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ELC: Google learns to drive

By Jake Edge
February 21, 2013

Andrew Chatham came up the peninsula to San Francisco from Google to talk to the 2013 Embedded Linux Conference about the self-driving car project. Chatham has worked on the project since 2009 and seen it make great strides. It is by no means a finished product, but the project has done 400,000 miles of automated driving so far.

[Andrew Chatham]

History

"Cars are a miracle", he said. The 45-mile drive he did to Mountain View yesterday would have taken our ancestors all day to do on a horse. But, cars are also problematic, with more than 30,000 annual deaths in the US due to car accidents. That number has "finally started dropping", likely due to more seat belt usage, but it is still too high. Even if there are no fatalities, accidents cost time, money, and more. We have done a pretty good job figuring out how to survive accidents, he said, but it is time to stop having them.

In the mid-2000s, the US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) ran several challenges for self-driving cars on a 150-mile course in the Mojave Desert. The first year, the winning team's vehicle went only seven miles. But the next year, five teams actually completed the course, which was eye-opening progress. In 2007, DARPA moved the challenge to a simulated urban environment that featured a limited set of traffic interactions (four-way stops, but no traffic lights, for example). After that event, "DARPA declared victory" and moved on to other challenges, Chatham said.

In 2009, Google stepped in to solve the problem "for real". Chatham noted that people have asked why Google would get involved since driving cars doesn't involve searching the internet or serving ads. The company thinks it is an important problem that needs to be solved, he said. Google is qualified to attack the problem even though it has never made cars because it is mostly a software problem. Also, one major component of the problem involves maps, which is an area where Google does have some expertise.

Broadly, there are two categories for self-driving cars: one for cars with all the smarts in the car itself and one where the smarts are in the road. For cars that are self-contained, they need to be ready for anything and cannot make assumptions about the obstacles they will face. That tends to lead to cars that move slowly and drive cautiously, much differently than humans. Smart roads allow for dumb cars, but there are some serious obstacles to overcome. Infrastructure is expensive, so there is a chicken-and-egg problem: who will build expensive smart roads (or even lanes) for non-existent dumb cars that can use them?

The Google approach is something of a hybrid. There are no actual infrastructure changes, but the system creates a "virtual infrastructure". That virtual infrastructure, which is built up from sensor readings and map information, can be used by the car to make assumptions much like a human does about what to expect, and what to do.

Sensors and such

The car's most obvious sensor is the laser rangefinder that lives in a bubble on top of the car. It spins ten times per second and produces 100,000 3D points on each spin. Each of those points have 5cm accuracy. The laser can only see so far, though, and can be degraded in conditions that affect photons, such as rain.

The car also has radar, which is not as precise as the laser, but it can see further. It can also see behind cars and other solid objects. Using the doppler effect, speed information for other objects can be derived. There are also cameras on the car. The general "computer vision problem" is hard, and still unsolved, but it isn't needed for the car's usage of the camera. The camera is used for things that humans use as well, which means they are generally rather obvious and are of known shapes, sizes, and likely positions (e.g. traffic lights). Beyond that are the expected sensors like gyroscope, accelerometer, GPS, compass, and so on.

There are two main computers in the car. One is a very simple "drive by wire system" that has no operating system and is just in a tight loop controlling the brakes, steering, and accelerator. The second is a "workstation class system running FreeBSD", Chatham joked. In reality it is running a lightly customized Ubuntu 12.04 LTS. It is not running the realtime kernel, but uses SCHED_FIFO and control groups to provide "realtime-ish" response.

There are several classes of processes that run on the system, with the least critical being put into control groups with strict resource limits. If any of the critical processes miss their deadlines, it is a red flag event which gets logged and fixed. In the 400,000 miles the cars have traveled (so far always with a human on board), those kinds of problems have been largely eliminated. All of the data for those journeys has been stored, so it can be played back whenever the code is changed to try to find any regressions.

From the "blank slate" state of the car, GPS data is added so that it knows its location. That data is "awful really", with 5m accuracy "on a good day" and 30m accuracy at other times. The car's sensors will allow it to accurately know which way it is pointing and how fast it is going. From there, it adds a logical description of the roads in that location derived from the Google Maps data. It uses maps with 10cm resolution plus altitude data, on top of which the logical information, like road locations, is layered.

All of that information is used to build a model of the surroundings. The altitude data is used to recognize things like trees alongside the road, as well as to determine the acceleration profile when climbing hills. The goal is to stay close to the center of the lane in which the car is traveling, but not if something is blocking the lane (or part of it). You also don't want to hit the guy in front of you, so don't go faster than he does. Once the model is built, driving is largely a matter of following those two rules, he said.

Problems and solutions

In California (unlike many other places) it is legal for motorcycles to travel between the lanes, moving between the cars that are in each of those lanes. That was a difficult problem to solve because that situation could fool the sensors to some extent.

One of the tests they ran was a race track that was set up to see how the car did versus Google employees. It reliably beat them in that test, though Chatham believes the employees would have eventually beaten the car. It's "a Prius, not a sports car", so there were limits to the kinds of maneuvering that can be done, but the test really showed the "precision with which we can reliably drive the car", he said.

Lots about driving is "social", Chatham said. For example, there is a set of rules that are supposed to be followed at a four-way stop, but no one follows them. The car had to learn to start to edge out to see when the others would let it go through. Similarly, merging is social, and they have spent a lot of time getting that right. Unlike human drivers, the car can't make eye contact, so it is a matter of getting the speed and timing right for what is expected.

The "bug on the window problem" is another difficult one. For the car, anything that messes up its sensors needs to be handled gracefully. In those cases, handing control back to the human in a sensible fashion is the right thing to do.

Many people ask about how the car does in snow, but it hasn't been tried yet. Currently, Chatham thinks it wouldn't do all that well, but thinks it "could do OK eventually". One problem there is that snowbanks appear to be giant walls of water to the lasers.

"People do stupid things", he said. If you drive 400K miles, you are going to experience some of them. Normally the expectation is that other people value their lives; if you didn't believe that, you would never leave home. But there are exceptions, so a self-driving car, like a regularly driving human, needs to be prepared for some of that craziness.

The video of a blind man using the self-driving car is the kind of story that shows where this technology could lead, Chatham said. There are a lot of people who can't drive for one reason or another, so a self-driving car has the potential to change their lives. "I wish it were done now, but it's not", he said.

Chatham answered a few questions after the talk. They have done very little work on "evasive maneuvers", he said. Everyone overestimates their ability in that area and the advice from police and others is to just use the brakes. There are no plans as yet to release any of the source code, nor are there any plans for a product at this point. Three states have "legalized" self-driving cars, California, Nevada, and Florida. It is furthest along in California where the Department of Motor Vehicles is currently drafting rules to govern their use.

[ I would like to thank the Linux Foundation for travel assistance to attend ELC. ]

Index entries for this article
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to post comments

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 21, 2013 19:35 UTC (Thu) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link] (10 responses)

Shame this isn't being done in the open! This is an area where peer reviewed open development could really shine. It would attract all kinds of the best and brightest software engineers.

In any case I can't drive due to low vision and really hope I'll be able to use one of these in a few years.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 22, 2013 3:49 UTC (Fri) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (5 responses)

Open source would be rather pointless here. The hardware is expensive, probably undergoing constant modifications of one sort or another. Software changes come from actual field trials and not from the kind of testing that can be done by just any interested person. A solid core of a few full-time programmers is probably more usefully employed in actual programming, not in screening contributions of mixed value from outsiders of whom they know little.

Might be different once other people have their own qualified cars, but not before then.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 22, 2013 10:15 UTC (Fri) by ortalo (guest, #4654) [Link] (1 responses)

I'd like more open source personnally, but for a different reason: spot the vulnerabilities in that code before the cars are released.
(And no, a solid core of paid full-time programmers swearing with right hand raised that their code is secure will not convince me more than a bunch of hardcore open-source hackers grep-ing through it. Maybe I've been burnt too many times now.)

open sourcing of Google self-driving car code

Posted Feb 23, 2013 0:38 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I rather doubt legions of people would spend time reviewing code, without compensation, that they can't run themselves. It sounds really boring and unrewarding. Where open source benefits from the many eyes, it's because legions of people already know and use the code for other reasons - they work on it themselves. At the very least, they use it.

We all want to learn to drive

Posted Feb 22, 2013 13:08 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Laboratory tests could be developed (or enhanced) for many of the same situations that arise while driving. For example: give it a picture or a live feed of a semaphore and see if it is recognized, a radar map to find out a spot, and so on. Also, the low level libraries could be scrutinized and improved.

Field tests are now almost impossible to run for anyone except the original developers, but that is likely to change in a few years.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 24, 2013 22:58 UTC (Sun) by Russ.Dill@gmail.com (guest, #52805) [Link]

One of the reasons they drove 400k miles is that so they would have a huge dataset to test against. If they can use this dataset for testing, so could opensource developers and other researchers.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 28, 2013 13:37 UTC (Thu) by heijo (guest, #88363) [Link]

I suppose you could just run it in a driving simulation using Google Earth data, and could have lots of fun throwing stuff on the road, cutting into his path with your own simulated car, and seeing how the car reacts.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 23, 2013 0:53 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (3 responses)

In any case I can't drive due to low vision and really hope I'll be able to use one of these in a few years.

Probably more than a few years for that. In a few years, fully sighted people may be able to use these cars, but for everyone else, probably decades more. Today, only 3 states have allowed cars on the road that don't have a human actively driving, and even those require a licensed driver to be sitting in the driver's seat ready to take over. (Google apparently broke the law to make the video with the blind man in the driver's seat).

A better hope for those who can't drive would be the self-driving roads. Those are a lot better than self-driving cars in a lot of ways, and we wouldn't even want occupants of cars on a self-driving road to participate in the driving, but I understand why Google is more interested in the self-driving car path.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 23, 2013 14:36 UTC (Sat) by intgr (subscriber, #39733) [Link] (1 responses)

Now what's a self-driving road? A Google search didn't produce any meaningful results.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 23, 2013 17:24 UTC (Sat) by dthurston (guest, #4603) [Link]

See the beginning of the article: it's the "smart road" option.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 24, 2013 23:01 UTC (Sun) by Russ.Dill@gmail.com (guest, #52805) [Link]

If they broke the law to make the video, their police escort was rather lax in enforcing it.

Retroactive vindication

Posted Feb 22, 2013 13:21 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Let me bring out this bit of vindictiveness from the recent past (2012-10-27):
Q: Do you think the robot will adapt to driving in e.g. snowy roads unless the algorithms have been programmed to deal with it?
A: Yes. Google's self driving cars are programmed with a mix of clever algorithms, classical AI algorithms and new machine learning techniques. All put together leads to some surprising results on the tests.
I stand by my original assertion: the whole "artificial intelligence" field is not delivering on its promises. We are still far from a reliable solution for the self-driving car judging from the article. The most worrisome part of the article is that at any problem with the sensors, the car handles control back to the human -- who is distracted or potentially blind. Imagine if you had to pass control to someone else every time a bug obscured your view or your eyes got watery.

Don't get me wrong: a self-driving car is an impressive achievement, and this article would seem like black magic to people just 30 years ago (witness 1982 Knight Rider). But apparently we are still a long way from the real thing; I just wish we were much farther along the road (puns unintended).

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 1:00 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (19 responses)

In California (unlike many other places) it is legal for motorcycles to travel between the lanes,

Not exactly. In California, like most places, a vehicle must be in a lane, and there are procedures to be followed to change lanes. What is different in California (different from every other US state, I believe) is that multiple vehicles can be abreast in the same lane. (The phrase is "lane splitting," as the vehicles effectively split the lane into sublanes).

Unfortunately, it isn't even that simple because like many places, it's against the law in California to do anything unsafe on the road, which places drivers at the mercy of the judgment of police officers. I have heard that many police officers believe lane splitting is unsafe unless the motorcycle is inching along through a traffic jam, and enforce the law that way.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 1:23 UTC (Sat) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (6 responses)

In California, it is legal for motorcycles to travel between lanes of stopped cars. They can travel at no more than 15 mph when doing so.

the theory behind the law dates back a long time and the theory had something to do with the possibility of the air-cooled engines overheating if they were stopped in traffic.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 3:07 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect, because I've consistently heard different, and a couple of minutes of Googling just now is consistent with what I said, and not what you said. I'd have to see a citation to the California Vehicle code where a motorcycle is excused from the requirement that a vehicle travel within a lane and signal, etc when changing lanes, and also a 15 mph speed limit.

Of course, like I said, any individual cop could establish a 15 mph speed limit and that could be where that came from. My search indicated that the California Highway Patrol actually has formal guidelines for its cops in interpreting the generic unsafe driving law with regard to lane splitting, and they don't include a 15 mph speed limit.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 3:53 UTC (Sat) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] (4 responses)

State of California Driver Handbook: "Although it is not illegal to share lanes with motorcycles, it is unsafe."

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 22:39 UTC (Sat) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (3 responses)

And in case it isn't clear, this backs up my claim that it's legal to split a lane, that there's no declared speed limit when you do, and that it is illegal to drive between lanes.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 25, 2013 6:26 UTC (Mon) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link] (2 responses)

Driving between lanes is definitely legal in California, but CHP does tell motorcyclists to keep within 10MPH of traffic; cruising along at 35mph when other traffic is stop-and-go would be considered unsafe driving

http://www.chp.ca.gov/programs/lanesplitguide.html

"Lane splitting in a safe and prudent manner is not illegal in the state of California.

The term lane splitting, sometimes known as lane sharing, filtering or white-lining, refers to the process of a motorcyclist riding between lanes of stopped or slower moving traffic or moving between lanes to the front of traffic stopped at a traffic light."

"Travel at a speed that is no more than 10 MPH faster than other traffic -- danger increases at higher speed differentials."

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 25, 2013 7:07 UTC (Mon) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (1 responses)

Driving between lanes is definitely legal in California,

Nope. The quotation from someone at the California Highway Patrol does uses the phrase "between lanes," but obviously doesn't mean that. If you read it in context, you see this author is using the term "lane" to refer to a line of cars. Yes, it's legal to drive between two lines of cars, but the normal definition of lane, and the one used in the motor vehicle code, is the pavement, not the vehicles on it. Strictly speaking, there isn't even any space between two adjacent lanes, but it could refer to straddling the border between the lanes. That's the way some motorcyclists do it, and it is not legal. A motorcycle, like any other vehicle, must drive entirely within a lane, following specific procedures to move from one to another. That's why the terms are "lane splitting" and "lane sharing" and not "lane ignoring."

As I understand it, the only thing about the California vehicle code that makes lane splitting legal is that there's nothing that says you can't, whereas in other jurisdictions there's something that says you can't pass a vehicle in the same lane. I.e. the California code doesn't give special license to a motorcylist to e.g. straddle two lanes.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 25, 2013 8:35 UTC (Mon) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link]

> The quotation from someone at the California Highway Patrol does uses the phrase "between lanes," but obviously doesn't mean that. If you read it in context, you see this author is using the term "lane" to refer to a line of cars.

"lane sharing, filtering or white-lining, refers to the process of a motorcyclist riding between lanes of stopped or slower moving traffic"

White-lining is rather suggestive synonym, don't you think? So if you're right about their use of terminology, then no, the context wasn't clear. White-lining sure sounds like "lane straddling" to me.

On the other hand, I don't see that staying on one side of the line or not makes much practical difference to the California drivers (human and computer) who need to watch out for these faster-moving motorcycles when changing lanes, so this wasn't really a key point -- I'm done trying to figure out what the policy really is, since I don't ride a motorcycle.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 7:37 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (11 responses)

Filtering by two-wheelers (human or engine powered) is legal in the UK. There is recent case law affirming this.

Also, have to take issue with the the article's claim that the car is amazing, and that before the car it would take "all day" to travel 72 km. Before the car there was the bicycle, and it is within many people's ability, with only a small amount of training, to maintain 15 to 20 km/h on a bicycle on unpaved roads. Which would be just under 5 hours to 3½ hours.

Further, the car's ability to cover distance in reasonable amounts of time is only amazing when relatively few others wish to do so at the same time. When that is not the case, e.g. as is typical for 2 to 5 hours / day in and around major urban areas across many parts of the world, the car's terrible space inefficiency gives an amazing *inability* to make reasonable progress, as everyone sits in pollution spewing traffic jams, with average journey times often lower than they would achieve on a bicycle.

With more and more of us living in urban areas, the personal car becomes ever more impractical.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 14:13 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (10 responses)

Before the car there was the bicycle, and it is within many people's ability, with only a small amount of training, to maintain 15 to 20 km/h on a bicycle on unpaved roads.

Cars actually were invented before bicycle. Centuries before, in fact. Even if you'll narrow-down and exclude all these steam-powered wagons cars still come before bicycle. Compare history of the bicycle with history of the automobile. It's possible to twist definition of bicycle and definition of car enough to somehow make sure bicycle come before cars but it'll be pretty unnatural definitions.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 15:45 UTC (Sat) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

While an interesting factoid I don't see how it is related to the substance of the previous posters point.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 18:01 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (8 responses)

Regardless of exactly date very early prototypical automobiles were first made, it's utterly irrelevant to the question of the transport commonly available to people. The bicycle was in mass use *long* before cars were ever produced commercially (and then, in small numbers to begin with, available only to the very rich). The bicycle continued to be more available to the masses for quite some time after.

The only twisting going on is in your comment, I'm sorry. :)

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 21:14 UTC (Sat) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (7 responses)

Regardless of exactly date very early prototypical automobiles were first made, it's utterly irrelevant to the question of the transport commonly available to people.

Ok. So now we redefine terms to mean "transport commonly available to people". Got that. No problem, you still lose: typical daily distance for novices in bicycle touring is 50km and unless you are professional (which should be excluded by your definition as irrelevant aberration) weekend tour distance is recommended to be 80-100km. Pretty close to this 72km stretch which was discussed above, isn't it?

The bicycle was in mass use *long* before cars were ever produced commercially (and then, in small numbers to begin with, available only to the very rich). The bicycle continued to be more available to the masses for quite some time after.

Depends in the country, really. China and Vietnam used bicycles extensively in XXI century (that means: they still use them today), but in US they were only popular as a tool for transportation for a couple of decades at the end of XIX century. 72km was, indeed, something you needed the whole day to travel back then (bikes from light allows and paved roads everywhere was not something which was common back then) and it's still not something people in poor countries do twice per day on bicycle.

Technology which makes bicycle capable to making at least couple of 72km trips per day don't come before car no matter how you twist it.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 23, 2013 21:45 UTC (Sat) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (6 responses)

I'm not redefining anything. My original comment referred to "people", the original comment in the article referred to "our ancestors". To interpret the context as anything other than what applied to people living back then in a broad, plural sense is unreasonable, and only one someone trolling for an irrelevant argument might make. ;)

Yes, you're correct there were prototypical cars a long time ago, before even bicycles - slightly interesting, thanks. They were though very slow, impractical and very very *very* *few* in number - in no way available to people generally, such as "our ancestors".

Feel free to continue arguing that point though, I won't respond. ;)

As for distance, 72 km is well within the capabilities of many people, with a limited amount of training, from a few months to maximum a year (depending on pre-existing fitness). Humans actually have remarkable endurance. It's one of the few physiological characteristics we excel at in the animal world (least, amongst mammals), other than brain power. We used to survive by chasing, nominally faster, animals to exhaustion. Distances of 160 to 200 km are easily achievable within a day by average humans, on bicycles on paved roads, with just a year or so of adaption to the bicycle, as long as they eat underway. They won't do it at the speed of professional cyclists, but they can do it none the less.

As a data-point, my great-auntie used to cycle 40 km to find food during the dutch winter famine in WWII. On a bicycle with no tyres - which is far far more inefficient than with tyres. She had before then been no great cyclist (no more than normal dutch), never mind being a professional cyclist, and she would have quite under-nourished. Also, go to any road cycling club to find examples that will prove what I'm what telling.

Given your comment about paved roads, it seems you havn't actually read my comment. My speed and time estimates were for *unpaved* roads. With paved roads, sustainable speeds for average humans *increase* to 20 to 25 km/h and journey times for 72 km go down to under 3 hours.

That's definitely not all day. Indeed, it's short enough you could go early, get some business done, and make the return journey (though, probably better to stay the night).

A fit, but average, man on a bicycle can do distances in a day that would kill a horse, if you tried to make it do the same.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 24, 2013 13:09 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (4 responses)

As a data-point, my great-auntie used to cycle 40 km to find food during the dutch winter famine in WWII.

Was it 40 km one way or was it 40 km + 40 km? Even if later (80km/day journey) it's still pretty close to one 72 km journey per day.

That's definitely not all day. Indeed, it's short enough you could go early, get some business done, and make the return journey (though, probably better to stay the night).

Please read again the words you wrote (I've highlighted them). If it's "better to stay the night" then it means 72 km journey took the "whole day". If you want talk in layman terms then "whole day journey" is something which can only be done once per day.

A fit, but average, man on a bicycle can do distances in a day that would kill a horse, if you tried to make it do the same.

Yup - but 72km is about what you can reach in a day. You can try to push for two such journeys in the same day if you really are desperate but for that you need paved roads (which come after car because they were mostly built for cars) and way-above-average-driver. Which returns us back to "72km journey takes the whole day".

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Feb 25, 2013 6:32 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (3 responses)

The comment in the article, and my replies, are explicitly about the time taken to travel 72 km. Again, that's well within the capability of an average, mildly fit human, who otherwise doesn't cycle particularly far otherwise.

Such people probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing the round trip, and would likely be more comfortable staying the night. Someone with a bit more experience of cycling, but still otherwise ordinary and average, could complete the round-trip within a day. I imagine that, during the cycling boom in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, prior to the prevalence of the car, that that would not have been an insignificant proportion of the population.

The round-trip probably not being comfortable for those not adapted to cycling in *no way* changes the fact that the original comment in the article, that just the 72 km journey alone would take all day, is not quite right. Indeed, establishing exactly how far you can go in a day without a car wasn't even the main point of my comment. Rather it was meant to be a comment on the practicality and sustainability of the car as mass personal transport in a world where we increasingly live in more densely populated urban areas. Beyond some density of ownership and use, the car ends up being *slower* than many other forms of transport.

You've managed to derail that, already some-what off-topic, point into a fairly pointless nitpickery through shifting the goal-posts of context. Well done.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Mar 5, 2013 11:07 UTC (Tue) by emj (guest, #14307) [Link] (2 responses)

There might have been nit pickery, but it was an interesting discussion. In my view with paved roads biking 74km per day is easy, but 160km per day doesn't feel like something I would like to do more than once or twice a week. The problem with going longer distances in a straight line might be that the roads that are best for that kind of travel might be too car oriented.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Mar 5, 2013 22:19 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

paved roads are primarily a car legacy, paved roads are worse for livestock than unpaved roads as well as being very expensive to build and maintain.

Yes the Romans built paved roads, but they built them to march their infantry along, not to help commerce.

self-driving cars and lane splitting

Posted Mar 6, 2013 7:36 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Modern paved roads were lobbied for and started to be built for cyclists, before the motor-car existed (other than some very rare, prototypical mechanical carriages): http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/

Energy efficiency

Posted Feb 27, 2013 23:58 UTC (Wed) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

I have to agree with you that human can travel amazing differences on a bike. Even living in Holland you can surprise people by say you can travel 50km in two hours. I've also done cycling trips and figured out that you can average 10km/h over a whole day including all breaks for eating without even really trying.

But one thing I found interesting was that if you look up energy efficiency of travel for animals (in Joules per km) human are fairly average and eagles do the best. If you you include humans on a bike then we handily beat every other animal. Bikes are a very efficient form of transport.

The only reason modern bikes took so long to invent is that the materials for needed for the gears and chains (also needed for cars) just didn't exist.

not enough testing yet

Posted Feb 23, 2013 10:00 UTC (Sat) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (1 responses)

There is only one fatality per 100 million vehicle miles in the US, so 400k miles of testing isn't enough to conclude that Google's vehicles are safer than human drivers.

not enough testing yet

Posted Feb 24, 2013 21:18 UTC (Sun) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

Fender benders and other minor accidents occur a lot more often than fatal road accidents. I suppose the frequency of these involving the Google car(s) as compared to the frequency of similar mishaps in the general driving population could already tell us something about the (current) safety of self-driving cars.

Traffic jams & self driving cars

Posted Feb 26, 2013 14:36 UTC (Tue) by appie (guest, #34002) [Link]

It could prove very useful for cars to be automobile only during traffic jams first. I get the impression that most traffic jams and indeed rush hour situations are caused by humans not being able to weave into traffic and not being able to react in a timely fashion (not keeping enough distance in some cases) causing a person to hit the brakes, then everyone at the rear needs to respond, etc.
I think if all cars during rush hour would be equipped with computers and the human driver would cede control to the computer, the cars would be able to safely merge into lanes with reasonable and constant speed and keeping a certain speed, being able to react rather more swiftly and effectively than any human could.

ELC: Google learns to drive

Posted Feb 28, 2013 13:29 UTC (Thu) by heijo (guest, #88363) [Link]

"No plans for a product?"

Can these guys please hurry up?

We kind of need this ASAP, you know.


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