fine, the majority of computer users don't ever use command line and are not interested in the command line (many don't even know it exists).

But even for them using non-ASCII letters in the $HOME is PITA. Simply because programs stop working – and changing $HOME temporarily brings another layer of pain.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 18, 2024 21:34 UTC (Wed) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

>for them to lean 1 (one) English world

Yes, what a shame they can't just lean one world. Or just learn to live in one English world.
Or just lean on one word to avoid learning English.
Or something.

(yeah, cheap shot, but come on, if you're gonna get on a soapbox about folks learning to spell one word, you really should double check that you spelled *word" correctly, and avoid inadvertently proclaiming that there is one English World - it's the kind of thing that could end up really getting under a Scot's skin).

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 21, 2024 21:18 UTC (Sat) by steffen780 (guest, #68142) [Link] (3 responses)

I used to have a non-ASCII character in my surname, an "ö". After spending many hours of travel mentally preparing for the possibility of a heavily armed but dumb border guard making trouble for me because the UK travel company's software supplier apparently didn't realise that travellers on international journeys might have non-ASCII names (turned the "ö" into like 5 random characters) I started booking tickets with "o" instead. I figured that the kind of ignoranus who wrote the ticketing software above wouldn't notice the missing dots - and anyone who does notice will understand my explanation why I gave a false name. And this wasn't in 1960, this was ca 2001 or later. Remember, this was with a travel company. Not a local bus company, these people did substantial international travel. In fact the brand was "Eurolines" - but they couldn't even handle German names.

Similarly, until 2010 or so I would not use äöüß in filenames. Ever. To this day I still only use my native languages properly for low-risk "user-only" files - so I might use it for a LibreOffice file or a video, but I would not use it for a login username, anything in /etc, and so on. I just don't want the extra hassle. But I'm fairly advanced with IT - how is a typical user supposed to know that some software still can't handle such things, many DECADES after the problem was partially solved with Unicode? Do we really expect children today to learn a 1950s (!) encoding just so they know what characters they can use in a username? Surely there's more useful things that can be taught instead. E.g. pretty much anything else ;)

That being said: I wouldn't hold my breath for non-ASCII login usernames to become reliably usable with the infamous "long tail" of software. But huge progress has been made, and I think it's important to keep going.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 22, 2024 12:26 UTC (Sun) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (1 responses)

One of the restrictions I set when we chose our children's name was to avoid accented characters - for the very same reason, to avoid possible problems during travel. For various reasons I lifted this restriction for our third child - of course he was the one born abroad :-) I was very (and pleasantly) surprised when the British clerk managed to produce a proper ó for the birth certificate - I think she saved us quite a headache.

we really expect children today to learn a 1950s (!) encoding

What they need to know is the English alphabet. And as English is the international language nowadays, we can expect them to learn this while they learn English. Besides, we're using lot of stuff "hardcoded" in the previous centuries, from the metric system to normal gauge, the Latin alphabet itself, etc. the list of characters in the original ASCII charset is just one of them.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 22, 2024 13:55 UTC (Sun) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

> surprised when the British clerk managed to produce a proper ó for the birth certificate

I wouldn't be surprised, given the number of Polish people in the UK.

Doesn't the GECOS field already cover some of this use case?

Posted Dec 23, 2024 9:25 UTC (Mon) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

Optimistically you could consider the problem "solved" by Unicode two decades ago, pessimistically it isn't even fully there yet today (e.g. some popular database products still do or only recently switched to full UTF-8 encodings as the default and did not support anything outside the Unicode BMP in their previous default encoding).

I wouldn't call that "solved it many decades ago".


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