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FOSS.IN: A report

FOSS.IN 2005 has run its course. Your editor, having returned (sans luggage and with a seriously confused body clock) to a Colorado cold snap, will now set out to summarize this impressive event. This article is a companion to the first-day report already published.

[FOSS.IN venue] FOSS.IN attracted something over 2700 attendees to a set of steel-and-canvas temporary buildings set up on the grounds of the Bangalore Palace. Speakers - mostly from India, but also coming from Australia, Brazil, Germany, Malaysia, the US, and beyond - led sessions on a wide variety of topics. The audience was interested and engaged in a way not often seen at other events. FOSS.IN was a fun place to be.

This report will not attempt to summarize the individual sessions. Those who are interested in further information should have a look at the numerous reports being posted on planet.foss.in. There are also quite a few photos available.

On the last day of the conference, your editor delivered a brutally technical kernel programming talk to a crowd which nearly filled the 750-seat "Intel Hall." That is several times the number of people which normally turn up for that sort of session. These people were not just filling the seats; they asked no end of detailed questions during the session and after as well. Alan Cox's technical device driver talk drew an even larger crowd. An immediate conclusion which might be drawn is that Bangalore contains hundreds of programmers who are interested in - and capable of - hacking on the kernel.

Even if only 10% of those attendees were truly active in kernel development, one would expect to see a significant amount of code from Bangalore working its way into the mainline kernel. And there are some Bangalore-based kernel hackers who are active on the mailing lists and who are contributing code. But their numbers are far smaller than one would expect after seeing how many people are interested and knowledgeable in this area. India is, as one developer put it, "the world's biggest consumer of free software," but it is not a huge contributor. Trying to reconcile this difference became one of your editor's primary objectives at FOSS.IN.

It is not possible to claim that this objective was realized in any complete way. It has become clear, however, that a few forces are at play here. One of them become evident early on: of the numerous questions asked privately by attendees, quite a few had to do with binary-only kernel modules. It seems that the challenges involved in maintaining proprietary modules - the changing kernel API, GPL-only exports, etc. - are proving frustrating to deal with. But more to the point: it seems that a significant percentage of these kernel developers are engaged in the writing of proprietary code. Your editor was far from the only speaker to sermonize about the problems inherent in proprietary code and the importance of contributing back to the community, but, if Indian companies are demanding the creation of proprietary code, that's what their employees will write.

[Neeti] Another important factor was revealed in a talk given by Neetibodh Agarwal, and in various discussions which followed. Neeti was called upon to set up a development team for Novell in Bangalore, and he was struck by just how difficult that was to do. There are, it seems, a number of reasons why Indian developers have a difficult time engaging with the free software development community.

By several accounts, the problem starts with the university system. The Indian universities are strongly oriented toward the creation of employable graduates in large numbers; a number of FOSS.IN attendees described them as "assembly line" operations. There is a strong emphasis on passing tests and getting through the system on schedule, and, it seems, little interest in encouraging creativity and curiosity in the students. The universities were described as a conformist environment with little love of those who have their own ideas of how things should be done. The end result, as expressed to your editor, is that most students have had any love of hacking beaten out of them by the time they graduate.

The fact that the universities are, for the most part, hostile to Linux and free software does not help either.

Neeti's talk described Indian developers as needing to have their jobs laid out to them in great detail. They want to know where their boundaries are, and are uncomfortable if left to determine their own priorities and approaches. Your editor's initial reaction was that this claim sounded like classic talk from a pointy-haired boss who does not trust his employees to make decisions. Subsequent discussions backed up Neeti's claims, however. A few Indians told me that Indian employees require a high degree of supervision; perhaps that is why the pizza stand at the site required two-levels of necktie-wearing bosses who apparently did little to actually get pizza into the hands of conference attendees. It is not that Indians lack the intelligence to function without a boss breathing down their neck - that is clearly not the case - but all of their training tells them to work in that way.

So if one were to construct a stereotypical picture of an Indian software developer, it would depict a person who sees programming very much as a job, and not as an activity which can be interesting or rewarding in its own right. This developer is most interested in getting - and keeping - a stable job in a country where an engineering career can be a ticket to a relatively comfortable middle-class existence. Keeping that job requires keeping management - and coworkers - happy, and not rocking the boat.

For such a developer, the free software community is not a particularly attractive or welcoming place. A developer who contributes to a free software project may earn a strong reputation in the community, but that reputation is not appreciated by that developer's employer or co-workers, and is not helpful for his or her career. Criticism from the community - even routine criticism of a patch by people who appreciate the developer's contributions in general - can be hurtful to a career in a culture where open criticism is not the normal way of doing things. Developers who expect to have their job parameters laid out to them in detail may feel lost in a project where they are expected to find something useful to do, and push it forward themselves. And these developers, while being possibly quite skilled in what they do, often have no real passion for programming, and leave it all behind when they leave the office each day.

It also does not help that, at this point, would-be contributors have few role models in India.

In the long term, many of these problems may go away. For now, however, getting Indian programmers into the community will require some extra care. Often, it will be necessary to engage (respectfully) with their supervisors: in most cases, if an Indian is working with the community, it is because his or her boss is making it happen. Being careful with criticism and avoiding creating trouble for Indian developers in their work hierarchies can only help.

And, obviously, an important step will be the creation of a vibrant free software community in India. This community can provide inspiration, mentoring, and support for [Gentoo booth] aspiring contributors; it could also provide a pool of free software programmers from which employers could hire. The seeds of this community were clearly visible at FOSS.IN - in fact, many FOSS.IN attendees are poorly described by (and probably somewhat offended by) the caricature presented above (please accept your editor's apologies). Dozens of Indian free software hackers got up on stage and presented their work at this event. Interestingly, the distribution most in evidence at FOSS.IN was Gentoo, rather than one of the products of the commercial distributors who are steadily employing more developers in Bangalore. The Ruby hackers - unlikely to be working at the behest of their employer at this stage - essentially had their own one-day track at the event. Harald Welte's session on hacking the Linux-based Motorola a780 phone attracted a very high level of interest. There is, clearly, a lot going on in India even now; it will be most interesting to watch the level of activity explode as the local community develops.

Events like FOSS.IN are crucial for the development of this community. So it is unfortunate that this event is currently dealing with some serious financial problems. A sponsorship shortfall led to a reduction in the conference program, and it leaves the organizers with a financial gap that they are struggling to close. Given this situation, it is worth noting that the list of conference sponsors (which includes Intel, Google, Sun, and HP) is missing the names of a few companies which work with free software, and which have a presence in Bangalore. In particular, IBM, Novell, and Red Hat all declined to sponsor FOSS.IN this year, even though many of their employees were using their vacation time to attend. Local companies, such as Wipro and InfoSys, were represented in the audience and among the speakers, but did not sponsor the event. If these companies see any benefit in having a thriving community to support their developers, sponsoring an event like FOSS.IN should look like an inexpensive way to help bring that community about.

Your editor thanks FOSS.IN (and its sponsors) for making it possible for him to be there. It was a fun and informative event in an interesting and changing part of the world.

Index entries for this article
ConferenceFOSS.in/2005


to post comments

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 4:36 UTC (Thu) by botsie (guest, #1485) [Link] (3 responses)

You're dead on accurate with a lot of your comments. I doubt if most foss.in delegates (like me) would disagree with your comments -- heck, I recognize some of those quotes. :)

I don't think the situation is irretrivable, however. IMO, the problem is solvable using a three-pronged strategy:

* Work through the work place: use employers to encourage people to contribute. Approval of the establishment is important in India.

* Catch 'em Young: Work on students directly to counteract the influence of the education system.

* Guide them in: provide a structured guide for these people to learn to work in chaotic environment that is the open source community.

These ideas are easier said than done, but the goal is important IMHO.

-- Biju

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 5:11 UTC (Thu) by vinodc79 (guest, #34334) [Link] (2 responses)

I really wonder whether Indian companies like Wipro and Infosys see adavantage in adopting FOSS. i was a former employee of Wipro and it has always been the case that they term every development as propreitory and categorise it under NDA. Still never late to change the scene!!

I totally agree with the editor's point on the appreciation point...!!!

Though, especially in Bangalore , the roots of FOSS are slowly, but surely creeping in..!!!!

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 18:21 UTC (Thu) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link] (1 responses)

Wipro most assuredly sees the advantage in adopting Free Software. However they do _not_ see the advantage of contributing, and the standard etiquette of Free Software participation completely escapes their employees. When you see an email from Wipro on a mailing list, it invariably takes the form of "Please do my job for me." I should note that many of my friends in the USA see these messages, fairly or unfairly, as "Please help me steal your job."

Here's the very first hit on Google for "wipro postgresql mailing list archive", but you can just as easily find similar examples on many other mailing lists:

Dear all,

How to define FOREIGN KEY in a table ???

Thank You,
Best Regards,
Vijay

************************************************************
Vijayendra Mohan Agrawal
Wipro Technologies

[end]

Here's the signature from a Wipro email that crossed the mod_perl list only two weeks ago:

...
Can some one please help me to resolve the problem and please let me
know if I am using the wrong configuration options.

Regards,
Sunil.

Confidentiality Notice

The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender at Wipro or Mailadmin@wipro.com immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments.

[end]

Now, I know you see these types of signatures from companies other than Wipro, but it's always incredibly rude. Please give me free help for using your free software so I can make money, but don't violate my confidentiality policy.

So I think Corbet is correct. At some major Indian companies, free software is seen as a good way to improve the profit margin, and not as a global effort to improve the human condition.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 9, 2005 20:18 UTC (Fri) by kravi (guest, #34351) [Link]

You seem to be too harsh on Wipro employees. Or maybe I feel that
way because I am one of them :)

You have made three points in your comment:
1. Wipro uses open source software.
2. Wipro employees ask stupid/annoying questions which amount to
"do my work for me".
3. Wipro does not contribute to open source software.

Apparently, the combination of these factors has made you angry..

I will try to give an insider's view of these things. Note that I
am NOT representing Wipro here nor am I defending it. Just stating
a few facts. Most of what I say here applies to almost all major
Indian IT companies.

1. Using open source software: Wipro (and most major Indian IT companies)
is a software services company, which mostly means "we do as we are told".
The decision to use open source software is mostly taken by the client
organization.

2. Bad questions happen - all the time and on all mailing lists.
(Similar annoying questions appear on our internal mailing lists as
well and I have pointed several people to the "How to ask questions
the smart way" document by ESR). Singling out a question by one Wipro
employee and saying this is typical is being grossly unfair.
Many of us use our personal mail-ids when interacting on mailing
lists precisely because we don't want the ugly confidentiality notice
attached to our mails. So please don't assume that the kind of question
you pointed out is typical of all Wipro employees.
(And the bit about stealing someone's job: Does anyone seriously believe
that decisions like outsourcing are based on who knows Perl better??)

3. Just like clients ask Wipro to use open source software, they
sometimes ask that we contribute code to open source projects as
well. This has happened many times and keeps happening. But you'll
never find out that Wipro is involved because all such contributions
are routed through the client organization.
This doesn't mean that Wipro consciously encourages such contribution.
It is just incidental.

Software services companies like Wipro and Infosys don't have a
business model that requires them to be a part of the open source
community. It is the clients who determine the involvement of
such companies in the open source community. Is that a good situation
to be in? Definitely not. But that's the way things are at the
moment..

Surprisingly, even in some of the big IT companies with a well-publicized
"open source strategy", there are groups which don't understand open
source based business models. I have had the frustrating experience of
working with one such group. There was a mortal fear of releasing any
code because the competition would then benefit from our engineering
efforts. The fact that the competition should first have the hardware
to make use of our code was lost on the managers.

Pure speculation on why

Posted Dec 8, 2005 5:41 UTC (Thu) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (2 responses)

I wonder if this is just another stage in a country moving from agriculture and lots of (relative) poverty thru the deveopment stage into a "developed" country. The current developed countries went thru a primitive initial industrial stage where creativity by workers was useless and discouraged. All that was needed was moving the farmer mindset to the factories. But as education spread and industry moved past the assembly line stage, more and more creativity became useful further and further down the pyramid. We are by no means at a stage where everyone is expected to be creative. There are still lots of code monkeys who need lots of supervision and assembly line jobs which require little thinking. But methinks creativity will continue to percolate thru the system. It goes hand in hand with independence.

I wonder if, in a hundred years, creativity will be taken for granted, and the equivalent of code monkeys and assembly line workers will be looked back on as not quaint, but bizarre and primitive and beyond comprehension, as we might look back on illiteracy today. It sparks my mind, seems almost impossible to speculate on how such a radical difference would change society.

I suppose the Internet is just another part of this, making it easier for more people to be creative in their own ways, to find other opinions, for ideas to spread without needing printing presses or broadcast booths.

Pure speculation on why

Posted Dec 8, 2005 18:47 UTC (Thu) by hazelsct (guest, #3659) [Link]

I agree. Richard Stallman commented on the related situation in China, where GPL violations likely happen routinely, by drawing a parallel to the utter lack of respect for patents which allowed the nascent U.S. textile industry to rip off British designs and grow in the early nineteenth century. His point was something like, "judge not lest ye be judged". (Can't find the link, sorry.)

India is not being shown to violate copyrights here, but the lack of respect for established free software practices probably grows from a similar root. Early in the development cycle, it is hard to see the value of respecting copyrights and patents -- or in this case, social norms.

Thanks for the post.

Pure speculation on why

Posted Dec 9, 2005 16:16 UTC (Fri) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link]

My dear felixfix,

A thought-provoking comment. I've been studying Marxism and it seems that Marx realised that proletariat revolutions would occur at different times in different countries because they were at different stages of industrial development. I think the same must hold true for nations with differing stages of info-tech development.

I like the fact that you put developed in quotes. One of the most ingrained mental traps we in the "West" :-) have is progress=good, more progross=better, furthest progressed=best.

Maybe we should go so far as to build in a positive discrimation bias into licenses like the GPL to mitigate for regional factors, sort of like DVD regions! This might allow Africa + Others to, er, catch up (for want of a better phrase) without incurring First World penalties? Just a thought.

Kind regards,
Anthony

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 13:21 UTC (Thu) by achitnis (guest, #20) [Link] (3 responses)

While the primary objective of FOSS.IN/2005 was to encourage people to get involved in FOSS, a hidden agenda was to show companies just how they are shooting themselves into the foot by creating hordes of employees who cannot function unless micromanaged.

And I think that message got through pretty clearly.

The other message we were hoping to send is that you don't have to be a developer to contribute to FOSS. Time will tell whether that got through or not, but I think this message was equally important.

Two days after FOSS.IN, someone contacted me saying that he wanted to contribute, but wasn't a developer. I asked him what he did as a job, and he said "I do technical and end-user documentation" - and he said it with a long face. I almost jumped out of my seat to grab him and point him at projects (I think he will start with KDE) - documentation is an under-addressed area in the FOSS world.

Also encouraging is the formation of FOSS groups in colleges. Students of one college have already announced their intention to do so, and several others are drumming up support as well.

And finally - despite Bill Gates being in town spreading a few billions in largesse, I was contacted today by the Indian Government about increasing the Government's support for FOSS *in* and *as* education. Even our state government, which is notoriously MS-oriented, has approached us asking how they can help.

Little drops of water, Little grains of sand....

Tangent: Documentation developers & support providers in a gift economy

Posted Dec 9, 2005 10:22 UTC (Fri) by Duncan (guest, #6647) [Link] (2 responses)

> Little drops of water, Little grains of sand....

Very encouraging to read that report.

Hmm... The rest of this goes off on a tangent that I didn't intend when I
clicked that reply button. <g> However, I think it's worth posting, and
am looking forward to the reaction of others, if any.

As it so happens, I'm sort of in the position of that docs guy, here in
the US. I don't "write developer" very well, but I "read and speak
developer" well enough to get by, and, according to the number of "thanks"
posts to various lists and groups (and places like LWN, as well, thru the
comments) to which I've contributed and continue to contribute, I do
better than many at explaining things.

One thing I've noticed is that even tho the community (of which I consider
myself very much a part) /says/ it has a great need for those doing
documentation, it doesn't always (as in very seldom) do such a good job at
providing the traditionally recognized "gift economy" reward -- community
recognition -- to docs developers, at the same level it provides it to
code developers, and does even worse for those that pitch in daily, day in
and day out, on the various forums and lists.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure most doing so, myself included, recognize
just as well as most contributor coders do, that they've gotten back far
more than they could ever invest, in just the use and breadth and depth of
FLOSS software available to them, but regardless, we all suffer from the
lack of documentation. Anyway, it remains fairly obvious that those in
the community doing the coding continue to reap the biggest rewards a gift
economy can provide, while those doing the documentation and support
generally get far less. Is it any wonder, then, that the economy tends to
produce more code than it does documentation and support? As long as the
reward structure remains, the relative supply ratio will likely remain as
well. That's just life.

It'd be interesting to see discussion of any proposed solutions?

Duncan

Tangent: Documentation developers & support providers in a gift economy

Posted Dec 9, 2005 13:50 UTC (Fri) by Petre (guest, #34436) [Link] (1 responses)

Many projects are adopting wikis for their documentation, which is a good thing as it makes contributing easier. But I'm always surprised and disappointed that the articles in those wikis don't usually display the names of the individuals who wrote them (and often don't even have a date, so you can't tell how old an article is). It seems to me that having people's names shown with an article--which should be easy since you usually have to create an ID to create/edit articles--should be standard practice. On top of that, the given wiki should have a page showing tallies of who has contributed what (you could count by number of articles, number of words, etc.) The point is to give recognition to people for creating documentation. Documentation is something that just about anyone can contribute to; offering code usually requires a less common skillset.

I've contributed to the K12LTSP wiki because it's something I believe in. Unfortunately, there is no attribution on that system. I don't care about it for myself; rather, I see it as a way that students could build some credentials for themselves, and then they'd have something to put on a resume: "I have written X public articles on such & such topics, which are used by the public" will be more valuable than "I took such & such a classs." I think the PHP documentation handles this well in that there is the official manual, but each page allows anyone to comment, and people add in all sorts of additional help and ideas.

Tangent: Documentation developers & support providers in a gift economy

Posted Dec 9, 2005 15:14 UTC (Fri) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

This seems like an excellent place to stick my head up and prospect for a little help on a nascent project to write a bot to extract DocBook format documentation masters from MediaWiki.

Anyone with any deep background on either side got some free minutes?

This doesn't seem like all *that* hard a project; keeping track of cross references for the second pass is probably the hardest part...

But it seems like it would be a really good approach to leveraging the distributed knowledge capture capabilities of a really good wiki package (and, clearly, I think MW is the best :-) in a fashion that fits in with everyone's favorite target intermediate format these days.

I'm just not a good enough coder to actually pull it off.

...

And if you think "documentor" is a hard seat to fill in the FOSS community... try analyst/designer (which is what I've gotten paid for for the last (cringe) 2 decades).

Avoid (one) spinlock deadlock

Posted Dec 8, 2005 16:05 UTC (Thu) by gottlieb (guest, #2240) [Link] (2 responses)

Thanks for posting the slides, which I very much enjoyed. Yet another reason to be pleased with my membership. You give the following code for spinlocks

To lock a spinlock:
   Decrement it by one
   If resulting value is zero
      it's yours
   else
      increment value
      go try again (spin)

When many are contending for the lock, this code can livelock with the value always negative.

To avoid this livelock use a pretest

   while value of spinlock is negative
       go try again (i.e., this is empty while loop)
   Decrement it by one
   If resulting value is zero
      it's yours
   else
      increment value
      go try again (spin)

Both “go try again”s go to the beginning (the while)

To optimize for non-contending locks, start with the decrement part (i.e., imagine a jump to the decrement part at the begining; but when you try again you jump to the while)

allan gottlieb, new york university

Avoid (one) spinlock deadlock

Posted Dec 8, 2005 21:08 UTC (Thu) by mingo (guest, #31122) [Link]

Linux kernel spinlocks have a couple of other twists as well.
The relevant code from include/asm-i386/spinlock.h is:

#define __raw_spin_lock_string \
"\n1:\t" \
"lock ; decb %0\n\t" \
"jns 3f\n" \
"2:\t" \
"rep;nop\n\t" \
"cmpb $0,%0\n\t" \
"jle 2b\n\t" \
"jmp 1b\n" \
"3:\n\t"

or:

repeat:
decrease by 1
if we reached 0, we got the lock
else keep looping until value <= 0
if value is 1 again then repeat

first we decrement, then we test until the counter has been - if we didnt succeed we keep polling the value without decreasing the value. Note we do not inrease the value back, we just poll the value until the counter goes 1 again. The owner of the lock writes 1 to the lock indiscriminately, thus undoing multiple decrease-by-1 effects, and signalling all waiters to try again. Furthermore, the 'rep;nop' is a 'take it easy' instruction on newer CPUs (it's a NOP on older CPUs) - this saves power and reduces the likelyhood of livelocks too.

Avoid (one) spinlock deadlock

Posted Dec 8, 2005 23:45 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Sometimes slides don't carry the entire substance of the talk. When I actually spoke, I noted that the pseudocode was a simplified version of what really goes on. The point was to make it clear what the "spin" in "spinlock" means, rather than get into the details of any architecture's implementation of them.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 17:07 UTC (Thu) by kamil (guest, #3802) [Link] (2 responses)

I'd like to speculate about another possible reason, which was perhaps hinted at in the article, but not expanded on: poverty.

I don't know the situation in India, so I might be totally wrong, but I do see some parallels with the country I come from: Poland.

Computer science and engineering is a highly respected profession in Poland, and many people follow that path. Yet, for a nation of close to 40 million people, it seems to me that the contribution to FOSS from Polish programmers is fairly limited, especially compared to much smaller neighbour countries like Czech Republic or Slovakia.

It is the poverty that I blame for that. For many people, contributing to FOSS projects is a hobby, at least at first. In a poor country, a hobby is a luxury that many simply can't afford. If you have to work your @$$ off to earn a salary that is barely enough to pay for rent and food, and a car if you are lucky (an own home is beyond the wildest dreams of most), it might be difficult to convince yourself or those close to you that the best way to spend the little free time you have is by doing even more coding -- for free.

I'm not saying that I agree with or support that attitude. But, as my grandma used to say, it's not easy for a full person to understand a hungry one...

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 9, 2005 5:41 UTC (Fri) by notagarwal (guest, #34425) [Link] (1 responses)

Another angle to the contribution problem is again related to the social structure. As is clearly evident from the various posts, comapnies(I will be audacious enough to say 95% of them) will pay you becasue they can make money out of what you do. Contribution to FOSS does not add in anyway to their bottom line. So they will make sure for the time you are employed with them (40 hrs a week) you do what they want and I think it is a contractual obligation.

This leaves FOSS contribution only as a hobby which I have to do in my spare time and that I have very little (you can call me escapist and I would say I am owning my responsibilities). I spend about 11 hours out of home(9 hours in office + 1.5 to 2 hours in commute) and about 7 hours for sleep. That leaves me with 6 hours to do the rest of the things like brush, cook, eat, take care of the family (and this means extended family...my children, my parents and not so uncommon relatives who stay with you when they are traveling). Things aren't that organized here in India and it takes time to do everything. This morning a stop at my bank to deposit a certain sum of cash took me 25 minutes.

Now you aks about the saturday, and I try to use that but with the fast paced movement of the open source community, working 1 day a week would hardly help. Most of the day will be spent just catching up on what happened during that week when you were not logged on.

I tell this from my own experience as I have failed multiple attempts to contribute back to the community. I have worked on UNIX/Linux kernel all my life. I was using the PCQ Linux on my desktop way back in 1996 and I am a greate supporter of FOSS. But within the framework of being an employee, a son, a father, a husband, a friend, a good neighbour and a FOSS contributer, I think FOSS comes lot lower.

But not to give up heart :-) I do try to spend my saturday visiting colleges, encouraging the students to try their hand at coding and not to mention FOSS is the one that gives them all the freedom.

Sorry about the long post and very personal narration. I thought it would give better insight if I posted the implementation details rather than an Architecture :-)

Who says Free Software doesn't contribute to the bottom line?

Posted Dec 9, 2005 15:17 UTC (Fri) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

I don't think you'd get a lot of uptake on that theory from IBM, for example.

Does it make you money *selling code*?

Usually not.

But there are lots of other things to sell.

Sounds to me like OSI needs to set up a task force, to start from ground zero evangelizing the concept amongst Indian businesses.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 19:45 UTC (Thu) by umesh (guest, #3692) [Link]

I did not attend the conference myself. However, I was educated in one of the premium educational institutes in India and have worked in India for a long time. The limitations of Banglore is not just limited to participation in Free Software movement. It goes lot beyond that. Banglore is mostly a service hub with excellent technology talent. Still we have not seen innovative products come out of Banglore why?

In my opinion the issue comes down to leadership, innovation, and risk tolerance.

Let me elaborate on each one of them:
1. Leadership: In most of the world top educational Institutes promote free thinking leaders over caged computer engineers or civil engineers or mechanical engineers. Not in Indian institutes and society. The emphasis here is training software engineers and obtaining the best possible grades. The result is we have excellent engineers but no leaders. There was a very lively discussion on this topic at this blog: http://o3.indiatimes.com/alive/archive/2005/12/05/361529....

2. Banglore is great at creating software once its objective is defined. Trust me it can be very innovative in software design, architecture, implementation. However, it is pathetic when it comes to business innovation. From business point of view, every one has seen things work in cerain way and have seen how to reap profit out of it. If you are still enjoying it what is need of business innovation. Universities never taught business innovation anyway.

3. This brings me to my third point: Risk Tolerance. From this mean financial risk tolerance. Most of the guys working in Banglore come from pretty middle level background. Most of their family probably earns 1/3rd to 1/4th of what they earn. Most of them have to financially support their extended family cannot take financial risk of a new innovative enterprise.

If Banglore wants to get to the next step, it really needs to break this fixed mold and the leadership towards this goal has to come from Universities.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 8, 2005 20:07 UTC (Thu) by jaldhar (guest, #7476) [Link]

I attended foss.in on behalf of Debian. I gave a couple of talks on the
first day and spent most of the rest of the four days talking to people,
so many people I had almost lost my voice by Friday.

From my perspective, although the problems mentioned by Jon are real, I
think the worst of it is already past. The bureaucracy and institutional
rigidity are there but slowly losing their grip and don't forget finding
ways of working around red tape is also a time-honored Indian tradition.
Perhaps because Debian attracts the kind of people who have a DIY mindset
to begin with, I did not hear too much about these kinds of problems.

Rather, my correspondants had more practical issues.

1. Bandwidth. If you're lucky your workplace has some. Your home almost
certainly does not. (Though DSL is becoming available in big cities
now.) This makes e.g. using apt-get or following high-traffic mailing
lists problematic. sneakernet over DVDs seems to be a common method of
distribution which is ok for users but if you want to participate in
development it sucks.

2. Documentation. American or European computer books are available but
too costly for many people. A lot of publishers do cheaper Indian
reprints but there is often a lot of lag before they are available. In
any case dead tree books are often out of date. There needs to be more
and higher quality online documentation under licenses which will allow
people to print out some copies and pass them around.

3. Isolation. People felt cut off from the broader free software
community. Having people like Alan Cox and Rasmus Lerdorf attending the
conference was tremendously uplifting. It made the whole idea of free
software seem more real in many eyes. I made it a point to reach out to
everyone who expressed even a slight interest in Debian, answering their
questions and pointing them to resources. (I didn't feel I had to do more
than the usual amount of handholding but, again, that could just be
because I was dealing with Debian folk.) The key thing is to just be out
there making people aware of what can be done. If other projects were to
also do the same, I'm sure they too would get a lot of response from the
Indian foss community.

FOSS.IN: A report - contridiction: just a job (to most?) ...

Posted Dec 9, 2005 3:16 UTC (Fri) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link]

Instead of attributing burn out while in the universities and lack of love for coding to most Indian programmers, I from my experience would say "some" want to be heavily supervised. Moreover, while complaining about lack of support for the conference by some of the big players: IBM, Novell, and Red Hat at the same time there is a discordant note in your observations:

"... though many of their employees were using their vacation time to attend ..."

Odd, took their own time to attend a conference their companies did not support. Does not sound at all like the characterizations used earlier in the article - just a job. Moreover, while some programmers I encountered in the states fit that mold most others were quite competent and self driven. Indeed many, if not most coded better than I.

[I am not of Indian descent nor to my knowledge are any of my relatives. I was born and lived totally (so far) in the U.S.A. other than a few trips into Canada.]

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 9, 2005 6:35 UTC (Fri) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link] (5 responses)

I agree with almost everything said in the article. Being a Debian Developer myself, one of my problems I faced was getting some bandwidth at home. I do not have the luxury of using a Un*x machine at my work place nor do they understand Free Software Philosophy. My day job has nothing to do with Free Software or even Un*x, i work with Digital Signal Processors.

But I faced no problem getting copyright assignments for some of the Free Software work I am doing in my little free time and a big thanks to them. Allowing them to have free time is yet another very important thing. Unlike in the US and elsewhere, one can find people almost always in their offices (working on non-working). Also the traffic problems in Bangalore compound these problems and when one reaches back home, he/she is good for nothing, literally, so forget Free Software and rush to the bed after food.

I believe these are larger problems than "epeople being supervised" to do any work. There are enough brilliant people in this city. It's just that many of the good practices of software development have not just gone inside them, perhaps due to education and perhaps due to the management pressure to get products out quickly.

It's a good thing if more companies start employing Free Software developers and also allow them to contribute to the community.

Thanks
Ramakrishnan

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 9, 2005 18:51 UTC (Fri) by markc (guest, #4419) [Link] (4 responses)

> It's a good thing if more companies start
> employing Free Software developers and also
> allow them to contribute to the community.

FWIW I have tried to engage 1 or 2 developers to help me (solo, not a
company) to complete projects in various stages of completion that are or
will become open source. As a reasonably well paid westerner I can afford
to pass on $4 USD per hour for part time, leading to possible full time,
employment for "the right" Indian FLOSS developer, if I can find one!!! I
was blown away by Jons' comments about the folks needing full guidance
because what I found is that it was going to take more of my time to
outline what I wanted done than than what it was worth in my time, plus
paying money, than any return on investment and contribution back from the
2 "workers" I have interacted with (I have less than zero management
experience). I mean, I could do the work I needed doing myself and
probably quicker, in most cases, if I detailed all the steps required by
the Indian hackers. If I was that organised I wouldn't need any help. Yes,
I was perplexed at the lack of direction when the offer was "there's 10
hours payment and the SVN checkout URL, now do whatever you want to do to
improve the code"... nuh, doesn't work like that... I would have to
provide very specific step by step guidelines for them to follow.

I thought I was dealing with individual personal traits but this article
indicates it's a national tendency. Now I know that I can adjust and allow
for it. Thanks Jon!

It has occurred to me that one way to overcome a few of the Indian
specific shortcomings outlined in both the article and the comments is if
some of us "westerners" could pool our financial resources and pay for
groups or "cells" of Indian FLOSS workers to co-work on specific project
targets. Ideally with enough pooled funds to pay for a room with an ADSL
connection and one full-time "manager" with a budget to pay for interested
FLOSS folks to show up and put in hacking time. I found paying upfront for
a $40 USD block of 10 hours was a good compromise between being fair to
the recipient, by giving them a reasonable chance to do a "micro job" and
prove themselves worthy enough to get a crack at the next 10 hour payment,
and, the payer (me so far) not risking too much money if the remote worker
just takes off with the payment never to be heard from again. Because of
the constrained resources in India (like bandwidth and computing power) it
does occur to me that some kind of pooling on both ends would help improve
the situation... for those of us wanting specific work done and for those
in India willing to do the work but held back by both a cultural trends
and available resources. 4 folks in the west contributing the value of 2
dozen beers per week would be full time employment for one Indian, and,
giving them the opportunity to be so working on FLOSS. 40 of us doing so
for 10 workers in the same village or area could possibly make a profound
difference to the whole community in that particular area as well as
seriously kick along various FLOSS projects that the rest of the world
benefits from, forever.


FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 10, 2005 17:04 UTC (Sat) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link] (2 responses)

> I thought I was dealing with individual personal traits but this article
> in dicates it's a national tendency. Now I know that I can adjust and allow
> for it. Thanks Jon!

Jon stayed in India for a week. With all due respect to Jon, you cannot generalize what probably is a trait for afew thousand developers and thrust it upon a whole nation. A lot of developers are in town contributing to many projects quitely. I know a afew very talented people sending bug reports, reproducing them and actually fixing them. These skills are very important too, not just conceiving and producing brand-new software.

Given the state of information infrastructure, I believe, those contributing to the projects small or large are doing a remarkable job. Until recently getting a reasonable DSL connection was very tough. Things are slowly changing. A lot of things needs change in future, a lot of these initiatives should come from the Govt. I strongly believe, things *will* change for good.

There are quite a lot of very talented developers I have seen here, most of them haven't been introduced to Free Software or are not interested for their own reasons. I do not believe that "Indians" as a whole need handholding to do everything. That's completely wrong generalization to make. I have seen bad american/european developers too who make more noise than signals. IMHO, it is wrong to classify talent based on region. We are going back in time to WWII timefreame if we do so.

The west should stop seeing Indian Software Industry through just Wipro and Infosys. There is a lot more happening here without publicity than what the West really know. It is sad to see Indians being tagged based on afew thousad people who attended a particular conference.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 11, 2005 6:44 UTC (Sun) by achitnis (guest, #20) [Link] (1 responses)

> It is sad to see Indians being tagged based on afew thousad
> people who attended a particular conference.

Ah, actually he isn't doing that at all - the people who attended this conference clearly are *not* the kind of people he was talking about.

However, it is a fact the Indian software industry (if one can call it that, given that one doesn't actually see any Indian products anywhere, and the industry is largely an extension of the American/European software industry) is creating a culture of "micro-managed software development", and does not actually encourage individual contribution or innovation. This has been a complaint voiced by many people who have dealt with developers in India, and is precisely why we are driving FOSS as a way to break this situation.

At the risk of sounding self-congratulatory, let me point you at this slide show:

http://atulchitnis.net/talks/innovate-students.pdf [PDF]

It is something I tag onto the end of every talk I give at colleges and even companies, and should explain things a bit more.

And also have a look at this:

http://dot.kde.org/1134244310/

This is something that is a direct outcome of that "particular conference". This is the first time that we have seen something like this happening in India (a non-corporate initiative), and hopefully it is a sign of things to come.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 11, 2005 13:04 UTC (Sun) by gnu (guest, #65) [Link]

> culture of "micro-managed software development", and does not actually
> encourage individual contribution or innovation. This has been a complaint > voiced by many people who have dealt with developers in India, and is
> precisely why we are driving FOSS as a way to break this situation.

A lot of students from India are active in many of the mailing lists related to Free Software, but we fail to see their names once they cease to become students. One of the things that anyone need to have to contribute to Free Software projects (Yeah, I don't like the word "foss" and the "Other word which starts with O") is a drive to contribute to the community. This is necessary and sufficient condition for any participation in the Free Software projects.

I disagree that no innovation is happening in the Indian Software Industry. Again, generalization based on lesser number of data points is as bad as telling a lie.

FOSS.IN: A report

Posted Dec 13, 2005 1:54 UTC (Tue) by aigarius (subscriber, #7329) [Link]

If you are still interested in getting some workforce for 4$/hour, turning to students from Easter Europe can be a good way to do that. Contact me at aigarius@debian.org if you are interested.


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