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Firefox to support Theora video

By Jake Edge
August 6, 2008

Video in the browser, at least for Linux, has always resorted to somewhat clunky solutions—Flash plug-ins or external programs—but that is likely to change in Firefox 3.1. Recent commits to the Firefox development tree have added support for the HTML 5 <video> and <audio> tags as well as native Ogg Vorbis and Theora support. Providing multimedia support directly in a free browser, with no plug-in required, is a huge step forward both for Linux and for the royalty-free codecs.

The battle over video and audio formats is an ugly one, largely because they are patent minefields. The "mainstream" formats, MPEG-4 for video and MP3 for audio, are licensed on a royalty basis to companies that want to implement playback. Obviously, Mozilla is not in a position to pay a per-installation royalty, so that leaves various ad hoc methods using Javascript and plug-ins—that users have to track down—to make audio-video playback work in its browser.

[Firefox showing video]

Trying the new feature (seen at left) on one of the recent nightly Firefox builds seemed to work pretty well given that it is still under development. The video played smoothly, but the audio was not functional, only producing a rumbling, clicking soundtrack. The Wikimedia Commons video collection was used to test as it is a nice collection of Theora videos.

Some have seen the lack of Theora content currently on the web as a reason to downplay Firefox's support for the format, which is unfortunate, as Mozilla hacker Robert O'Callahan was quick to point out. Unlike the current situation, once a Firefox with video support is released, there will be one format that all content producers can be sure will be available for Firefox. Depending on whose numbers you believe that means that somewhere between 10 and 25% of web surfers (or more than 100 million people) will be using it.

Even with the dominance of Internet Explorer, the plethora of codec plug-ins has made it somewhat difficult for content providers to decide upon which video formats to support. With a substantial fraction of browsers supporting a particular free format, that situation may change. Wikimedia will certainly help by providing reasons for those not using Firefox to demand Theora plug-ins—if not integrated Theora support—for their browsers. As more content is available in that format, the pressure will build on Microsoft and Apple. As we mentioned in an article on web video formats last December, more content is the key to Theora support.

Some have argued that Vorbis and Theora are just as likely to be patent-encumbered as the more mainstream codecs, but so far that is unproven. There is no licensing authority that claims to have patents covering those codecs. Though Mozilla has some depth to its pockets—largely due to its deal with Google—patent holders might be loathe to attack a free software browser. In many ways, patent holders risk upsetting their entire apple cart if their attacks rise too high into the public consciousness. Though, clearly, Mozilla will be taking on some amount of risk with this move.

There have also been arguments that the Theora codec produces inferior video compared to those used by MPEG-4 and others. There is certainly truth to that assertion, but there is ongoing work to bring Theora more in line with the quality of its competitors. Due to the fact that it isn't controlled by a licensing authority with little or no interest in improving it, there is hope that Theora, or some descendant of it, could produce superior results some day.

Dirac—also known by the name of its C language implementation Schrödinger—is another royalty-free codec that is being looked at for inclusion into Firefox. There are currently some performance issues with decoding, but if those get resolved, there might be two free choices for video codecs in Firefox.

There are lots of entrenched interests that would like to see Theora, Vorbis, Dirac, and others like them disappear. They are quite happy with the current state of affairs. For the most part, though, users are not. Even on "well supported" platforms, video—and to a lesser extent audio—is a confusing jumble of plug-ins and formats that make it somewhat painful to use. Flash and Silverlight are supposed to "solve" these problems, but they do it in a not-quite-free way that still requires plug-ins. If web users start to find it easier to use the video formats embedded in their browser, and content producers take notice, it could completely change video on the web.



to post comments

Theora is getting *much* better

Posted Aug 7, 2008 2:16 UTC (Thu) by leonov (guest, #6295) [Link] (1 responses)

After a couple of years of slow development, and pretty poor performance, Theora is now
getting a real shot in the arm with the 'Thusnelda' project.

Robert O'Callahan linked to the last in a fascinated series of illustrated diary entries from
Monty.  They are well worth reading in full, and show absolutely huge improvements in the
quality of Theora encoded videos.

They date from sometime around March, to just a few days ago:

http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo.html
http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo2.html
http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo3.html
http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo4.html
http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo5.html

Theora is getting *much* better

Posted Aug 8, 2008 10:33 UTC (Fri) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link]

Good reads, thanks for the links.

Hooray!

Posted Aug 7, 2008 6:12 UTC (Thu) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

This is absolutely great news! Among other things, it could help us poor Linux users in Finland to convince the governmental broadcasting authority, YLE, to release its online archive as Theora. It currently has a lot of interesting (for Finns) material openly available, and not DRM-protected, but teases and tortures all non-Windows users by using Microsoft's video formats. The main excuse from YLE for this has been that it makes viewing them easiest for most users. But this becomes a quite hollow argument, after the browser that according to some recent estimates has a 45% market share in Finland has support for a truly open video format built-in!

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 7, 2008 11:33 UTC (Thu) by hthoma (subscriber, #4743) [Link] (3 responses)

I would like to comment on this statement:

"Due to the fact that it isn't controlled by a licensing authority with little or no interest
in improving it, there is hope that Theora, or some descendant of it, could produce superior
results some day."

WMV may be controlled by Micro$oft, but e.g the MPEG codecs are by no means controlled by the
licensing authority, at least not in a way that prevents improvement. In fact there is fierce
competition between the different vendors of MPEG codecs to improve the quality of their
implementations.


Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 7, 2008 20:57 UTC (Thu) by salimma (subscriber, #34460) [Link] (2 responses)

Improving the quality of implementation, yes. But it's harder to actually extend the format
itself -- witness the various unofficial extensions to MP3, none of them have become very
widespread.

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 8, 2008 8:43 UTC (Fri) by hthoma (subscriber, #4743) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, the "official" successor to MP3 is AAC, and the successor to that is HE-AAC. And these
are in widespread use, e.g. in the iPod or in 3G mobile phones.

Usually the *users* of standards don't want them to change, because they want to support a
potentially large installed base for a long time. This is especially true in consumer
electronics. (Take MPEG-2 video as example. This was finalized in 1995 and is still in
widespread use.) The situation is somewhat different in the computer world. You can always
download the latest and greatest codecs, but even this may be annoying sometimes.

If it works, it is obsolete...

Posted Aug 11, 2008 7:46 UTC (Mon) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

(Take MPEG-2 video as example. This was finalized in 1995 and is still in widespread use.)

In fact, one could say MPEG-2 has just started its life as the mainstream video coding... In Finland, the analogue TV transmission were cut off only about a year ago, in favour of the the DVB system, which uses MPEG-2. In most other European countries analogue TV is still in use.

Naturally all techies now say we now have a totally obsolete digital TV system which soon must be replaced with a modern system using MPEG-4 and HDTV. Theoretically true, but by the time the system and all users have been upgraded again, MPEG-4 will certainly be itself obsolete...

The situation is somewhat different in the computer world. You can always download the latest and greatest codecs, but even this may be annoying sometimes.

Not to mention the loss of easy access to material in older formats when codec support for it is dropped in favour of the latest and greatest. (eg. try decoding Indeo4-compressed AVI files on a current system (Linux or Windows, does not matter - possible, but requires a codec hunt).

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 7, 2008 16:12 UTC (Thu) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link] (3 responses)

I predict that <video> will be very slow to catch on.  The standard <object> tag from HTML4
solves this problem much more elegantly.  Indeed, <object> is stated in the HTML4 technical
report to be preferable even to the widely used <img> tag.  With <video>, the HTML5 working
group have taken a giant leap backwards into the dark old days of HTML3.

<object> allows the browser to choose from among a group of alternative content.  <object>
would allow the web designer to give the browser a choice between Ogg Theora video, Flash
video, a still image, or explanatory text.  This would be the best implementation because
people with FF3 would get the built-in video, people without FF3 would get Flash video, and
people without Flash would get the still image.  People using a VT100 could read the text
instead.  With the HTML5 <video> tag web designers will now need to hack up some kind of
javascript code to detect the presence of <video> support, and switch between Ogg and Flash as
needed.

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/objects.html#h-13.1

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 8, 2008 8:09 UTC (Fri) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

img does too, with content-negotiation, which hardly anyone ever uses.
You can say img src="images/logo" and then tell Apache or IIS to do content-negotiation, that
is, send the format which the broweser prefers. (based on the ordering in the accept-header,
if I remember correctly)

So a browser that said Accept: image/svg, image/png, image/jpg, */* would get logo.svg (if
existing), whereas one without support for svg would get the png-one (if existing).

It's a real shame that neither this, nor language-negotiation is typically used for anything
at all. It's kinda neat.

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 9, 2008 18:11 UTC (Sat) by gerv (guest, #3376) [Link] (1 responses)

The standard <object> tag from HTML4 solves this problem much more elegantly.

But browser makers who actually have to implement it hate it, and prefer more specific tags (see discussion on the WHAT-WG mailing list, and the rationale for creating <video> and <audio>).

It seems that the WHAT-WG goes for pragmatism, what works and what can be coded and deployed easily over theoretical purity. That's one of the things that distinguishes it from the W3C (although the joint working of the two organisations may indicate a change there). This approach has the advantage of things actually getting implemented.

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 9, 2008 18:48 UTC (Sat) by jwb (guest, #15467) [Link]

I just did some tests with MSIE and it seems that <object> inside <video> does what you'd want
on that browser, so my objection is wrong.  I tested this before but I must have screwed it
up.  I now don't think you'd need any kind of javascript to sniff the <video> tag since MSIE
just ignores it and parses down to <object>.

FLAC

Posted Aug 8, 2008 18:02 UTC (Fri) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (4 responses)

No one is talking about FLAC. While Vorbis is good, a lossless audio format would be nice too.

FLAC

Posted Aug 13, 2008 7:59 UTC (Wed) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes, but only in high-broadband-penetration land :)

FLAC

Posted Aug 14, 2008 13:58 UTC (Thu) by forthy (guest, #1525) [Link] (2 responses)

Actually, what I'd like to have is a "correction stream" format. I.e. you have a lossy format, and delta side-streams which give you more quality, up to lossless. You need a real-time protocol to make sure that the lossy format passes, and the optional side-stream is dropped when the bandwidth is not sufficient.

This should work with video as well, where the side-streams can be even larger, e.g. a youtube-size/quality main stream, and up to HD quality from the various side-streams. Even to-the-air broadcasts could avoid the "digital" effect of digital TV broadcasting when they interleave these streams in such a way that a noisy signal only kills the high quality stream, and the low quality one is encoded in the most reliable bits.

FLAC

Posted Aug 19, 2008 17:59 UTC (Tue) by job (guest, #670) [Link]

This would be a very useful feature. Not just to achieve lossless, but to scale the quality to
the available bandwidth so a server can serve more clients but at the cost of lower quality
when necessary. Some products such as Windows Media does this already but that's the kind of
plugins this whole thing is designed to avoid.

Vorbis does this, almost

Posted Aug 28, 2008 8:48 UTC (Thu) by dion (guest, #2764) [Link]

As far as I rememer Ogg Vorbis streams can drop quality simply by dropping bits from the stream.

So it should be entirely possible to create a high-bandwidth Vorbis stream and dynamically drop quality in the web server for each client as it streams.

Firefox to support Theora^W Dirac? video

Posted Aug 13, 2008 7:58 UTC (Wed) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]

I certainly hope that Dirac makes it. While I haven't yet done any comparisons, I heard that
it's technically more advanced and, well, better codec than Theora (probably even with recent
optimisations). It would be really bad if it missed the boat and would not be considered as
"one format that all content producers can be sure will be available for Firefox".

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 14, 2008 15:59 UTC (Thu) by wmf (guest, #33791) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm sure this will be controversial, but Mozilla *is* able to pay per-copy codec royalties;
after all, they have tens of millions of dollars per year in revenue. They choose not to use
technically superior industry-standard codecs to encourage royalty-free standards.

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 15, 2008 1:21 UTC (Fri) by dmag (guest, #17775) [Link]

Hmm, I have two problems with that statement. 
 
First, it's not clear that Mozilla has enough money pull this off. 
Someone should calculate the $/download that they have today. (or is it 
downloads per dollar?)  And there's the little question of what happens 
if they run low on funds: Stop distributing mozilla or rip out the video? 
 
Second, you assume those funds wouldn't do anything useful otherwise. I'd 
rather they fund people to hack on mozilla and/or find a replacement for 
proprietary formats. 
 

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 14, 2008 16:28 UTC (Thu) by kdekorte (guest, #39090) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, I don't think this support is going to change the web overnight. I think for a long time
we will need video plugins like mplayerplug-in, gecko-mediaplayer or totem to handle websites.


As the developer of mplayerplug-in and gecko-mediaplayer I see many sites that still use the
older tags and are in no hurry to change. I also have been noticing that most video playback
is moving to flash (except for MS sites) so that is emerging as the standard at the moment.

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 15, 2008 3:09 UTC (Fri) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

We don't think it's going to change the Web overnight either. But we've got to start
somewhere.

H.261 and MPEG-1 should also be looked into

Posted Aug 15, 2008 4:13 UTC (Fri) by jrincayc (guest, #29129) [Link]

It would also be useful if Firefox could look into supporting H.261 (an 1990 standard for video transmission) and MPEG-1 with Layer 2 Audio. Both do not have any one requesting royalties from any patents that I know of, and are old enough for many if not all of their patents to have expired. I put up what I know about MPEG-1 and H.261 patent status up at wikia and a kuro5hin article.

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 15, 2008 20:56 UTC (Fri) by Gyruss (guest, #53398) [Link] (1 responses)

Where's the drag-and-drop app to transcode and remux flv, mkv, avi, etc. containers into ogm?
MediaCoder doesn't count, and it doesn't help that any Google search that includes "transcode"
and "ogm" has close to 45,000 results for pages discussing how to transcode FROM ogm to other
formats.
What happened to the OGMtools project on corecodec?

Firefox to support Theora video

Posted Aug 17, 2008 17:31 UTC (Sun) by njwhite (guest, #51848) [Link]

I believe oggconvert (http://oggconvert.tristanb.net/) is what you're thinking of. It's pretty
young, ]and didn't produce reasonable transcodings for me, but it certainly looks to be going
the right direction. It hooks into gstreamer, so gets all their codecs & cleverness for free.


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