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What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

[Esfera] The Ubuntu "Ayatana" mailing list is discussing a proposal from Pablo Quirós for a new user interface element to put in the upper right corner of windows which has been recently vacated on Ubuntu systems. The "Esfera" is a large circle which is used to implement a number of gesture-oriented features; details can be found in this PDF file. "Moved in a semicircle from right to left: the window is turned, and the back of it is shown to the user. The back of a window is a new UI concept... The idea is that we have a 'front' side of a window, which is what we normally see, and a 'back' side, which offers some possibilities that there is no space to display in the front side."
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What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 19:44 UTC (Fri) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

It seems to me that having windows with a "back" is going to lead to a whole slew of hidden features that newbies just can't find because they can't get this darn sphere thing working. This UI control just seems too undiscoverable. Is it a button? Is it a slider? Whoa, lots of completely random and unrelated things happen depending on how you slide it. This is going to be beyond the grasp of many users. Multiple workspaces, gestures, etc, are fine power tools but they are simply too complex and arcane for many people.

Also, drag operations/gestures are difficult for many people. People who have a hard time coordinating holding the button and making a gesture with the mouse, such as disabled people, seniors, or children aren't going to be able to use any of these features at all.

Finally, most of the features he talks about implementing are highly app dependant; that is, the application itself needs to cooperate in this. Wouldn't it be better to add features to the apps then worry about how to unify these into the window manager? Communication between a video player and video editor is not going to happen for free just because there's a sphere to click on.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 19:54 UTC (Fri) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

And if I can reply to my own comment, it seems to me that many of these gestures could be just as easily attached to the window title area, which is a much bigger target. I already use it as the (un/)maximize button and never click the button itself. And I minimize my apps by clicking on the buttons on the taskbar, also a bigger target. Most of these Esfera gestures could simply be title-bar gestures.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 20:09 UTC (Fri) by sharms (subscriber, #57357) [Link]

"back" works just fine for pieces of paper, web browsers, and cars. In
fact, almost in any context or sense of the word back is understood.

UI would be no more undiscoverable than the three buttons at the top of
every window I have. What does a box icon with other boxes do? What does
the minus sign do? Is it a calculator? Point being, these are learned
traits, not intuitive.

In my experience children, seniors, and the disabled are generally able to
use a mouse with minimal effort.

Yes, apps have to cooperate with many paradigms. I am not sure you made a
single point that made any sense.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 20:37 UTC (Fri) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

Maybe you didn't understand what I mean by "discoverable". A sheet of paper, being a physical object, is quickly seen to have two sides. You hold it in your hand and can turn it over and easily discover that there is a second side, perhaps with words written on it.

In the case of Esfera, there is an ambiguous blob at the top of the window. It doesn't even look like a button but maybe the Mac's traffic lights have conditioned enough people to click on things that look like indicators instead of controls. Fair enough. So a user _may_ see that blob and try clicking on it. But here is where discoverability comes in. A maximize button (or traffic-light blob) has one function: to maximize the window (two functions if the blob doesn't change once the window is maximized. on the WMs I use, it does change). The user can click this and easily discover what the button does.

In the case of Esfera, because it uses gestures, there is no limit to the number of gestures a person might try to use. There is no easy way to discover the functionality of this blob because it is an infinite search space. Drag right? Shake it? Drag then shake? X-shaped drag? Drag up and down? Just drag it up? Up and then to the right? etc etc. How is a person supposed to guess that an X-shaped drag will result in closing the window?

The "back" of the window is an interesting concept in terms of UI but let's face it. It's exactly the same as making the app open a full-screen modal dialog. Apps don't have a "back" and it doesn't make sense for the user to imagine turning it over. They are 2 dimensional and don't have 2 sides. Any features that exist only on the back of the app will remain unseen by the user, unless they are TRAINED to "flip over" their apps to find this functionality. Why not just bury it in a menu somewhere in the app? Only if every single app had some consistent metaphor for what's ON the back of the apps would this make sense. What's on the back of a webpage? What's on the back of the calculator app? It's random and confusing.

As for dragging, I'm afraid your anecdotal evidence doesn't stand up to usability tests done by large companies such as Microsoft, whose employees have written many times about the usability and accessibility problems faced by millions of people, people for whom "dragging" (which is what gestures are) is a major problem. I'm not saying no UI should ever user dragging, but relying on it is madness. Note: using a mouse is not the same as dragging, and one main advantage of this Esfera thing is the gestures.

I'm not saying they shouldn't implement this Esfera thing. I just seriously doubt it will be revolutionary. Its two key concepts: gesture-based navigation replacing the traditional window management is full of issues as I've elaborated on, and inter-app communication is a pipe dream already, even in the GNOME and KDE camps; this blue pill isn't going to make that dream a reality.

Discoverability of Esfera gestures

Posted Mar 27, 2010 0:19 UTC (Sat) by jrn (subscriber, #64214) [Link]

From the proposal:

Clicked: the user sees a menu, in which he can choose between the different options of Esfera: close, minimise, maximise, switch workspace... this menu is thoght to make easier the life of new users.

Perhaps in this menu there would be an “about this widget” item listing the possible gestures.

Discoverability of Esfera gestures

Posted Mar 28, 2010 15:36 UTC (Sun) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

The title bar has always had a menu with menu-management operations, so for users who will never bother to learn the gestures the new Esfera menu only replaces the existing menu. They could just add gestures to the title bar and be done with this whole thing, and it wouldn't even be controversial.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 29, 2010 8:56 UTC (Mon) by Cato (subscriber, #7643) [Link]

"In my experience children, seniors, and the disabled are generally able to
use a mouse with minimal effort."

That may be your experience, but in general it is simply not true of many seniors (I know one who never managed to learn to use the mouse, despite being a qualified physician) or disabled people (due to motor control or other issues, which is why there are so many assistive devices for pointing). In the extreme case, a single on-off switch is the sole input device for the most disabled.

Many seniors have real difficulty grabbing the thin border of a window (in many GNOME themes) to resize a window. They would probably never master a complex mouse gesture needing fine motor control.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 20:11 UTC (Fri) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

Also, most gestures appear to be very unfriendly to laptop users with a trackpad. Especially drawing an "X" while holding the left button down. My wrists are hurting when I think about it.

Ubuntu should really work with usability experts, not just with designers.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 0:39 UTC (Sat) by jrn (subscriber, #64214) [Link]

I think so, too.

It is worth being fairly thorough when evaluating this sort of new UI concept. (The comments to that post include a dead link to “User- Defined Gestures for Surface Computing” (PDF).)

With a trackpad, IMHO this Esfera would not be bearable without using gestures were supported by drivers at a fairly low level. Drawing some figure on the screen with the left button held down would be fairly painful; hovering over a widget and then performing some multi- touch gesture using the whole trackpad (like the common two-finger gesture to scroll) might be less so.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 4:29 UTC (Sat) by drag (subscriber, #31333) [Link]

All I know is that if it requires gestures I am not going to use it.

I avoid the trackpad on my laptop as much as humanly possible because using it too much fcks up my wrists. I've taken the time to memorize how to use Gnome through the keyboard.

I thought Gestures were cool back when Mozilla (or was it Opera?) first supported them through extensions and through the video game 'Black and White'.

This was in 2000-2001 or so.

The attractiveness of it worn off in about a couple days. Gestures concept is just miserable and that is all there is to it. Maybe on a touchscreen it may be cool, but through the mouse and especially through a trackpad it's a miserable gimmick.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 28, 2010 10:24 UTC (Sun) by dwmw2 (subscriber, #2063) [Link]

It'll be bad with a trackpad, but it'll be even worse with a clitmouse.

The whole idea seems rather unwise, but it is only a proposal. Presumably they'd do some real usability testing before going ahead with it.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 19:56 UTC (Fri) by jengelh (subscriber, #33263) [Link]

>The back of a window is a new UI concept...

Not really. Sun had that idea with Looking Glass already.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXv8VlpoK_g

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 20:07 UTC (Fri) by Tara_Li (subscriber, #26706) [Link]

I'm confused.

Now, admitted, it's probably because I use Enlightenment dr16, so I have minimize & window roll-up buttons on the left of my title bar, and sticky, close, and fly-out for other window operations buttons on the right...

So just why does this control need to be in the right corner? I know most people are used to the paradigm coming from Windows where the minimize, maximize, and close buttons are on the left, and the right is a general window operations menu (at least, it used to be - I haven't played with Vista or 7 yet. For that matter, I'm not sure XP still has that...).

Now, OS X seems to have its controls all on the left - perhaps they're trying to unify the code base between OS X Aqua and Ubuntu? But then putting this gesture thingy on the right doesn't fit with that...

I'm just plain confused. Besides - on the back side of a window - you see what's on the front side, backwards! (Or upside down, if you flip the window that direction...) What kind of stuff do I need on that backside that isn't nicely presented in a dialog box, to be called and dismissed when needed?

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 23:26 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Windows where the minimize, maximize, and close buttons are on the left
Now I'm confused. Did you use an RtL Windows (and does it flip things over in that case?), or have you mixed up your left and your right? :)

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 6:55 UTC (Sat) by Tara_Li (subscriber, #26706) [Link]

My bad. Still - I hope you caught what I meant.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 20:42 UTC (Fri) by junkio (subscriber, #5743) [Link]

I am skeptical.

When you see "Or anything you can think of" in a proposal, it often is a sign that the author hasn't thought things through. In other words, the proposal feels more "because we can", not "because this is a good thing to have".

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 20:52 UTC (Fri) by louie (subscriber, #3285) [Link]

"When you see "Or anything you can think of" in a proposal, it often is a sign that the author hasn't
thought things through. In other words, the proposal feels more "because we can", not "because
this is a good thing to have"."

That's such a beautiful, succinct way of putting it. Thank you.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 22:35 UTC (Fri) by dsas (subscriber, #58356) [Link]

Having a button at the top right corner of a window which is likely maximised and 24px from the top edge and 0px from the right edge of the screen doesn't leave much room to be making expressive gestures.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 26, 2010 23:37 UTC (Fri) by AlexHudson (subscriber, #41828) [Link]

Isn't the top-right corner where Ubuntu puts the main 'off' button too?

Can't imagine that being pleasurable for people maximising apps...

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 0:35 UTC (Sat) by ikm (subscriber, #493) [Link]

So I've decided to try and see what the back of the window might look like. This is what I've got.

Buttons on the left, you say... It starts to make sense now. Very little of it.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 1:04 UTC (Sat) by nowster (subscriber, #67) [Link]

Surely the backside of the window should say "THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK" ?

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 2:24 UTC (Sat) by fest3er (guest, #60379) [Link]

The back side of a window could be a mirror (with the image of a cute
orangutan). It could be a comprehensive help interface, or a context-based
tutorial. It could be a 3D display of all of that type of document found
on the system. It could be an interesting message written in a runic
script; the first to translate and report wins a prize.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 2:37 UTC (Sat) by maney (subscriber, #12630) [Link]

"When a word can mean anything, it means nothing."

Wish I could remember who to credit for that...

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 6:57 UTC (Sat) by Tara_Li (subscriber, #26706) [Link]

If he didn't say it in those exact words, he certainly *ILLUSTRATED* it - Lewis Carroll.

Can I use it to minimize maximize and close windows

Posted Mar 27, 2010 3:02 UTC (Sat) by tdwebste (guest, #18154) [Link]

What is this thing? Can I use it to control my windows?

I have this great idea for the icons.

"__" minimize

__
|__| maximize

X close

The right side is a great place for this window control icons,
Window operations can be destructive. Keeping these window control
icons on the right side will keep them away for other mouse clicks.

----------

What do you think of my great new idea?

:) :)

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 4:29 UTC (Sat) by spaetz (subscriber, #32870) [Link]

ohh, come on you bunch of sceptical people. Give some UI experimentation some chance. 'What? replacing our 8 input switches with punched paper cards? They must be crazy...'

Having said that, I also agree with an earlier comment that using the whole titlebar as gesture target would be much easier to hit than this tiny spot in the corner of a screen. Also, gestures work nice with mouse-oriented people, but need additional key-shortcuts for keyboard oriented ones. I can't really see my emacs giving up one more key combination tto the window manager.

Having used Macs inbetween, I found that my muscle memory very quickly adapted to closing stuff with a button on the left.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 5:28 UTC (Sat) by alkbyby (subscriber, #61687) [Link]

I think that experimentation and search for better UI is important. What I
don't understand is why they are forcing it to their users ? Ubuntu already
has working 'addon system' (PPA) and I think they should definitely run this
experimental project, but defaults should be kept for now. Interested users
should be able to install/enable those experimental features.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 5:45 UTC (Sat) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

Mark Shuttleworth is no Steve Jobs. Repeat, Mark Shuttleworth is no Steve Jobs. Foisting arbitrary random UI change on users for the first time in a long-term release is a BAD IDEA. Especially if you want to make new converts and keep them happy. And doing it badly only makes things worse. Really, moving the close button? WTH?

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 10:22 UTC (Sat) by drs481 (subscriber, #56939) [Link]

now we all now, what Mark Shuttleworth meant by saying:
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely,and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options there"

well, fair enough, but I strongly disagree with his following statement:
"It’s much easier to do that if we make this change now."

No, it's not! Introducing _one_ part of such a big usability change just weeks(!) before the final release of an LTS(!) just makes things worse!

Introducing a new UI? Why not, go crazy about it in a non-LTS release, with months of preparation and testing of it!
Getting used to it step by step? Sure, introduce a half-way-and-not-making-sense-UI-change in 10.10 and introduce the whole package with Esfera in 11.04

But giving LTS-users 2 years of experience with a half-finished UI change that "opens up the space on the right nicely" but with no functional sense (yet) at all?! No, that _will_ fail in an epic way!

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 7:14 UTC (Sat) by abadidea (guest, #62082) [Link]

Backsides of windows is NOT entirely new... widgets in OSX have done this for years, with a cute little flippy button that usually reveals the option controls and the credits.

I had never thought of using it on "real" windows before though, and in the long run, having a "front" application and a "back" options panel may be more intuitive than Edit->Preferences, oh no, Window->Options, oh no, File->Settings...

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 8:38 UTC (Sat) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link]

All this "back of the window" thing strikes me as another consequence of having 3D compositing working, without most people ever really having anything useful to use it for. Video acceleration is undeniably useful, and 3D is great for CAD, physics simulations and blasting the bejeesus out of space aliens, but there is practically nothing it does for useability, besides blind people with its shininess.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 10:06 UTC (Sat) by callegar (guest, #16148) [Link]

IMHO it was already quite a bad idea to move the maximise, minimize, close buttons to the left.

1) There is no provable usability advantage;
2) It eliminates the application icon making windows less recognizable, since before one could implicitly rely on associative visual memory, while now the explicit effort of reading the title bar is required;
3) It makes the association between windows and windows in the taskbar weaker, since before one could rely on associative memory (the application icon was preserved in presence and position between the window bar and the entry in the task bar) and now it is not anymore the case;
4) It gratuitously breaks a convention (these buttons are on the right)
5) It increases the chance of hitting one of these buttons by mistake looking for the file menu (and to hit the window close button by mistake is not nice)...

[Guess point 5 will now be solved by right aligning menus! :-) ]

Now the idea of the "ball" is even more weird.

1)At a time when everybody is moving to sub-notebooks, tablets and the like with reduced screen estate, what is the response? Add elements to the window decoration that will make them necessarily thicker, loosing more screen estate. Remember that whenever decorations are made thicker, the lost space grows quadratically with it, since screens are 2D. And also that vertical space is precisely what one should be conservative about (my laptop only has 600 pixels in vertical resolution, compelling me to reconfigure gnome to eliminate the top panel).
2) Not everybody is using a mouse on a table. To practice gestures on some devices or in some locations (a train, a plane) is very very hard;
3) There are people who have problems at precisely pointing something and complex gestures will make life impossible to them.

Ubunut GUI enviroment inconsistency.

Posted Mar 28, 2010 1:34 UTC (Sun) by tdwebste (guest, #18154) [Link]

Ubuntu has created a GUI enviroment inconsistency.

The window minimize, maximize and close icons have been moved from the right to left.

The sub windows within the application have their minimize, maximize and close icons on the right.

Ubunut GUI enviroment inconsistency.

Posted Mar 28, 2010 14:56 UTC (Sun) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Sub-windows? I think we know what the real problem *there* is, don't we?

(MDI: a design decision so idiotic that even its inventors were railing
against it ten years after they thought it up.)

Ubunut GUI enviroment inconsistency.

Posted Mar 29, 2010 8:15 UTC (Mon) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

Clearly I'm secretly a lizardman from Antares V, disclaimers on university science fiction society membership cards notwithstanding; I like MDI much better than "WM window per document".

Ubunut GUI enviroment inconsistency.

Posted Mar 29, 2010 11:44 UTC (Mon) by SEMW (guest, #52697) [Link]

The trouble with discussions over MDI is that there are so many different (and variably rubbish) implementations of it that people end up arguing at cross-purposes, each correct from the point of view of the example they're thinking of. For example, being a fan of multiple monitors, I like Opera (and now Chrome)-style MDI, where any tab can be detached from its parent window and will form a new parent window around itself; but dislike Word 97 style MDI, where this is not possible.

Off-topicly: Lore has it that at some point it was brought to CUSU's attention that the Antares V clause violated Article B Paragraph 8 of the CUSU constitution, which prohibits discrimination of the grounds of race (CUSFS being a registered university society). Apparently they managed to negotiate a compromise, wherein they could keep the clause as-is for now, but were sternly warned that, should any lizard men from Antares V wish to join CUSFS, they would have to remove it immediately.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 27, 2010 11:53 UTC (Sat) by randiroo76073 (guest, #64763) [Link]

I can't really see anything useful in this except in application specific terms as already commented upon. Really, what information could you possibly put on the back side of a window that is not available thru the frontside menus. I think what is missing is the old concept of "KISS" Don't add things just because you can, or had a weird dream last night and put it to pen/paper !

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Mar 28, 2010 15:51 UTC (Sun) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

Exactly. There are many usability improvements that can be made at the WM level, such as tabs: let the WM and apps cooperate on tabs so that apps with built-in tabs can expose them to the WM and apps without tabs can have them added by the WM. Then you gain potentially increased flexibility plus increased consistency, making using the whole desktop easier.

The inter-app communication part of Esfera is interesting but Esfera is a GUI widget and not an RPC protocol. We don't need one to have the other and cross-app protocols have been notoriously difficult. Windows has been doing this for decades, and while the drag-and-drop aspects are better than on Linux they are still fairly primitive. I'd love to be able to integrate all the video players and editors and galleries together, so that they all cooperate, but that requires zero input from the desktop people and 100% input from the authors of those particular apps (at least, until a standard is designed which can then become "ratified" by the DE). I'd love to see this happen, but I doubt I'll be using an Esfera to do it.

Not another circle...

Posted Mar 29, 2010 11:09 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (subscriber, #50784) [Link]

It's bad enough with everyone's continuous obsession with Mac OS X and that platform's ridiculous "coloured spheres": three identical shapes differing only in colour; a usability disaster that is only praised as "top design" because Apple did it. It's reminiscent of the scene in Demolition Man where the main character emerges from the bathroom, failing to have figured out how to operate the "seashells".

And although gestures are still the big thing, I think the Ubuntu people should spend a bit more time watching people in the real world struggle with the input devices and interfaces they've already got before giving them (or exacerbating) their carpal tunnel syndrome.

What to do with the top-right window space: Esfera

Posted Apr 1, 2010 20:52 UTC (Thu) by aegl (subscriber, #37581) [Link]

I'm sure that some enterprising soul will soon decide that treating windows
as two dimensional objects with just a "front" and a "back" is too limiting.
They'll move on to make windows three dimensional ... so some other set of
wrist flips will just spin them just ninety degrees around some axis so you
can see the "top" of the cuboid, or the "port-side", or the "underbelly".

When six views aren't enough, we will move to a 4-D metaphor. But good luck
trying to flip the hyper-cube back around to find the "front" of your
application if you are ever so foolish as to mouse gesture equivalent of the
rite of ashkente so see what is on the para-left-meta-bottom side of your
web page.

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