The return of Iceweasel
Any distribution of Mozilla software which diverges from the official tarballs must use a different name unless specific approval has been obtained from Mozilla. Debian's version does indeed differ in a number of ways. The project could seek approval from Mozilla to call its version of the browser "Firefox," but that approval does not help others who may wish to redistribute the software after receiving it from Debian. Also, the Debian Firefox build omits the official logos, since they carry a non-free license; that is another change which runs afoul of the trademark rules.
In the 2005 discussion, the Debian Project had seemingly come to a resolution with the Mozilla Foundation, as represented by Gervase Markham, where Debian would be trusted to make reasonable changes and the omission of the logos was condoned. All seemed well, and Debian has been shipping Firefox under this understanding for over a year. In February of this year, however, Mike Connor from Mozilla Corporation posted a bug report with the Debian project. This bug, marked "serious," stated that shipping a browser called "Firefox" was a trademark violation:
Under the previous understanding, the Mozilla Foundation had seemingly concluded that it could trust Debian to be judicious in its patches to Firefox. The Mozilla Corporation, instead, is taking a harder line:
The conversation then lapsed until September 18, when Mr. Connor restarted it. His position has not softened:
Anybody familiar with the Debian Project will know that asking it to "bend the DFSG a little" tends not to go over very well.
Mozilla's immediate complaint is about the omission of the official logo, a change which had seemingly been approved back in 2005. But Mr. Connor is also taking issue with a number of the other patches shipped by Debian, and has repeatedly said that every patch that the distribution applies must be approved by the Mozilla Corporation ahead of time.
So what happened to the previous understanding? It appears that the shift to the Mozilla Corporation has brought a new approach to trademark policies - and new people into the trademark enforcement role. Meanwhile, the understanding that the Debian Project thought it had was never really codified onto a piece of paper with the requisite signatures - and, as a result, it is easy for the Mozilla Corporation to change. A cardinal rule for dealing with corporations is to always assume that the people you are dealing with will soon be replaced by others with a much more hostile attitude; that would appear to be what has happened here. With regard to the logo:
The Debian developers have no intention of going against Mozilla's wishes. Eric Dorland, one of the Debian Firefox maintainers, did ask for some time, however:
The response was not particularly sympathetic:
Eric also asked for clarification on the patch review policy, wondering if it applied even to security updates. The answer was clear:
As for your straw man about security bugs, what security bugs would you be fixing with your own patches? If there are security bugs, they should be fixed upstream, not in your own tree.
Many people do not consider security to be a "straw man," however. Debian stable currently includes Firefox 1.0.4, which is no longer supported by the Mozilla developers. So Debian must backport its own security fixes, and may not want to wait for the Mozilla bureaucracy to review those fixes before putting them out. The Mozilla response here is that users should simply be force-upgraded to a supported version; that is, indeed, what a number of distributors do, but people are not always happy about it. There are not many other projects which force upgrades in this manner.
The end result of all this, as expressed by Steve Langasek:
Eric Dorland has stated that he will be changing the name of the browser soon. Previously, this scenario has been described as the "Iceweasel" approach - but Eric has not said what name he will be using. He has asked if Debian sarge can continue to ship "firefox," or whether the name will have to be changed in the stable distribution; that question has not yet been answered.
Debian is not the only project to express some frustration with Mozilla; consider this message sent to the Fedora advisory board in August on why Firefox security updates tend to be slow in coming:
See also this message from last June on problems the Ubuntu developers have had in keeping Firefox secure in their distribution.
The Mozilla project has, mainly via the Firefox browser, changed the way people work with the web. It has brought millions of people into the community of free software users and ended the destructive domination of a single, proprietary browser. Firefox is good stuff, and we are far richer for its existence.
One cannot help wondering, however, if the Mozilla Corporation, now one year old, isn't losing touch with the free software community it is ostensibly part of. Releasing software under a free license means losing control over what happens to it, but Mozilla appears to be having a hard time letting go. The result makes life harder for Linux distributors, and for Linux users as well.
Nobody really wants to fork Firefox. The Mozilla Corporation, however,
would appear to be requiring distributors to do exactly that, whether they
want to or not. No distributor has any interest in shipping Iceweasel, but
it appears that a number of us will be using it anyway - or, perhaps,
looking harder at some of the other free browsers out there.
Posted Sep 25, 2006 17:44 UTC (Mon)
by ismail (subscriber, #11404)
[Link] (20 responses)
Posted Sep 25, 2006 17:49 UTC (Mon)
by rvfh (guest, #31018)
[Link] (18 responses)
Unfortunately, Konqueror does not like as many sites as Firefox, and
Google Mail is the reason why I still need Firefox... I do use Konqueror for everything else as much as I can though.
Posted Sep 25, 2006 17:53 UTC (Mon)
by ismail (subscriber, #11404)
[Link] (10 responses)
[1] http://dot.kde.org/1152645965/
Posted Sep 25, 2006 18:02 UTC (Mon)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (9 responses)
And firefox is pretty secure browser. I wouldn't trust konquerer anymore then I'd trust firefox.
Personally I use Epiphany browser, which is the 'Gnome' official browser. A lot simplier and cleaner interface then firefox and it uses the same rendering engine. Galeon browser was nice and it is being slowly integrated into Epiphany.
Also they have extensions for Epiphany for some of the more popular firefox extensions. (greasemonkey, mouse gestures, etc)
Posted Sep 25, 2006 18:21 UTC (Mon)
by cventers (guest, #31465)
[Link] (6 responses)
> Maybe. It's kinda odd that people ended up with a webkit fork of khtml
I think this had a lot to do with differing goals of KDE and Apple. The
Of course, things weren't always totally out of sync; for example,
The Unity project has mixed reactions from the KDE community. Some people
What I love about Konqueror is that the memory footprint is tiny,
In years of heavy browsing with Konqueror, it is rare for me to have to
> And firefox is pretty secure browser. I wouldn't trust konquerer
It is my personal observation and opinion that Konqueror is a trillion
I used to be a huge fan of the 'fox when I used Windows, but after
Knowing now what I have just learned about the Mozilla Foundation, I'm
Posted Sep 25, 2006 20:04 UTC (Mon)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 25, 2006 22:41 UTC (Mon)
by cventers (guest, #31465)
[Link]
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060925-7818.html
Posted Sep 26, 2006 16:14 UTC (Tue)
by vmole (guest, #111)
[Link] (3 responses)
The memory footprint of Konqerour is only "tiny" if you are running KDE, and have already payed the price of the KDE libs. As a standalone under GNOME or whatever, it might still be smaller than Firefox; I don't know. But "tiny"?
Posted Sep 26, 2006 18:20 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Posted Sep 28, 2006 8:17 UTC (Thu)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 28, 2006 16:36 UTC (Thu)
by vmole (guest, #111)
[Link]
Splitting the footprint doesn't change it. If you don't otherwise use those shared libraries, then it doesn't matter how small the konqueror binary is; the total footprint must include those libraries, since they are loaded solely to support konqueror. The fact that they can support other KDE binaries is irrelevent.
The other comment claims the total is still around half the total for Firefox, so I guess I'll give it another try. If only KDE weren't so ugly... :-) (NOTE SMILEY! I'M EXPRESSING PERSONAL OPINION ON A MATTER OF TASTE. THAT'S ALL. NO NEED TO FIGHT ABOUT IT.)
Posted Sep 26, 2006 16:30 UTC (Tue)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link]
Pretty secure compared to what? It has had more than it's fair share of
Yes, Internet Explorer may be even worse in regard to security
Posted Sep 28, 2006 8:15 UTC (Thu)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link]
I certainly trust konqueror more than firefox. Its anti-popup feature is designed in a more
user-friendly way which allows it to be on all the time (user friendly, just-works security is a great
achievement), and it actually works. Secondly, it seems to be designed based on solid understanding and best principles, rather than
trying to take market share from IE. Extensions are installed in the normal, distro way, rather than
being allowed directly from a url on the web. It's only recently that firefox has enforced
pre-authorisation for downloads. Before that, the bad security vs. competitiveness issues in firefox
were pretty obvious for all to see. I'm not sure that has changed, despite some fixing of gaping
holes as afterthoughts.
Posted Sep 25, 2006 18:32 UTC (Mon)
by cventers (guest, #31465)
[Link] (3 responses)
I don't know if they are still doing this, but Google was repeatedly
Posted Sep 26, 2006 7:27 UTC (Tue)
by edomaur (subscriber, #14520)
[Link] (1 responses)
I do not use FireFox on my Linux box anymore, only on this win32 one.
Posted Sep 28, 2006 8:19 UTC (Thu)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link]
Posted Sep 26, 2006 18:15 UTC (Tue)
by mdhirsch (guest, #5924)
[Link]
I have konqueror 3.5.4, I think.
Posted Sep 26, 2006 11:59 UTC (Tue)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 26, 2006 12:29 UTC (Tue)
by rvfh (guest, #31018)
[Link]
Posted Sep 13, 2007 11:16 UTC (Thu)
by fmasotti (guest, #47367)
[Link]
Posted Oct 5, 2006 15:58 UTC (Thu)
by i3839 (guest, #31386)
[Link]
Or more generally: Why are all browsers tied to the IDE they're supposed to be used with?
Posted Sep 25, 2006 18:09 UTC (Mon)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (7 responses)
I can't see this policy causing anything other then confusion with bug reports, so I really understand the mozilla attitude.
David Lang
Posted Sep 25, 2006 18:28 UTC (Mon)
by cventers (guest, #31465)
[Link]
Really? That's pretty shocking!
> I can't see this policy causing anything other then confusion with bug
Well, I can see where such a move by Debian would (if it is true) be a
Posted Sep 25, 2006 20:06 UTC (Mon)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2006 22:05 UTC (Mon)
by joey (guest, #328)
[Link]
http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/m/mozilla...
Or you could look at the actual patches, which probably do include code from newer versions, and judge for yourself how well it's being done. Which I've not done, but I'll trust the references to "backporting" in the changelog over your rumor.
Posted Sep 25, 2006 23:11 UTC (Mon)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (2 responses)
Makes perfect sense to me. With Free software and probably any other software stuff authors don't realy have a very good track record of not breaking something. Changing dependancies, changing configuration files. Introducing new bugs.
With Debian Stable it's stable as in 'unchanging'.
I mean with people's experiances in other distros it would seem obvious...
So he updates.. and now firefox is broken. Ok.. fixed that for him.
It's a never ending cycle.
Same thing with Fedora. They do huge updates of X right mid-life of the distro. How the hell does that make sense? What is the point of doing releases at all if your going to do that? It would be easier on the users just to track changes to 'Fedora Core Forever' and get breakage in small bite sized portions.
Same thing with every other distro that I've ever used. If they do version changes mid-life of the distro then stuff gets broken. There is a reason why authors do have versions. Because different versions are pretty much different programs. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in large ways.
I don't realy mind that a whole lot most of the time.
On a personal desktop, who cares? I like having new versions. But if it's a machine that I just want to keep running why would I want to fix stuff when I shouldn't have to? So I like it when distros backport security fixes.
Of course I know it's not a automatic fix for breakage coming from updates.. Bad things still happen. But it's a good start.
Posted Sep 25, 2006 23:53 UTC (Mon)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link]
in and of itself it can be a good thing.
however prior articles here on LWN about firefox upgrades on Debian have stated that debian developers decided that backporting mozilla patches was too hard and so they re-branded the new version as the old version number as the 'patch'
If this is no longer being done then good for them.
however, given the number of changes that are takeing place in firefox (many in response to holes discovered in it) updateing the old version to fix all the bugs found in the new version sounds like a nearly impossible task (similar to backporting all bugfixes in the kernel to a prior version, once the versions diverge more then a little bit the patches no longer apply to both cleanly)
Posted Sep 27, 2006 17:05 UTC (Wed)
by Lovechild (guest, #3592)
[Link]
Posted Sep 26, 2006 6:23 UTC (Tue)
by hooty (subscriber, #7374)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2006 18:44 UTC (Mon)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Sep 25, 2006 19:12 UTC (Mon)
by alonso (guest, #2828)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 25, 2006 20:43 UTC (Mon)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Yes they are both restrictions, but one is a restriction of a name which
Posted Sep 28, 2006 8:20 UTC (Thu)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2006 17:51 UTC (Fri)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link]
What part of the definition of free software doesn't allow this restriction?
The restriction on the software we're talking about is this: You can't distribute any derivative of this software under the name "Firefox" without Mozilla's permission.
For all the value I see in free software, I don't see any in free naming.
Posted Sep 25, 2006 23:49 UTC (Mon)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (5 responses)
why is this acceptable for Debian, and Evil for Mozilla?
Posted Sep 26, 2006 6:19 UTC (Tue)
by DYN_DaTa (guest, #34072)
[Link]
Posted Sep 26, 2006 8:46 UTC (Tue)
by ballombe (subscriber, #9523)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 27, 2006 17:54 UTC (Wed)
by hooty (subscriber, #7374)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 28, 2006 7:10 UTC (Thu)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
Posted Sep 26, 2006 10:06 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2006 19:01 UTC (Mon)
by jmorris42 (guest, #2203)
[Link] (9 responses)
People are still talking in terms of avoiding a fork... news flash: Seamonkey IS the fork, only nobody is willing to come on out and say it. Forget worrying about bruised egos at a for profit (regardless how they spin it) corporation and worry about what is best for Free Software. Anything wothwhile in Firefox's codebase will end up in Seamonkey so what is the problem with cutting out FF? Most distros ship Mozilla and/or Seamonkey already so why duplicate the effort, especially if the only value in Firefox (the name recognition) is going away?
Posted Sep 25, 2006 19:39 UTC (Mon)
by dirtyepic (guest, #30178)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 26, 2006 11:54 UTC (Tue)
by mgh (guest, #5696)
[Link] (1 responses)
install clean ff and tb
open ff, load 2-3 large sites
measure memory useage
open sm, load 2-3 large sites (exactly the same ones)
measure memory usage...
typically was 20-30% less the ff+tb last time I tried.
What made me change in the end was the level of plugin support
Posted Sep 26, 2006 18:19 UTC (Tue)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2006 20:44 UTC (Mon)
by Los__D (guest, #15263)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 26, 2006 0:01 UTC (Tue)
by Richard_J_Neill (subscriber, #23093)
[Link] (1 responses)
Deleting /usr/lib/gam_server has improved Fx hugely though. No longer do I need a 4GB swap file to cope with 2 day's worth of memory leaks.
Posted Sep 26, 2006 2:13 UTC (Tue)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
I always tried to use something like Galeon, which seemed to be the direction that they decided go with with firefox.
To each their own.
Posted Sep 26, 2006 12:19 UTC (Tue)
by KaiRo (subscriber, #1987)
[Link] (2 responses)
Surely some people don't like the all-in-one approach of it, and others just love it, like us, who are working on getting that project into the future.
If someone wants to make SeaMonkey a "Firefox fork", most of our SeaMonkey developer community would object. We have, as said, a different, integrated approach and would not be happy with forcing Firefox style upon us.
SeaMonkey is cool, and is a good product, that's true. It even includes a browser as a main application part. It's not Firefox though, and never will be.
Posted Sep 26, 2006 18:43 UTC (Tue)
by jmorris42 (guest, #2203)
[Link]
A fork is when a new group of developers (B) take a codebase written by group A in a different direction. Mozilla Corp would be group A, they forked their codebase into the original Mozilla (integrated product) and Firefox + Thunderbird and then abandoned the Mozilla fork. Group B (the Seamonkey devels) have now taken over that fork. So while it didn't happen like most forks, the current situation IS a fork, with two seperate groups maintaining two development branches. Currently SeaMonkey is bringing most of the improvements from Firefox/Thunderbird into their tree and almost all FF extensions work on SeaMonkey.
This situation is not likely to last forever. See BSD. Code will continue to cross polinate between the branches but over time there will be divergence. Eventually patches from one tree will no longer cleanly apply to the other.
It is worth a moment to explain why this is almost certain to occur. Consider. Moz Corp explicitly abandoned Moz as an unneeded development burden. Thus they are highly unlikely to accept any patches from SeaMonkey devels into their tree that makes the lives of the SeaMonkey people any easier unless it also adds some major new feature desirable to FF users. Meanwhile SeaMonkey will be trying to play catchup with FF and at the same time will probably undertake innovation of their own. Creative and skilled devels aren't likely to remain passive forever and any feature they add which doesn't end up being accepted into FF isn't likely to be deleted from their own tree just because of FF's rejection. Thus a full two way fork will eventually appear, and while that first example will likely trigger some flaming and debate each successive one will involve less of it.
The Free Software camp, more importantly the major distribution maintainers, need to be considering which fork is likely to be easier to integrate in the long term. I'd contend that FF just isn't interested in the needs of the distributions that produce longterm stable "enterprise" products. It is not yet known whether the SeaMonkey camp will, but are new enough the major distros might be in a better position to able to influence their development. (The same arguments regarding longterm product deployment would also apply to many corporate rollouts of FF on Windows but are not something I care about.)
Questions helpful to that debate are:
1. What does FF+TB bring to the table that SeaMonkey doesn't? And forget name recognition because by this time next year RHEL and SUSE are probably going to be the only distros calling the software by that recognizable name. However, whatever the name FF is the #2 browser behind IE, thus most likely to be compatible with the most sites on the Internet.
2. What does SeaMonkey bring to the table that FF+TB doesn't? As currently packaged (from both RH and rpms available from the SeaMonkey project) it allows the extra bits (mail, chat, etc) to be discarded if unneeded. Most FF extensions install on SeaMonkey. But those aren't arguments FOR SeaMonkey.
3. Which project is more likely to backport security fixes or will be easier for a distro maintainer to do so? We already know Moz Corp. is unhelpful almost to the point of being actively hostile to the needs of enterprise computing and the stable longlived distributions needed for it.
Posted Sep 28, 2006 0:32 UTC (Thu)
by jschrod (subscriber, #1646)
[Link]
Many of us, me included, have the impression that the SeaMonkey developers are not as hostile against Linux, and thus we have another reason to prefer SeaMonkey, beyond the technical arguments.
Joachim
Posted Sep 25, 2006 22:21 UTC (Mon)
by joey (guest, #328)
[Link] (3 responses)
And I'm impressed, it's actually customisable enough that I can make it set up the same as I have firefox set up, and it has several nice features not in firefox. And seems faster too.
Posted Sep 27, 2006 17:09 UTC (Wed)
by Lovechild (guest, #3592)
[Link]
Also Ross Burton wrote a Deli.cio.us plugin.
Posted Sep 28, 2006 5:06 UTC (Thu)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2006 11:19 UTC (Fri)
by cortana (subscriber, #24596)
[Link]
/* from <http://www.floppymoose.com/> */
object[classid$=":D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000"],
Posted Sep 26, 2006 6:18 UTC (Tue)
by error27 (subscriber, #8346)
[Link] (1 responses)
Mike Conner is a _ _ _ _.
Thanks for delaying Etch Mozilla Corp.
Posted Sep 26, 2006 16:07 UTC (Tue)
by sbergman27 (guest, #10767)
[Link]
Although I'm aware of their "goal" to release Etch by December, I'm betting on at least another year before the current issues, and the ones which will almost certainly spring up between now and the actual release, all get resolved.
Posted Sep 26, 2006 16:36 UTC (Tue)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link] (2 responses)
In a way it is very similar to the license behind QMail, which is widely
The very idea that Debian should change the DFSG to suit Mozilla is
Posted Sep 29, 2006 13:49 UTC (Fri)
by sepreece (guest, #19270)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2006 17:59 UTC (Fri)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link]
Even more to the point, if Debian uses a different name, then "you" don't even have to worry about changing the name when you modify and redistribute Debian (or part thereof).
Posted Sep 26, 2006 17:49 UTC (Tue)
by sbergman27 (guest, #10767)
[Link] (1 responses)
Sometimes, people criticize the duplication of effort in the OSS community. They moan that Gnome and KDE should merge, that Koffice is just a waste since we have OpenOffice, etc. To be honest, there was a time that I kinda thought along those lines.
This is a great example of why a reasonable degree of choice is a good thing.
Any organization, no matter how friendly and well thought of today, can turn evil, or begin to ignore parts of the community which contributed to their success, which amounts to about the same thing.
The fact that the code is open-source does not completely side step this problem when it occurs. It's *hard* to "just fork" complex software like FF, Thunderbird, and OO.o. Just look at how long X suffered under the tender mercies of XFree86 before the community forked it. This would never have gone on so long but for the fact that X, like FF, Thunderbird, and OO.o is a hard thing to fork.
To make matters worse, the *more* successful the project becomes, the *more likely* it is to start seeing various parts of the community as ants which can be safely stepped on to focus on the really important users.
I've been looking at Epiphany for my Gnome users. It's a nice browser with a much nicer memory footprint if one is already running a Gnome desktop.
Ditto Konqueror and KDE.
So all that "duplication of effort" was actually, among other things, an insurance policy.
We in the Linux community had a lot to do with FF's popularity. I suspect that an inordinate number of the people who campaigned for FF, recommended it to others, and generally put it on the map, were us Linux people.
I fear that now the only thing that the Mozilla Corporation will notice is dollars. Remember that they are making millions of dollars off of our Google searches when we, and the people we have recommended it to, search the web with Firefox.
If those FF percentages in the browser use reports started to drop a bit at the expense of "other", the Google dollars began dipping a little, and a few news stories came out about FF "losing steam" with a few of us former users agreeing about it instead of criticizing the report, I'll bet a few people at Mozilla Corporation might just take notice. (The problem being what, then, to recommend to Windows users who have fewer OSS options.)
Though by that time, their notice may not matter. They might have to *win* their Linux market share back. I'm already seeing that epiphany is an excellent browser, better integrated into Gnome than FF. And on my servers that run many users' desktops, I can see some pretty impressive memory savings from using Epiphany and Evolution, as opposed to FF and Thunderbird. (Yes, I was surprised at how much more efficient Evo is than Thunderbird, but it's true.)
Posted Oct 5, 2006 8:49 UTC (Thu)
by jdobbs (guest, #40930)
[Link]
If Debian end up maintaining a fork of Firefox (i.e. a fork that removes trademarks, and applies security-fixes to unsupported browser versions) why doesn't Debian apply for some of those millions from Google? If Google doesn't want to pay Debian, then the Debian fork could disable the 'thing that Firefox does that is worth millions to Google'.
Posted Sep 27, 2006 10:26 UTC (Wed)
by chuliomartinez (guest, #37450)
[Link]
Posted Sep 27, 2006 19:29 UTC (Wed)
by mikov (guest, #33179)
[Link] (1 responses)
It is simply not acceptable for one browser window to lock up or slow down all other browser windows. It happens all the time with Firefox - when opening PDFs, Java plugins, AJAX apps, etc. When a Java applet locks up (it happens, for example, when opening synchronous sockets in the applet) it is impossible to close the browser window without killing the browser and thus closing _all_ windows.
A more subtle manifestation of the same problem is that opening a second tab in the background makes the current tab visibly sluggish while the other one is loading.
When I have GoogleMail and Writely open in the background, all my browsing slows down noticeably.
As far as I know this is a fundamental design problem in Firefox - everything, even separate browser windows, runs in the same thread using cooperative multitasking. This may have been acceptable initially, but not any more. Unfortunately I think the effort needed to redesign it would be enormous, so it isn't likely to happen.
Does anybody has some insights about the design of Konqueror ? How does it deal with the same issues ?
Posted Oct 5, 2006 10:41 UTC (Thu)
by Duncan (guest, #6647)
[Link]
> Does anybody has some insights about the design of
Konqueror can be configured (preferences, performance) to share memory
Another configure option available (same place) for Konqueror is
Duncan
Posted Sep 28, 2006 8:28 UTC (Thu)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2006 9:10 UTC (Fri)
by rwmj (subscriber, #5474)
[Link] (3 responses)
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entr...
Rich.
Posted Sep 29, 2006 9:29 UTC (Fri)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link] (2 responses)
It's interesting. I didn't realise that trademarks apply to such a small
Posted Sep 29, 2006 13:45 UTC (Fri)
by sepreece (guest, #19270)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 29, 2006 18:15 UTC (Fri)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link]
I don't know where the line gets drawn, but based on how broadly the rights have been granted in a few famous trademark cases, I would think someone with trademark rights on a Firefox database manager could stop someone from distributing a Firefox web browser.
Posted Oct 2, 2006 16:14 UTC (Mon)
by proski (subscriber, #104)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 2, 2006 16:34 UTC (Mon)
by Jel (guest, #22988)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 17, 2006 4:01 UTC (Tue)
by jwalden (guest, #41159)
[Link]
They DID try to hijack [the Firebird name], but I forgot that they'd eventually given up and so firefox is the newer name. Actually, if you recall Firebird was the followup to Phoenix, and as names go it was a fairly logical choice with logical consistency with the old name. Their mistake was in thinking that the separate software fields were separate enough to be safe. If you'll also recall they changed the name from Firebird to Firefox when it became clear that doing so was The Right Thing To Do. (Also keep in mind that this was over two years ago; naysayers should get a grip here.) I know that all the "cool" kids in this thread and elsewhere seem to think it's okay to bash Firefox for everything they've ever done now, but reasonable people have never ascribed every Firefox decision to malicious intent and will not start doing so now.
Posted Sep 28, 2006 11:47 UTC (Thu)
by pointwood (guest, #2814)
[Link] (1 responses)
I have been worried about Firefox for quite a while though. It seems
These days I'm mostly using Konqueror, it works great for more or less all
Posted Oct 5, 2006 11:15 UTC (Thu)
by Duncan (guest, #6647)
[Link]
FWIW tho it may not help you, that's one reason I've been impressed with
The minor niggles are mostly as I mentioned due to my choice of light text
A bonus is that BofA was one of the companies (along with AutoZone, which
Duncan
Posted Sep 28, 2006 13:00 UTC (Thu)
by aigarius (subscriber, #7329)
[Link]
(work around "There appears to be no text here!" bug with short LWN comments)
Posted Sep 29, 2006 14:09 UTC (Fri)
by ortalo (guest, #4654)
[Link]
Rodophe
Posted Oct 2, 2006 0:23 UTC (Mon)
by anonymous21 (guest, #30106)
[Link] (1 responses)
Mozilla had drafted a policy whereby you could rename "Mozilla Firefox" to things like "Firefox Community Edition, Debian." Community editions were barred from using the copywritten artwork (as Debian has chosen to do). Dozens of community editions are in different Linux and BSD distros. Many "optimized" or customized builds for Windows and other operating systems were built under this same policy. Is Mozilla now going to go to each of these individually, as they've done with Debian, and tell them that this is no longer an aspect of their trademark policy? Why don't they come out and say exactly what their current policy is & which policies are no longer active? Then, perhaps, all of those other distributions which aren't allowed to call their slightly modified browser "Mozilla Firefox" could get behind a common new name for it.
Posted Oct 11, 2006 7:41 UTC (Wed)
by slef (guest, #14720)
[Link]
Posted Oct 4, 2006 0:42 UTC (Wed)
by jzbiciak (guest, #5246)
[Link]
Firefox is a well-defined product with a rather specific scope and a company you can point at (The Mozilla Foundation) that actively tries to brand products and promote them. They consider this trademark highly valuable. If they do not go out to bat, they risk dilution of the trademark. IIRC, the NPL and MPL permit commercial forks of the Mozilla Firefox codebase. As a result, the Mozilla Foundation has an economic interest in protecting their trademarks from dilution.
Linus, in contrast, was never big on Linux as a trademark until someone else tried to trademark it in an effort to hijack the buzz around the name. After a bit of wrangling, Linux became a registered trademark assigned to Linus Torvalds. No one associated with Linux is too concerned about dilution, though. They're mainly concerned with being hijacked.
Posted Oct 11, 2006 5:57 UTC (Wed)
by lacostej (guest, #2760)
[Link]
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/68112.html
"We shouldn't be prizing cross-platform consistency over integration and innovation, and we certainly shouldn't be doing our utmost to make it difficult for people to experiment with code."
Almost worth an LWN article in itself.
Posted Oct 29, 2006 3:08 UTC (Sun)
by Triona (guest, #41372)
[Link]
Forking is always undesirable, however, the integrity of the free software model, and the assurance of continuity provided by free software licenses are dependent on the ability to fork should it become necessary.
The use of trademarks in the manner being used, essentially as a means of controlling how software is used, significantly weakens the viability of forking as an option to maintain freedom.
While I think FSF was premature in creating a fork, it may ultimately be necessary, and unfortunately, for it to be successful is going to be a very messy process.
Debian's stance may sound idealogical, but as far as I am aware they are legally bound by the charter of their organization to uphold the DFSG - it would be just as illegal to disregard these guidelines as it would to disregard Mozilla's trademark rights.
That leaves the ball in the Mozilla Foundation's court. To stop this from turning into a battle in which everyone loses, they must stop using their trademarks as a means of undermining the licensing of their applications, and provide the guarantee that they will not do so again in the future.
Posted Aug 31, 2007 2:52 UTC (Fri)
by angrykeyboarder (guest, #47090)
[Link]
Use Konqueror and be happy and more secure.The return of Iceweasel
The return of Iceweasel
Thats hopefully will change with Unity[1] project.The return of Iceweasel
Maybe. It's kinda odd that people ended up with a webkit fork of khtml instead of actually contributing back to khtml or something like that.The return of Iceweasel
I shall start out with full disclosure: I am an ardent, long-time The return of Iceweasel
supporter of Konqueror.
> instead of actually contributing back to khtml or something like that.
impression I got was that Apple wasn't always fully committed to
cooperation; additionally, they made certain bug-fixes and advancements
in 'get it out the door fashion' rather than 'make it right fashion'. The
KHTML guys didn't want to pull in every change that seemed like a hack
that they did not understand or trust, and so the two code-bases
diverged.
Konqueror started passing ACID2 shortly after Safari CVS did because the
code shared enough heritage to share the ACID2 work.
are uneasy about switching from the KHTML 'we made' to the WebKit 'they
forked'. But it was pointed out that if we don't like where WebKit is
going, we're free to fork it back to KHTML.
especially compared to Firefox, the performance is absolutely
outstanding, especially compared to Firefox, and the standards compliance
is thorough, especially compared to Firefox. Firefox consumes lots of
memory, leaks more and renders pages a lot slower than Konqueror does.
reach for Firefox in order to use a website. There are a few limited
exceptions, but it's always been the case that the web developer has done
something catastrophically dumb and wrong. And there is an occasional
site which tries to feed code based on User-Agent:, but these sites tend
to work just fine when you tell Konqueror to pretend to be Firefox or IE
when talking to them.
> anymore then I'd trust firefox.
times more secure than Firefox. You don't tend to hear too much about
Konqueror or Safari in terms of security vulnerabilities, but Firefox has
been fighting hole after hole after hole. It is particularly troubling to
learn more about how their political practices interfere with the
distribution of security patches. That alone would be enough for me to
slap a huge black mark on the browser's security status.
switching exclusively to the GNU/Linux desktop some years ago, I couldn't
help but notice Konqueror is better in pretty much every way.
even more convinced than ever that I didn't make the wrong choice.
Be very careful of judging security by hearsay. That is, do not judge The return of Iceweasel
the security of a program based on the number of reported holes, unless
you have good reason to believe that a comparable program is receiving
the same level of scrutiny.
True, but you have to wonder about things like this:The return of Iceweasel
The return of Iceweasel
Typically, I find that the footprint of konqueror (and all its daemons) The return of Iceweasel
is around half that of firefox. I don't run KDE.
No, it really is tiny. However, re-using libraries is a benefit not a disadvantage. The whole point of The return of Iceweasel
common library code is to share it between applications, thereby reducing memory use, increasing
integration, and improving testing and refinement.
The return of Iceweasel
While I agree with you that Firefox is the better "tool" for getting The return of Iceweasel
stuff done over the web (because it works with a larger part of the web),
saying that it's a "pretty secure browser" is just crap.
idiotic bugs. I'm sure that there are more in there. It's a really big
codebase with lots of inter-dependencies without a clear overall design.
(especially having the ActiveX thing tacked on) but that does NOT make
Firefox secure. It's got most of it's default user interface right so it
doesn't automatically install spyware on Windows, but that's not
security.
The return of Iceweasel
Does Google Mail really not work for you? What version of Konqueror are Google Mail
you using?
breaking compatibility in the past by changing the code they were sending
to Konqueror (they choose code based on User-Agent). If Google Mail
doesn't work for you, I suggest retrieving the latest stable version of
Konqueror, and if that doesn't work, tell Konqueror to lie to Google Mail
and claim to be the latest version of Firefox (Tools->Change Browser
Identification->...)
I aggree, this has worked for me. The only thing that sometimes bug me is the Flash and others plugins. They do not seems to run at all.Google Mail
Flash works fine for me (using the debian/ubuntu flash installer package)Google Mail
Google mail works great in Konqueror for me. If I don't change the user agent it ends up in pure HTML mode, but if I etll konqueror to present itself as Firefox to the google.com domain gmail works well in AJAX mode.Google Mail
Google mail works just fine for me (every single item of it) under 3.5.4.Which version?
Indeed, I just switched the agent to FireFox 1.5.0.4 and am reading my
mails in Konqueror. Sweet! Thanks loads!
Which version?
use opera instead is free and is for linux tooThe return of Iceweasel
Where can I download a stand-alone version of Konqueror? Or must it pulled in together with kde-base?The return of Iceweasel
(Konqueror with KDE, Firefox with MSWindows stuff, Safari with Apple stuff, Epiphany with Gnome...)
you say that firefox ships version 1.0.4, however remember that debian decided it was too hard to really backport changes and instead ships the new version under the old version number (in order to comply with their 'now version changes' policy, something that never made sense to me)The return of Iceweasel
> you say that firefox ships version 1.0.4, however remember that debianThe return of Iceweasel
> decided it was too hard to really backport changes and instead ships
> the new version under the old version number (in order to comply with
> their 'now version changes' policy, something that never made sense to
> me)
> reports, so I really understand the mozilla attitude.
really bad thing. I fully understand and agree that Mozilla can do
whatever it wants to with its own code and trademarks. But even in light
of Debian's apparent wrongdoing in release management, I don't think the
Mozilla Foundation's attitude or policy is acceptable. I hope (and
believe) Debian will stick to its guns on the DFSG issue, both for
reasons of creating a quality end-user experience and for reasons of free
software policy.
Ships in etch or in stable? Etch currently has firefox The return of Iceweasel
1.5.dfsg+1.5.0.6-4, which is 1.5.0.6.
Alexander Sack is doing a lot of work to backport firefox security fixes the the version 1.0.4 in Debian stable. Here's the changelog for it so you can verify it yourself:The return of Iceweasel
Did you mean 'No version changes' policy?The return of Iceweasel
Like how my brother was using Ubuntu I installed for him.
Time to update his system to keep it secure.. like I told him too.
Later on he updates.. and now X is broken. Ok.. fixed that for him.
Later on he updates.. and now something else is broken.
that's the policy I'm referring to.The return of Iceweasel
Do we really have to listen to this Fedora X update FUD again, it was proposed and considered like any update request followed by a rejection. Fedora don't do massive updates aside the kernel but that's a rather special case and DaveJ does an amazing job keeping the bugcount down (backporting fixes of any kind in the kernel is timeconsuming compared to rebasing and less error prone).The return of Iceweasel
That is not at all the case, we have backported the fixes in almost all cases. I think one release we did just use the of it to the previous release because all it contained was security fixes. But in general that's not what's been happening and now we are on our own.The return of Iceweasel
The sad consequence of this is that the browser known as "Mozilla firefox" is no more free software, though it's code-base is, and should not be advertised as such.Mozilla firefox is no more free software.
Why? Because you not agree with their policies in copyright? Do you think the same for RedHat? CentOS was born for the same reason!Mozilla firefox is no more free software.
The primary difference is that Firefox is a program wheras Red Hat Mozilla firefox is no more free software.
Enterprise Linux is a collection of programs. The Firefox name naturally
would apply to all uses of that program in any combination with other
programs, operating systems, and contexts, but it is not permitted to do
so. The Red Hat Enterprise Linux name naturally refers to the particular
set of programs and packages put together by Red Hat for enterprise use.
follows the natural use patterns of that name, while the other name
restriction is highly arbitrary and counterproductive for the normal use
patterns of that software and its associated name.
No, because "free software" has a specific meaning, and these restrictions no longer fit it.Mozilla firefox is no more free software.
Mozilla firefox is no more free software.
Debian doesn't allow other projects to use it's name or logo when they modify the code and redistribute it either.Debian isn't free software then either
Simple ... Hypocrisy :)Debian isn't free software then either
For that reason, the non-free Debian logo is not included in the Debian distribution (and two wrong do not make a right).Debian isn't free software then either
That has long been considered a bug and I'm seeing movement to correct it wothin the project recently.Debian isn't free software then either
At Anthony Towns's request, I've picked up this issue and am working on Debian isn't free software then either
it. I've already sent him a long draft with an extensive background and
rationale for the change (much of this information will be familiar to
those who have had a skeptical eye on Debian's licenses on its logos for
years -- but not everyone has troubled themselves to care).
I was hoping to get something done this past weekend, but I suffered a
hard drive failure that has affected my $HOME so I've been trying to piece
that back together.
(I had backups, but they, um, were a little over 2 years old.)
I am learning my painful lesson and have a pair of new drives I'll be
configuring into RAID 1.
At any rate, expect some motion on this soon.
Debian has decided that the restrictions on their own logo is not Debian isn't free software then either
acceptable for Debian.
Thus, the inconsistency you perceive is historical.
It is time for Free systems to simply forget about Firefox and help out with Seamonkey. The entire focus of Firefox is Windows centric and always will be. Renaming it IceWeasel doesn't change the other difficulties dealing with the Mozilla Corp.Seamonkey
Because if Firefox sucks, then Seamonkey blows.Seamonkey
try a test:-Seamonkey
install clean sm
open tb, load a few large emails
and load a few large emails (exactly the same ones)
What about if you don't use thunderbird (like most of us).Seamonkey
Back to "huge box of junk"-style Mozilla? No waySeamonkey
Although Fx+Tb have a lot to say for them, I prefer the old mozilla suite in a lot of ways. In particular, it uses a faster filepicker, and the integration (performance of opening web-links from mail) is much much faster.Seamonkey
Personally I never liked Mozilla.Seamonkey
SeaMonkey (the "M" is capital in the to-be-registered trademark name) is no fork, it's a different approach. It's the suite idea as we knew it from Netscape Communicator and the Mozilla project, just with the current code.Seamonkey
> SeaMonkey is no fork...Seamonkey
But regardless if you want to call it a fork or not, the question remains: For the Mozilla Corporation, Linux is a nuisance, their target system is Windows. (wiz: their release policy and community involvement concerning security patches.) Here on LWN, we are interested in a good supported browser for Linux. (Remember the L in LWN. :-)Seamonkey
This had me taking another look at epiphany. After all, it's essentially firefox with the logo and name changed, which is what mozilla seems to want.epiphany
You might want to check out the epiphany extensions package as well, it contains things like greasemonkey and adblocker plugins.epiphany
I thank you for this comment. I have investigated epiphany and it is most pleasant. Well, aside from the stupidity about dbus not having a sane launch policy, and the lack of a few sanity-saving plugins from firefox (flashblock primarily). Mostly it is a big win: more responsive, smaller footprint, no crazy focus problems.epiphany
FYI, I block Flash in Epiphany by putting this into my custom stylesheet (accessible from the preferences window):epiphany
object[codebase*="swflash.cab"],
object[type="application/x-shockwave-flash"],
embed[type="application/x-shockwave-flash"],
embed[src$=".swf"] {
-moz-binding: url("http://www.floppymoose.com/clickToView.xml#ctv");
}
The one positive development from this is that at least we'll know the answer if there is a crossword puzzle where the clue is:The return of Iceweasel
While I agree with the crossword answer, it's kinda hard to blame them for delaying Etch. While they may be contributing to a delay, the Debian developers are, as per usual, doing their best to throw obstacles in their own way, in the form of resolutions and general bickering.The return of Iceweasel
It's hypocrisy to call this free software. Yes, the license is free, but The return of Iceweasel
Debian can not distribute it and give others the freedom to modify and
redistribute.
regarded as non-free. That one doesn't allow the redistribution of
modified tools, which in practice requires you to run all patches by the
author who decides what goes in and what doesn't, which is exactly the
same situation as with Firefox.
silly. Free software doesn't need Mozilla but there wouldn't be a Mozilla
without free software.
You are, to the best of my knowledge, free to modify and redistribute. You just have to change the name. That doesn't sound at all unreasonable, to me.The return of Iceweasel
The return of Iceweasel
It's hypocrisy to call this free software. Yes, the license is free, but
Debian can not distribute it and give others the freedom to modify and
redistribute.
You are, to the best of my knowledge, free to modify and redistribute. You just have to change the name.
"""One cannot help wondering, however, if the Mozilla Corporation, now one year old, isn't losing touch with the free software community it is ostensibly part of.""" The return of Iceweasel
It's said that the Mozilla Corporation is making millions from Google, for something that Firefox does.The return of Iceweasel
It is sad to see that there are people in charge of one of the flag ships of free/open source, that have such a disrespect for free/open source. I mean common, tomorrow we are not allowed to call our system linux, because it contains patches from distros... And as far as I know Linux is a trademark.The return of Iceweasel
Although I occasionally start Konqueor (and Opera) I mostly use Firefox, but I have to say that sometimes it can really suck. Perhaps these events are the chance for better technology to catch up a little in terms of user share.Other free browsers
> [In Firefox] everything, even separate browser windows,Other free browsers
> runs in the same thread using cooperative multitasking.
> Konqueror ? How does it deal with the same issues ?
space (tho I believe it still uses separate threads) or such that each
launched window is a separate instance. (Multiple tabs still share the
same process space. I'm not sure but I think "detached" tabs continue to
share the same process altho they are then separate windows.) I believe
the default is separate processes for web browsing, shared processes for
local file system browsing, but I've been running fully separate processes
for long enough I can't say for sure /what/ the default is.
preloading -- whether to keep "spare" instances in reserve. There's a
checkbox for preloading one instance after KDE startup, another that
enables preloading additional instances every time you use a prelaoded
instance up, and a spinnerbox for configuring the number of instances to
keep preloaded. (I have it set at two.)
No problem. It seems that Firefox, by this action, is no longer Free Software (was it ever?). The return of Iceweasel
The "firefox" name was hijacked from real free software, and it wasn't the first name change. I'm
not even sure they're legally entitled to the name. Maybe they own "mozilla firefox", but "firefox"?
Doubt it, with prior art and all. So, Debian/Ubuntu should simply go back to calling it the last
reasonable name that was used, or indeed, use IceWeasel, to reflect and warn people about the
non-free status of the project. A simple FAQ entry or dummy package explaining the issue could be
used to let people install it under the name firefox anyway. Phoenix is probably already in used for
other projects too.
Well with the minimum of effort you could have actually checked whether or not they own the word "Firefox", and in fact they do:The return of Iceweasel
Well, honestly, I wasn't that interested, and I'm not familiar with the The return of Iceweasel
USPTO's website, being a citizen of a different country.
field; their trademark is basically just for web browsers; I figured a
software trademark would cover the entire software field. Seems too
narrow to me; if searching for "firefox" on the web complicates finding a
firefox database, then they should have had to prove their right to
override that name, it seems to me.
Trademarks may apply to a company, a particular product, a particular service, etc. I suspect there are more product trademarks than company name trademarks.The return of Iceweasel
There are two kinds of "apply to." The trademark registration tells what Mozilla is using the trademark for. But the trademark gives Mozilla the right to exclude others from using the trademark for lots of similar things too.
The Firefox trademark
Where's the proof?
The "firefox" name was hijacked from real free software
I believe it's a false accusation. Where's the proof? Where's the other "firefox"? If it's free software, as you stated, can I get the source?
Never mind; I was thinking of the firebird database. They DID try to Where's the proof?
hijack that name, but I forgot that they'd eventually given up and so
firefox is the newer name.
Where's the proof?
It is sad to see that Mozilla is starting to forget its roots :(Sad...
Mozilla is mostly interested in the Windows platform - the problems with
security updates on *nix is a clear example of that. Their update
mechanism works fine for Windows, but the *nix world do it differently and
they don't seem to take that seriously :(
the websites I visit. There are a few that doesn't (my bank is one) so I
use Firefox in those cases.
>There are a few [sites where Konqueror doesn't workSad...
> (my bank is one) so I use Firefox in those cases.
Bank of America. I do all my banking and billpay online, and while it's
occasionally obvious that the site wasn't designed expressly for Konqueror
(particularly konqueror with a light text on dark background default
configuration, and with images turned off by default), everything I need
to do works. I have scripting and cookies turned on for the site, of
course, but don't have Java or Flash-type plugins installed, as I don't
run slaveryware. The site works fine without slaveryware plugins,
however, and no, I don't have to configure Konqueror to report its
useragent as something else to get it to work, either. =8^)
on dark and the fact that I normally don't have images turned on.
Clicking the load images button, and/or selecting the text to make it
viewable, cures those problems. The only other problem is that the view
ebill details feature often doesn't work quite right. I can see the
amount due and the date as supplied by BofA, but the framing of the bill
detail (from the third party utility or whatever) often doesn't work.
However, it produces an error that lists the URL, which can then be
selected and pasted into another browser window to view the bill detail,
if necessary/desired.
I can proudly say I also shop at, and DaimlerChrysler) on the short list
of SCO anti-Linux targets. Thus, we know BofA supports and uses free
software in its internal operations as well, and I can feel good about
supporting BofA for that, too. =8^) Here's the google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=autozone+sco+%22bank+of+am...
FreeFox!The return of Iceweasel
Nice thing. (Yes, I mean it.)The return of Iceweasel
Now that many Windows users are also adopting Firefox, it was getting annoying to use the same software as them...
Linux (or *BSD) users should get ahead of their time: so let's use something newer (and better): let's change the name at least!
The death of the community edition?
I used to think that Debian's packaging could conform to the Community Edition policy, but there was some reason why it can't. IIRC Debian is not regarded by MoFo/MozCorp as a "different operating system" so no patches are allowed. (I think the reason is given in the 2005 debian-legal discussion with gerv.)The death of the community edition?
Trademarks need to be actively enforced to retain their protection under US Trademark law. If they're not actively enforced, they become generic terms.Trademarks and active enforcement
There was a very interesting analysis on the subject by Matthew Garret.The return of Iceweasel
Unfortunately, this is just the start of a very disturbing trend, and it sets a bad example for how the freedoms afforded by free software and open source licensing can be undermined by trademark issues.Erosion of free licenses through trademarks
The return of Iceweasel
"...Also you have to take into account that firefox.org doesn't care about Linux."
Firefox.org?