Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left [LWN.net]

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:16 UTC (Thu) by aigarius (subscriber, #7329) [Link] (11 responses)

Except if you don't want them to - only the new themes will have the buttons
on the left, old themes will still have buttons on the right as before.
There was a bug in beta that caused buttons to jump to left side for all
themes, but it has been fixed now.

It is also possible to choose the Human theme and then customize it to
replace all parts of it with the parts from the new Radiance theme - this
way you get the new shiny theme with the old button layout.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:32 UTC (Thu) by kirkengaard (guest, #15022) [Link]

Or just go into gconf-editor, apps/metacity/general, and change button_layout to something like "menu:minimize,maximize,close".

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 14:13 UTC (Fri) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link] (9 responses)

> Except if you don't want them to

Oh come on -- who'd really WANT them to? This change is pushed against the will of the majority who's used to the usual layout. Not many of those would bother investigating how to change this back -- even if they don't really like it.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 10, 2010 1:13 UTC (Sat) by jbailey (guest, #16890) [Link] (8 responses)

"The will of the majority" makes it sound all democratic and such -- which Ubuntu never claimed to be. Shuttleworth has been clear from the beginning that he'll be opinionated. Luckily, most of the time his opinions seem to be good ones.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 10, 2010 8:49 UTC (Sat) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link] (4 responses)

Who cares what it claimed to be?

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 10, 2010 12:16 UTC (Sat) by jbailey (guest, #16890) [Link] (3 responses)

By the same token, who cares what the will of the majority is?

The will of the majority wants to run Windows and is pretty convinced the the blue "e" on their desktop is the Internet.

Few things about popular opinion would want me to base a product on it.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 10, 2010 12:20 UTC (Sat) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link] (2 responses)

> By the same token, who cares what the will of the majority is?

The majority does.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 10, 2010 12:24 UTC (Sat) by jbailey (guest, #16890) [Link]

Source? I haven't seen much that demonstrates that.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 10, 2010 15:50 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Anybody who cares about bug #1 does.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 11, 2010 13:51 UTC (Sun) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link] (2 responses)

Except, of course, that putting the Window Close button -- which often does not trigger an "are you sure" dialog before it's irreversible action -- *immediately above the window menu bar* is the sort of Stupid 'Designer' Trick rejected by dozens of usability specialists in the past -- there's a *reason* why those buttons live in the right hand end of the window frame on nearly every windowing system of the last 3 decades, folks.

Yup; Shuttleworth has lost it. And so, shortly, will Ubuntu.

You, Mr Shuttleworth, are no Steve Jobs.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 12, 2010 2:36 UTC (Mon) by jbailey (guest, #16890) [Link] (1 responses)

While I don't think that Shuttleworth is as capable as Jobs at designing beautiful UIs, predictions of Ubuntu shortly losing are laughable at best. I don't think there's any one else in the Desktop Linux space that has a complete offering (OEM deals, support, etc).

In the absence of any competition, they have a captive market. While they are tweaking UIs and learning how best to serve customers through experimentation, anyone else has to go through the relationship building stage that Canonical has already completed.

It could be much worse. We could be stuck with whatever default UIs are being provided with no one trying for a good experience. I think we're better off for the work that they're doing, despite and because of the bumps in the road that they'll hit.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 12, 2010 3:59 UTC (Mon) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

It should be noted that, you don't need competition to make a product fail and lack of competition might be because simply might be not enough profit on the desktop market for the business ventures to be successful. Nobody has shown otherwise. Maybe proprietary services tied to the desktop is Canonical's answer. I would hope that wouldn't be the case.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:28 UTC (Thu) by cpeterso (guest, #305) [Link] (5 responses)

I'm a Mac fanboi, but even I think moving the window buttons is a mistake.

Let's assume desktop users are 90% Windows, 9% Mac, and 1% Linux. If 91% of users (Windows + Linux) are familiar with a particular button arrangement, then the new design ought to be 10x better to break such a HUGE precedent. But it's not.

At least they has changed their mind to use Mac-style buttons. Copying the minority precedent is better than creating an arbitrary new design.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 16:15 UTC (Fri) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

At least they has changed their mind to use Mac-style buttons. Copying the minority precedent is better than creating an arbitrary new design.

I agree, although I don't think that the close button in the left corner will work as well on Ubuntu as it does on the Mac, since it's going to end up just above the File menu on most X applications. This is an example of the "electric fence" syndrome: get too close, and you know that something bad is going to happen...

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 8, 2010 0:05 UTC (Thu) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link] (3 responses)

I have a different argument myself. I use 3 different computers most days: my Ubuntu 8.04 PC at home, RHEL Linux workstation at work managed by my employer's IT dept, and a Windows laptop (also managed by IT). Occasionally, I have to help coworkers with their computers, and I have two other computers around my house that I sometimes use at consol (one Linux, and one Windows due to a stupid proprietary package I need to use).

When it comes time for me to upgrade to Ubuntu 10.4, if I do, only one of those computers will get the upgrade. The rest won't.

Currently, all of the computers I use each day agree on where the Control key goes, on where Caps Lock goes, and on pretty much where everything else goes. This includes the window control icons in the upper right.

With this change, folks like me will now have their muscle memory thwarted when they sit down at "the weird machine." Kinda like I was always caught off guard by the Sun Type 6 keyboard on one of my computers with the UNIX layout with Control to the left of 'A', and then the two other keyboards I used regularly that have Caps Lock in that position.

I eventually used some xmodmap-fu to homogenize my work environment. I had to to keep my sanity.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 8, 2010 14:07 UTC (Thu) by MattPerry (guest, #46341) [Link] (2 responses)

> With this change, folks like me will now have their muscle memory thwarted
> when they sit down at "the weird machine."

Then select one of the many other themes that ship with Ubuntu that still have the buttons on the right. There are two *new* themes with buttons on the left and you aren't required to use them. You can still use the old human theme that comes with 9.10 and will still be in 10.04.

Really, this whole thing is a storm in a teacup.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 11, 2010 13:53 UTC (Sun) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link] (1 responses)

I assert that your response is the result of nerdview, and that you don't spend any appreciable amount of time working with Real Users -- the group Shuttleworth clearly sees the need to convert.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 12, 2010 0:09 UTC (Mon) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link]

Furthermore, if the aim of moving these buttons to the left was to add Exciting New Features^TM on the right, then you also run into the issue (perhaps not immediately, but eventually) that the older themes just simply aren't supported well. It's the familiar pattern of interface deprecation. Mark the now-out-of-vogue way as "deprecated," meaning that you can keep using it for now, but it'll get removed at some point in the future because it's no longer "the way."

You now have partitioned the community into the "well supported" and "legacy users" with respect to this UI element. While it makes sense to deprecate some things, providing backward compatibility "for a time", I'm not sure deprecating such a widely used interface element makes sense. Even Windows 7 has kept the buttons over there (albeit, applying Fitts' Law more effectively than in the past, with the larger and variable-width buttons).

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:29 UTC (Thu) by roman (guest, #24157) [Link] (5 responses)

What was old becomes new again: a "close" button in the upper left corner dates back to the original MacOS (and probably Lisa before that).

I've seen UI details change enough times that it doesn't bother me, but I have some computer-challenged friends happily using Ubuntu who will probably absolutely freak because it looks different. I guess I'll be in the Configuration Editor "fixing" this for them.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:38 UTC (Thu) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (2 responses)

You probably won't. In the new theme, moving the buttons to the right will look absolutely horrible. But since button placement now depends on theme anyway, you can just set the old Humanity theme, and everything will be like 9.10 again.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 14:36 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

There are more themes then just the 'human' theme. Sun released some good themes and
Suse's theme is top-notch in terms of looks and usability.

At least Novel-Suse's theme should be in the repositories.

On my Debian system it's called "gnome-theme-gilouche".

http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Compiz-Gilouche?co...

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 6, 2010 7:47 UTC (Tue) by bni (guest, #27103) [Link]

Yes that Gilouche theme is pure genius, Ive been using it for a few years. Its very simple and clean. Would make a great default theme.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 9, 2010 20:13 UTC (Fri) by spitzak (guest, #4593) [Link] (1 responses)

It is weird that nobody seems to remember that the close button was also in the upper left on Windows

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 9, 2010 22:53 UTC (Fri) by ABCD (subscriber, #53650) [Link]

Well, technically that was a system menu button, not a close button there - it required a second click to actually close the window.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:47 UTC (Thu) by drs481 (subscriber, #56939) [Link] (3 responses)

I still don't get it: _why_ does this have to be pushed shortly(!) before an LTS(!) release? Why not introducing this in the new release cycle starting with 10.10? _That's_ the right starting point for experimenting and testing.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:56 UTC (Thu) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (1 responses)

Because Ubuntu long ago stopped being about pushing a stable, polished
experience to users and instead became about reinventing half the stack
without any support from upstream or any users requesting the changes in the
first place. I loved the first few Ubuntu releases, but long ago switch to
Fedora when the Ubuntu releases starting having severely buggy out-of-the-
box experiences. Fedora is getting close to pissing me off to a similar
degree too, unfortunately. Too many developers think usability means "make
changes that seem like they'd be easier for new users we aren't testing
with" instead of "make sure shit works and it doesn't take hours to figure
out how to make it work when everyone already had it working before the
pointless update."

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 23:18 UTC (Thu) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

In case, you were not aware, Fedora is changing its update policy.

http://lwn.net/Articles/378393/

The policy that is about to be implemented is

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_update_acceptance_...

Bodhi, the update management system is being changed to support this and once that is done, this policy will
take effect.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 10:09 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

OH NOES! Moving buttons will have a MAJOR stability impact, how DARE they?

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 22:55 UTC (Thu) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (6 responses)

I just noticed that the menu bar has literally become part of the window decorations. You can now move the window by dragging the menubar around. So your window decorations have effectively become twice as big. Nice!

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 23:14 UTC (Thu) by cmsj (guest, #55014) [Link] (5 responses)

Yeah that is pretty cool, and that kind of integration will only improve
when Client Side Decorations gets enabled (window borders are then drawn by
Gtk rather than your window manager. It was played with early in Lucid, but
deemed not quite ready yet).

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 17:48 UTC (Fri) by alecs1 (guest, #46699) [Link] (4 responses)

By client side decoration you mean the thing that XMMS/Winamp and many video players do? That the decoration is managed by the client, and that client also takes care to move itself when needed and anything else.

I have my doubts about how this can be nicely implemented:
1. Getting this right seems very hard. The range of problems is huge: when the program freezes it won't move any more, most times won't resize either. My window manager has "magnetic" edges, resize at Alt+Rmb and many other shortcuts which affect the window. This could probably be solved by making a library "libkwindekorations" and have funky apps link to it. This brings me to the next point:
2. Duplication. The lazy creators of "GtkNotepad" (which consists of a text edit widget and a menu) will make linking to libkwindekorations compulsory, so in order to start my 2k LOC editor I'll bring in the complex 50k LOC window handling library.

I believe that, *at most*, the applications that want it should be able to borrow their menus, toolbars and maybe some space to the window manager. If my Konqueror here gave its status bar to the WM to manage, then the WM could show a nice grab handle at the right of the status bar, in the bottom-right corner. The same goes for the fancy menu blended in the title bar.

I actually love it on Linux desktop that all windows are low level citizens, governed by WM, they will listen to some extent even if they are frozen.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 18:08 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (3 responses)

More details about CSD is at

http://jasondclinton.livejournal.com/74222.html

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 18:10 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

One more

http://live.gnome.org/GTK+/ClientSideDecorations

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 21:14 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't see how this could be made to work without major wm changes.

If you think that horrible stuff like in-window Google Chrome-style
decorations are a nice idea, then maybe this would work, but how do you
stop the window manager from drawing decorations as well? (And how do you
stop it looking totally out of place with respect to older apps that *do*
have the wm draw the decorations?)

Presumably you mark these things as transient windows so that the window
manager doesn't try to decorate them... but a lot of window managers
interpret transience to mean a lot of other things as well (often 'do not
hide when desktops are switched' and things like that).

(And if you're changing the wm, you don't *need* in-client decorations,
you just teach the wm how to decorate the window in the same way.)

client side decoration

Posted Apr 9, 2010 20:26 UTC (Fri) by spitzak (guest, #4593) [Link]

You mark the windows as either "override" or turn on the no-border hints in the ancient TWM window manager hints.

Worries about mouse-dragging and resize can be fixed by adding a new Window manager API where the program can convey simple commands to it, like "the user is dragging the right edge of my window, do whatever you want..."

There is no reason for the window border to somehow be special and rendered by a different asynchronous task. This was a kludge solution for systems before there were shared libraries. We have much much better solutions for making reusable widgets nowadays and this ancient system should be ditched for a modern one.

I would GREATLY love to see this. The current X design (and Windows and OSX that copied it) is crap, it is slow, always has redraw glitches, and it requires FAR MORE code to implement than just drawing the decorations yourself, if you assume the program already needs code to draw buttons and so on in it's contents. I suggest you take a look at how many thousands of lines of ICCCM and "window manager hints" crap a toolkit has to write if you don't believe me, and compare to how much code you would need using that toolkit to draw a window border with a few buttons.

This would eliminate all the "slowness" issues with X, because that "slowness" is caused by the asynchronous nature, while a synchronous delay of all window update is not objectionable at all. It would fix window raising, provided programs can have complete control over the order of the windows, allowing things like multiple base windows sharing the same transient window, and thus make GIMP work the way the designers want it to work, and maybe get us off the "make a giant window and tile everything into it" mindset of all current software. Window systems were invented to solve this decades ago but the window-raising-on-click that WM's force on them has broken this and forced all software to revert to primitive designs.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 1, 2010 23:17 UTC (Thu) by fjalvingh (guest, #4803) [Link] (2 responses)

I did not know irritating your users was innovative. I mean- I was irritated using Windows every day, so about the only innovative thing here was that I am now irritated using Linux.. Somehow I fail to see the gain here.

Changing this to add the new killer functionality is defendable. Doing it to move useless screen area from the right side to the left side is pathetic.

Luckily this nonsense is easily reverted. The real sad thing is that *this* is seen as innovative.

Innovative

Posted Apr 2, 2010 0:51 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't think anybody sees it as innovative. It's only being promoted as innovative, on the "see what sticks to the wall" principle.

Innovative

Posted Apr 11, 2010 13:57 UTC (Sun) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link]

You appear to allege that Mark's problem is malice, rather than stupidity, but I'm not sure that's true here...

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 1:03 UTC (Fri) by busterb (subscriber, #560) [Link] (1 responses)

Any idea about how to move Google Chrome's buttons, seeing as it draws its own
window decorations? It looks pretty silly along-side the default decorations,
and appears to be packaged directly (without a PPA).

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 3:46 UTC (Fri) by whiprush (guest, #23428) [Link]

https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/elnmibmpefhmf...

You need to turn on the system toolbar in the options, so you lose a bit of
vertical space unfortunately.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 1:19 UTC (Fri) by jengelh (guest, #33263) [Link] (1 responses)

Canonical's decision to go to great lengths to ignore common sense has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an Ubuntu developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in partaking in introductory sessions for people who want to join the communities of Debian, Fedora, openSUSE, Gentoo, Slackware or Arch (and others that enjoy even less mention) - in any capacity, including developers and package maintainers.

If you want to find out how other Linux distros works, how to contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there will be something for you. People are also on IRC throughout the day to answer
any questions you may have to them specifically, such as our stance on UI "design".

There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting for folks familiar with Ubuntu. The Debian team is hosting some events during the week to look at UIs and Debian and to discuss the roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by the Debian Desktop teams, which I think should include some discussion of the ideas that stirred up in recent debates. [...]

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 5:49 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

Or you could pick up a fresh copy of Gulliver's Travels to hone your skills.

The community has spoken and was ignored.

Posted Apr 2, 2010 2:44 UTC (Fri) by tdwebste (guest, #18154) [Link] (4 responses)

Within the ubuntu community there was a massive unified outcry against the
obfuscation of window control icons.

Join a community where your voice is heard, not ignored.
--

Not only did ubuntu move the buttons to the left. They also made them small
and confusing.

What does 'v','^' stand for?

Before the window icons where obvious
__
|__| is obvious

__ is obvious

The community has spoken and was ignored.

Posted Apr 2, 2010 23:16 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

'v' and '^' are obvious too. They stand for 'move window down' and 'move
window up'. Unfortunately someone seems to have typoed and attached the
wrong actions to them.

The community has spoken and was ignored.

Posted Apr 3, 2010 6:32 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

I thought they stood for "make window concave" and "make window convex".

The community has spoken and was ignored.

Posted Apr 11, 2010 14:01 UTC (Sun) by Baylink (guest, #755) [Link] (1 responses)

Move windows up and down? In the stacking order?

Cause I generally let click-to-focus handle that.

If you meant "up and down" to a minimized state, I hope you can see why not only is that not obvious, but there's a different mapping for those concepts which *is* obvious. Well, ok, at least it *exists*. :-)

The community has spoken and was ignored.

Posted Apr 11, 2010 19:20 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Yes, in the stacking order. Having buttons that handle that really is useful if you hate click-to-raise, but, yes, my comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek. :)

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 6:14 UTC (Fri) by davidw (guest, #947) [Link] (5 responses)

I wish they'd fix this one:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/metacity/+bug/1...

The window borders are down to something like 1 pixel, and on a laptop with
a high resolution screen and a trackpad, it's really a PITA to try grabbing
them to resize windows.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 8:46 UTC (Fri) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link] (2 responses)

Usually window managers support alt + right click & drag for resizing
windows. Since I discovered that, I've never again tried to hit any border.
It's just so much more convenient to hit the window just about anywhere for
resizing. I even disabled window borders completely nowadays.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 10:20 UTC (Fri) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

I don't know about you, but I find that a tad annoying on my laptop's mouse
pad.

The alt+space -> Resize or alt+right-click -> Resize are also more cumbersome
than grabbing the borders. To users who just use the computer (like my parents)
grabbing borders is straightforward, while specific key combos are black magic.

In any case, many thanks for the tip, at least for me this alt-click & drag
method (sub-optimal as it is) beats trying to grab borders...

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 8, 2010 13:12 UTC (Thu) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

This is possible but it's highly undiscoverable to a non-expert, e.g. someone with visual and motor disabilities (even a small tremor makes using a mouse harder).

The fact that Ubuntu decides to move the buttons rather than fixing this 5 year old bug speaks volumes about its priorities, sadly.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 16:24 UTC (Fri) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

I have trouble with that too. Perhaps there is some way to add edge resistance with gconf-editor.

Alternatively, use the keyboard

Posted Apr 2, 2010 22:39 UTC (Fri) by iam.TJ (guest, #56644) [Link]

I had thought it was me getting clumsy; didn't realise the window borders had actually shrunk.

Thanks to the other comments in reply here I tried the Alt+right-button drag but it didn't work.

After playing about I discovered with a three-button mouse here it is Alt+middle-button drag.

Now I've tried it I find it feels much easier than grabbing the bottom-right corner which is what I've always done.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 8:08 UTC (Fri) by zzxtty (guest, #45175) [Link] (6 responses)

I realise this is petty and trolling etc. but this has actually made me remove Ubuntu from my laptop (I realise you can fix bug/feature with gconf, but why should we have to? How long before gconf is removed to aid useability?). Ubuntu really does appear to have become Project Copy Mac(TM), and that is an interface I cannot stand. I'm currently trying out Fedora, its come a long way since core 4!

A Petty Troll

it's only a beta people

Posted Apr 2, 2010 8:39 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (4 responses)

you may want to wait until they have an actual release with the feature that you don't like before throwing them out.

it may or may not change before the release.

the way to make it change is to point out problems (the close near the edit menu for example), not to state that you have already abandoned ubuntu

so far this has been in a single beta release, they could change it back in the next beta, or they could leave it in all the way to the release.

but a lot of the posts here make me think that the people who made them really didn't use ubuntu to start with.

it's only a beta people

Posted Apr 2, 2010 8:48 UTC (Fri) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link] (1 responses)

"The decision as to the window controls location and order itself is now
final, and as they say in the old newspapers, no further correspondence will
be entered into."

Could be me but that just doesn't sound like it would change again any time
soon...

it's only a beta people

Posted Apr 2, 2010 17:01 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

there were other comments from him that said that they would be evaluating this again before the release.

I will point out that becoming defensive and hardening your stance is a very common reaction to being attacked.

most of the reaction to this change has not be disagreement, it's been attacks.

it's only a beta people

Posted Apr 2, 2010 17:15 UTC (Fri) by zzxtty (guest, #45175) [Link]

I've been using ubuntu for years, I tried the beta, I wasn't just mildly annoying. I've been using computers for decades, my hand automatically moves to the top right to close a window. This one simple change leaves me *fighting* with the user interface. I tend to have lots of windows open, stacked, the close buttons are usually accessible because of the way I manage my windows. With this change I'm being asked, no told, to change they way I work. I do not like the change, I do not like the way it was made. Thankfully there are plenty of other distributions out there.

I will continue to use the server version, that is until they decide to move the shell prompt to the right.

it's only a beta people

Posted Apr 8, 2010 13:14 UTC (Thu) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

I do use Ubuntu and I find this feature annoying - the first thing I do with 10.04 will be to choose a theme that turns this off, which will negate the expensive design work on the new theme of course.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 15:04 UTC (Fri) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

If you don't like the theme, just change back to the old theme. The buttons will be back at your desired location.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 9:28 UTC (Fri) by AndreE (guest, #60148) [Link] (2 responses)

I do have to wonder what innovations in the right title bar space couldn't have been added to the left title bar space

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 14:26 UTC (Fri) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link] (1 responses)

Oh, this one's easy -- normally the application's menu is packed on the left side, and has space on the right. Once you move window buttons on the left as well, you have a lot of space to the right -- both menu and window title are empty there. Now, have you noticed that the 'Esfera' button is twice as large and takes all that space? That's the idea behind the change, I presume.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 15:50 UTC (Fri) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link]

Microsoft has this big button on the left in Office 2007, so it's not impossible. But maybe they want to avoid confusion with that.

Ubuntu's window buttons to stay on the left

Posted Apr 2, 2010 13:11 UTC (Fri) by fluxion (subscriber, #62978) [Link]

Was really hoping this had just been a big elaborate April Fool's Day joke...

Ah well, so long as I can change it back. Seems like a really stupid thing to mess with in the first place though.

OK, so someone tell me.

Posted Apr 2, 2010 13:48 UTC (Fri) by gbutler69 (guest, #54063) [Link] (3 responses)

What would you recommend switching to from Ubuntu 9.10? Fedora? Redhat? SuSe?
Debian? Gentoo? Slackware? I find this choice to be a symptom that Ubuntu has now
"Jumped the Shark".

I started out with Slackware back in the day and then switched to Redhat around the 6.x
timeframe. I was happy to buy the supported version. Then Redhat went and stopped having
a viable desktop version. Ouch!

I then used Fedora up through core 3 before switching to Ubuntu around the 6.04 timeframe.

I've tried out Gentoo, but, I'm not sure I really want to compile EVERYTHING from source.

I really like the convenience of synaptic and the repositories (and PPA's are great) for quickly
trying out various software etc.

So, what should I be looking at?

OK, so someone tell me.

Posted Apr 2, 2010 14:18 UTC (Fri) by smadu2 (guest, #54943) [Link]

Jump to mac :) you will love it - just kiddin ...

OK, so someone tell me.

Posted Apr 2, 2010 14:56 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

So, what should I be looking at?

Debian, probably. It's the most similar to Ubuntu. We used to install Ubuntu on non-technical employees' desktops and Debian for developers. We quickly realized that was dumb and gradually moved everyone to Debian. Once the system is installed, the differences are pretty minor, except we (usually) don't have to worry about Debian making bone-headed changes for no good reason.

The Ubuntu installer, I'll grant you, is a bit more polished than Debian's installer... but how often do you install?

OK, so someone tell me.

Posted Apr 2, 2010 17:47 UTC (Fri) by ikm (guest, #493) [Link]

> I really like the convenience of synaptic and the repositories (and PPA's are great) for quickly trying out various software etc.

> So, what should I be looking at?

Debian, I would guess? It seems you are used to its packaging, so you won't have to learn anything. Since Ubuntu is its derivative, it may be the first logical thing to try.

Innovation on the Right

Posted Apr 2, 2010 15:54 UTC (Fri) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] (1 responses)

Our intent is to encourage innovation, discussion, and design with the right of the window title bar.

How about a giant "lower window" button?

It's not always possible to raise a window that is obscured by other windows, but it is always possible to lower the windows on top. Over the years there have been many UI additions that are basically attempts to work around this deficiency. Examples:

Cascading window placement. Hopefully at least part of the window you want is visible.
ALT-TAB. Dig up the window you want with the keyboard.
The Windows task bar, which provides icons for windows that are still mapped, but may be obscured by other windows.
Apple Expose, the ultimate $50,000 solution to a ten dollar problem.

A good old-fashioned three button mouse is still the best solution, but those are getting hard to find, and using the middle button on a scroll mouse is miserable (when it works at all).

Innovation on the Right

Posted Apr 5, 2010 14:26 UTC (Mon) by sorpigal (guest, #36106) [Link]

I don't lower, I roll up. Any decent WM should have a window-shade button. It solves this and other problems, nicely.

Someone is going to cry "usability" at me, I can feel it...

Wow

Posted Apr 5, 2010 15:00 UTC (Mon) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link] (2 responses)

Can we stop calling it Ubuntu (which makes it sound like a "community") and start calling it Shuttleworth since it now appears that no one's voice matters but his.

Wow

Posted Apr 8, 2010 10:54 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (1 responses)

Shuttleworth has always had the final saying, but that doesn't make his the *only* voice. Other projects work that very same way.

If you want a more democratic distro, go Debian. But beware, your voice will not be heard more than others'. If you want that instead, you should start your own just like Shuttleworth did.

And it all has nothing to do with the distro's name.

Wow

Posted Apr 10, 2010 22:59 UTC (Sat) by jpnp (guest, #63341) [Link]

It has a lot to do with the name, along with the carefully cultivated sense of community around Ubuntu.

The distro is named "Ubuntu" rather than the more neutral names chosen by almost all the other major distros. The definition and concept of ubuntu is widely used in their marketing/descriptive material (in previous example data installed in a users home dir include a video of Nelson Mandela discussing ubuntu, for goodness sake). Consider the start of the code of conduct: "Ubuntu is an African concept of 'humanity towards others'. It is 'the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity'. The same ideas are central to the way the Ubuntu community collaborates."

This, along with the high profile community manager employed by canonical and the large amount of community activity, is bound to effect both the type of people attracted to contribute to Ubuntu and their expectations as they're part of the community.

The widely referenced code of conduct also includes, "Our work should be done transparently and we should involve as many interested parties as early as possible. If we decide to take a different approach than others, we will let them know early, document our work and inform others regularly of our progress." I think there are some in the community who feel this is not how Shuttleworth's/canonical's design efforts are being run. There is a special, extra leadership code of conduct: "In Ubuntu, leadership is not an award, right, or title; it is a privilege." It adds "The Code of Conduct does not only apply to leaders. It applies to leaders more."

Now, I know Shuttleworth is the self-styled dictator-for-life, and I expect that like many founders (especially those who happen to be multi-millionaires) his ego believes it's above the rules he created, but people at canonical really shouldn't be surprised by the community reaction.

Personally, the exact location of the close button is not a deal breaker, though I am glad it's moved from 3rd in to the left edge. But, the manner and timing of it all has me seriously worried. I have been responsible for several dozen Ubuntu installs (basically the whole of a small department at work). In the coming year I am going to have to move my users from the last LTS release.

I see comments from canonical (mostly Shuttleworth), basically saying we need to experiment to move forward, our designs aren't finished there will be more to come which will make this worthwhile (when we've thought that bit up). I don't disagree with this, and am happy enough with that attude on my home desktop, but an enterprise distro? I am disturbed by this attitude just before an LTS release, my users are not their guinea pigs. If they want their distro in enterprises (as they have been pushing for), they must finish their experiments, widely test and come to conclusions before shipping it to me. I know this is just a GUI change, but the attitude displayed concerns me.