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The end of the Fedora Foundation

From:  Max Spevack <mspevack-AT-redhat.com>
To:  fedora-announce-list-AT-redhat.com
Subject:  Fedora Foundation
Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:55:32 -0400 (EDT)

To my fellow Fedora community members:

As many of you are aware, FUDCon Boston is this Friday.  One of the most 
important topics that we will be discussing there is the future of the 
Fedora Project, specifically with regard to the Fedora Foundation.

I'd like to ask you all to read the document that follows this note.  It 
reviews Red Hat's intentions in initially announcing the Fedora 
Foundation, and outlines the problems that have led us to the decision to 
move in a different direction.  It also discusses the plan that we are 
implementing instead, and the steps that we are taking to ensure that the 
Fedora Project continues to thrive and grow.

It is as complete, honest, and transparent as we can make it.  If you feel 
that there are places in which it lacks those qualities, call us on it, 
and we will respond.

This document represents the work of many people both inside of Red Hat 
and within the Fedora community.  It is a long read, but a very worthwhile 
one.

So take a look, read, digest, and share your thoughts.  I look forward to 
discussing this in great detail on email, and also with as many of you as 
possible in person at LinuxWorld and at FUDCon over the next few days. 
Many of Red Hat's most active Fedora folks will be at those two shows, so 
please come and talk with us.

Sincerely,
Max Spevack

=========================

Last June, Red Hat announced its intention to launch the Fedora 
Foundation.  We've had a lot of smart people working hard to make this 
Foundation happen, but in the end, it just didn't help to accomplish our 
goals for Fedora.  Instead, we are restructuring Fedora Project, with 
dramatically increased leadership from within the Fedora community.

The next obvious question -- "Why no Foundation?" -- deserves a detailed 
explanation.

===

WHY NO FOUNDATION?

When we announced the Foundation, it was with a very specific purpose, and 
in a very specific context.  The announcement was made by Mark Webbink, 
who has been the intellectual property guru at Red Hat for a long time 
now.  His stated goal for the Foundation: to act as a repository for 
patents that would protect the interests of the open source community.

Once we announced the intention to form a Foundation, people inside and 
outside of Red Hat were interested in working beyond the stated purpose -- 
an intellectual property repository -- and instead saw this new Foundation 
as a potential tool to solve all sorts of Fedora-related issues.  Every 
Fedora issue became a nail for the Foundation hammer, and the scope of the 
Foundation quickly became too large for efficient progress.

A team moved forward to create the Foundation itself.  We created the 
legal entity, came up with some very basic and flexible bylaws, and 
appointed a board to run it temporarily.  This all happened pretty 
quickly, because this was the easy part.  We had articles of incorporation 
in September 2005.

Then came the hard part: articulating the precise responsibilities of the 
Foundation.  This conversation took months, but ultimately it came back 
around, again and again, to a single question: "What could a Fedora 
Foundation accomplish that the Fedora Project, with strong community 
leadership, could not accomplish?"

So here, in order, were the possible answers to that question -- and why 
we found, in every single case, that the Fedora Foundation was not the 
right answer.

ONE: The Fedora Foundation could be an entity for the development of an 
open source patent commons.

This was the obvious starting place, and what we actually announced. One 
of the lurking concerns of the open source community is the threat of 
software patents.  The Fedora Foundation could have been an ideal 
repository for defensive patents.  We envisioned soliciting patentable 
ideas from businesses and/or individuals, paying for the prosecution of 
these patents, and then guaranteeing open source developers the 
unrestricted right to code against these patents using a similar mechanism 
to the Red Hat patent promise. 
(http://www.redhat.com/legal/patent_policy.html).

What we weren't counting on was the rapid progress of the Open Invention 
Network (http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/press.html), which serves a 
similar purpose for businesses in a much more compelling way.  Without 
going into too much detail, it became clear to us that OIN is going to be 
the 800-pound gorilla in the patent commons space, and we were eager to 
join forces.

OK, so much for soliciting patents from businesses.  What about 
individuals?  If we were to focus the Fedora Foundation's efforts on 
soliciting patentable ideas from individuals, how many could we get?  Our 
gut decision: not many.  Most developers who actually work for a living 
have agreements with their employers that prevent them from pursuing 
patents independently.  Many university students who pursue patents are 
required to grant them to the university.

After putting a lot of work into the idea of a Fedora Foundation patent 
commons, in the end it just didn't seem compelling.  So we shelved the 
idea.

TWO: The Fedora Foundation could act as a single point of standing for 
legal issues.

The Free Software Foundation serves this purpose for the GNU projects. 
We thought that the Fedora Foundation might successfully serve the same 
purpose for Fedora projects.  Have you ever noticed that the GNU projects 
all require contributors to assign copyright to the FSF?  That's because 
there's this legal idea called "standing" that matters deeply to lawyers 
and judges.  Here's a little skit that helps to explain why standing is 
important:

BAILIFF: Come to order for case Z-38-BB-92.  Plaintiff is Small Software 
Project.  Defendant is Great Big Computer Corporation.

JUDGE: OK, have a seat, folks.  The docket is busy today, and I've got a 
doctor's appointment in two hours.  Plaintiff, what's this all about?

PLAINTIFF'S COUNSEL: Well, your honor, there's this license called the GPL 
that the defendant is *totally* violating.  Basically, they stole the 
plaintiff's code and put it into their software program.

DEFENDANT'S COUNSEL: Hold it right there.  Your Honor, plaintiff doesn't 
have standing in this case.  There's 100 different developers that wrote 
this code, and the plaintiff only represents six of them.  Plaintiff 
clearly doesn't even have the legal right to sue us, Your Honor.

JUDGE: Looks like this case could be Pretty Hard, and this whole 
"standing" thing gives me a perfect excuse not to think about it. 
Counsel, get back to me when you've got the other 94 plaintiffs.

So, standing is a big concern.  In the world of lawyers, it's one of the 
big potential unknowns around defending open source projects, especially 
projects that have lots of contributors.

The obvious problem with establishing standing in this way, though, is 
that a single entity *must* own *everything* in your project.  That's why 
the FSF *requires* copyright assignment.

What Fedora projects currently exist where copyright assignment makes 
sense?

Well... none, as it turns out.  Let's look at some of the current Fedora 
projects as examples.

At present, the two most successful Fedora projects are Core and Extras -- 
which, together, basically constitute a big Linux distribution.  And what 
is a distribution?  Ideally, it's a high-quality repackaging and 
integration of content owned by others.  That's the whole point.  In such 
cases, copyright assignment makes no sense at all.

Then there's the Fedora Documentation project, which produces 
documentation and makes it available under the Open Publication License 
(http://opencontent.org/openpub/) without options.  Given the liberal 
nature of this license, it just doesn't seem all that useful to ask 
contributors to assign copyright for defense of these works.

Then there's the Fedora Directory Server, which Red Hat purchased and open 
sourced.  No question who holds standing there; it's Red Hat.  The time 
may come when the Fedora Directory Server project is ready to incorporate 
lots of changes from the community, but until that time comes, the 
question of copyright assignment is pretty much a theoretical question.

Which is what a lot of this comes down to -- the question of legal 
standing is either an open or theoretical question at best, and probably 
better left to an organization such as the FSF that focuses a great deal 
more attention on these types of questions.

Put another way: we have a finite amount of resources to make Fedora 
better.  How much of that cash should be going to expensive lawyers -- 
especially if Red Hat already has lawyers who have a strong incentive to 
defend Fedora, should such a defense prove to be necessary?

So the Fedora Foundation didn't seem compelling as a mechanism for 
copyright assignment, either.

THREE: The Fedora Foundation could act as an entity for funding 
Fedora-related activities that Red Hat didn't have great interest in 
funding.

Funny thing, that.  We asked some of our closest friends this question: 
"Would you donate to an independent Fedora Foundation?"  The answers were 
very interesting, and ran the gamut.  Some people were incredibly 
enthusiastic: "We'd love to give money!"  Some were neutral: "Thanks, but 
we'd rather contribute code."  And some were less enthusiastic: "Red Hat 
is a successful, profitable company.  Why are you asking *me* for money?"

Here's another funny thing: if you choose to incorporate as a non-profit 
entity in the United States, then you subject yourself to a number of 
rigorous IRS tax tests.  One of these tests is the "public support test." 
If you say you're a public charity, well by golly, you have to prove it. 
If, within four years, you aren't collecting fully one third of your money 
from public sources, then you're not actually a public charity.

People are always shocked when we tell them how many resources Red Hat 
puts into Fedora.  If we were to make the Fedora Foundation a truly 
independent entity, then we'd have to track every dime of that expense as 
"in-kind contributions".  That means we'd have to track:

* The cost of bandwidth for distributing Fedora to the world;

* Every hour that Red Hat engineers spend working on Fedora, whether that 
is the actual writing of code, release engineering, testing, etc.;

* Legal expenses of running a Foundation;

* Administrative expenses of running a Foundation.

As an intellectual exercise, let's ignore all of those numbers for now 
except for bandwidth.  Back in the day, when Red Hat would release a 
distro, we would regularly get angry calls from network admins at big 
datacenters, complaining that we were eating all of their bandwidth.  If 
you ever meet any of our IT guys over a beer, be sure to ask them about 
the time we melted a switch at UUNet.

The demand for Fedora is every bit as high, and the March 20 release of 
Fedora Core 5 was no exception.  So let's take a conservative guess and 
say that the bandwidth cost for distributing Fedora comes to $1.5 million 
a year.  Yes, even though we have BitTorrent trackers and Fedora mirror 
sites worldwide.

That means that a public Fedora Foundation would have to raise $750k in 
public funds -- remember the one-third public support test -- every single 
year, just to pay for *bandwidth*, assuming no growth and no other 
expenses.

So what would happen, under such a scenario, if Red Hat were to decide to 
spend more money on Fedora?  Because that's exactly what Red Hat wants to 
do.

There were alternatives to the public charity angle.  We could have set up 
a private operating foundation, and we explored this avenue -- but then it 
wouldn't really be an independent entity.  It would be a shell.  The fact 
that Red Hat would still likely bear the legal risk of Foundation 
decisions, and the complication of raising public funds, made any 501(c) 
less attractive.

In short: the fund raising burden for a truly independent Fedora 
Foundation would be terrifying.  So the Fedora Foundation clearly wasn't 
compelling as a fund raising entity -- if anything, it represented an 
impediment to building a better Fedora Project.

FOUR: The Fedora Foundation could provide mechanisms for more community 
participation in key decision-making processes.

>From the day the Fedora Project was started over two years ago, it's been 
our goal to build these mechanisms, Foundation or no Foundation.  How 
successful have we been?

Initially, we had some problems.  In the last year, though, we've had some 
pretty clear successes.  The Fedora Extras project is a good example here. 
When we officially launched it in February 2005 at FUDCon Boston, we put 
together a steering committee that consisted of a pretty even mix of Red 
Hat and community packagers.  At FUDCon Germany last summer, we 
strengthened the group with more European members.  Earlier this year, we 
successfully handed off leadership of the committee to a community member. 
Red Hat continues to provide logistical and legal support, but Fedora 
Extras policy is determined by the community.

So what happens when the Fedora Extras Steering Committee (also known as 
FESCO) runs into difficulty?  Well, they escalate the issue to "the 
Board."  And who is "the Board?"  It's been the people running the Fedora 
Foundation -- but it's also been the people running the Fedora Project. 
Whenever "the Board" had been asked to make a decision, there's been no 
practical distinction between "Project" and "Foundation."

What *is* vital, whether we're talking about "The Foundation" or "The 
Project," is the actual presence of community members on the board -- but 
more on that later.

FIVE: The Fedora Foundation could serve as a truly independent entity, 
providing the ability for Fedora to grow separately from Red Hat's 
interests.

This is the real heart of the matter.  This is what some people want to 
see: a more independent Fedora.  This is The Question That Must Be 
Answered.

The simple and honest answer: Red Hat *must* maintain a certain amount of 
control over Fedora decisions, because Red Hat's business model *depends* 
upon Fedora.  Red Hat contributes millions of dollars in staff and 
resources to the success of Fedora, and Red Hat also accepts all of the 
legal risk for Fedora.  Therefore, Red Hat will sometimes need to make 
tough decisions about Fedora.  We won't do it often, and when we do, we 
will discuss the rationale behind such decisions as openly as we can -- as 
we did with the recent Mono decision.

But just because Red Hat has veto power over decisions, it does not follow 
that Red Hat wants to use that power.  Nor does it follow that Red Hat 
must make all of the important decisions about Fedora.  In fact, effective 
community decision making is one of the most direct measures of Fedora's 
success.

The most important promise about Fedora -- once free, always free -- still 
stands.  We aim to set the standard for open source innovation.  A truly 
open Fedora Project is what makes that possible.

===

THE NEW FEDORA PROJECT LEADERSHIP MODEL

Since Fedora's inception two years ago, a diverse global community has 
developed around Fedora -- and, as in any open source project, natural 
leaders have emerged.  The time has come to reward some of these leaders 
with the opportunity to define the direction of the Fedora Project at the 
highest level.

Therefore, we've reconstituted the Fedora Project Board to include these 
community leaders directly.

Initially, there are nine board members: five Red Hat members and four 
Fedora community members.  This Board is responsible for making all of the 
operational decisions of the greater Fedora project, including decisions 
about budget and strategic direction.

In addition to the nine board members, there is also be a chairman 
appointed by Red Hat, who has veto power over any decision.  It's our 
expectation that this veto power will be used infrequently, since we're 
all aware of the negative consequences that could arise from the use of 
such power in a community project.

The chairman of the Fedora Project is Max Spevack.  Max has been with Red 
Hat since 2004, previously as a QA engineer and QA team lead for Red Hat 
Network.  He is a member of the Fedora Ambassadors steering committee, and 
has been a Linux user since 1999.

The Fedora Project board members from Red Hat are Jeremy Katz, Bill 
Nottingham, Elliot Lee, Chris Blizzard, and Rahul Sundaram.

Jeremy Katz is a Red Hat engineer.  He is the longtime maintainer for 
Anaconda, and a founding member of the Fedora Extras steering committee.

Bill Nottingham joined Red Hat in May of 1998, working on projects ranging 
from the initial port of Red Hat Linux to ia64, booting and hardware 
detection, multilib content definition and fixing, and is currently doing 
work related to stateless Linux. He's also been involved in various 
technical lead details, such as package CVS infrastructure and 
distribution content definition.

Elliot Lee has been a software engineer at Red Hat since 1996. His open 
source contributions include release engineering for Fedora Core, 
co-founding the GNOME project, and maintaining assorted open source 
libraries and utilities.  He is a founding member of the Fedora Extras 
steering committee.  Elliot current leads the Fedora infrastructure team, 
making it easier and enjoyable for contributors to get more done.

Chris Blizzard is an engineering manager for Red Hat.  He has served on 
the board of the Mozilla Foundation, and is currently leading the One 
Laptop Per Child project for Red Hat.

Rahul Sundaram is a Red Hat associate based in Pune, India.  He is a 
longstanding contributor to multiple Fedora projects, a Fedora Ambassador 
for India, and a member of the Fedora Ambassadors steering committee.

The Fedora Project board members from the community are Seth Vidal, Paul 
W.  Frields, Rex Dieter, and a fourth board member to be named as soon as 
possible.

Seth Vidal is the project lead for yum, which is one of the key building 
blocks for software management in Fedora.  He also maintains mock, the 
basis for the Fedora Extras build system.  He is a founding member of the 
Fedora Extras steering committee, and he was one of the people chiefly 
responsible for the first ever release of Fedora Extras packages in 2005. 
Seth is also the lead administrator of the infrastructure at 
fedoraproject.org, which includes the Fedora project wiki, RSS feed 
aggregator, and bittorrent server.

Paul W. Frields has been a Linux user and enthusiast since 1997, and 
joined the Fedora Documentation Project in 2003, shortly after the launch 
of Fedora.  As contributing writer, editor, and a founding member of the 
Documentation Project steering committee, Paul has worked on a variety of 
tasks, including the Documentation Guide, the Installation Guide, the 
document building infrastructure, and the soon-to-emerge RPM packaging 
toolchain.  Paul is also a Fedora Extras package maintainer.

Rex Dieter works as Computer System Administrator in the Mathematics 
Department at the University of Nebraska Lincoln.  Rex is a KDE advocate 
and founded the KDE Red Hat project.  He is also an active contributor to 
Fedora Extras.  Rex lives in Omaha, Nebraka, with his wife, 2 children, 
and 4 cats.

It's true that a lot of the key governance details -- term length, board 
composition, election or appointment process -- have yet to be resolved. 
One of the first responsibilities of the new board will be to work with 
the Fedora community to answer these questions.

===

Red Hat has been supporting a free Linux distribution for over ten years, 
and Red Hat will *always* support a free Linux distribution.  We want to 
work together with the Fedora community to make Fedora better.  We want a 
Fedora that is a true partnership between Red Hat and the community.  We 
want to build effective models to make that partnership real.  We want to 
see the folks at MySQL managing MySQL in Fedora.  We want to see the folks 
from kde.org managing KDE in Fedora.  We want to see the folks at Planet 
CCRMA managing audio production applications in Fedora.  We want Fedora to 
be a launching pad not just for open source software, but for open content 
of all kinds.  We want the Fedora Project to be a way to fill the 
community with high quality software and content, and we want to empower 
the Fedora community to innovate in ways we'd never even considered.

The new Fedora Project Board has a strong mandate to make these things 
happen, and has the full support of Red Hat.  We ask that you, the members 
of the Fedora community, give them your full support as well, and we thank 
you for all the support you've given us so far.  We would not have made it 
nearly this far without your patience, your friendship, and your tireless 
help.

-- 
fedora-announce-list mailing list
fedora-announce-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list



to post comments

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 15:08 UTC (Wed) by philips (guest, #937) [Link] (15 responses)

Most people who cared and used RHL for many years already went off of the RH/Fedora few years ago. Some went SUSE, some went Mandrake, some went Debian.

IOW, I hardly understand the target audience of the letter. As if somebody had illusions where control of Fedora have been all this years...

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 15:39 UTC (Wed) by thomask (guest, #17985) [Link]

I agree. Anyone who really thought Fedora was going to become a decent community-orientated project along the lines of Ubuntu/Debian/Gentoo etc. was suffering from some delusions.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 15:40 UTC (Wed) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link] (8 responses)

Most people who cared and used RHL for many years already went off of the RH/Fedora few years ago.

Do you have any data to back up this claim?

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 16:03 UTC (Wed) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] (4 responses)

Do you have any data to back up this claim?
Assuming RH aren't lying about the amount of bandwidth the Fedora Core 5 isos sucked up, I'd go as far to say the data we have contradicts, rather than supports that claim. Unless, of course, "No-one goes there anymore, its too crowded."

Besides, the Linux Kernel isn't a community project; it's ruled by a sometimes-benevolent dictator (and don't even get me started on the management structure of OpenBSD). It's equally difficult to get code into FSF projects like GCC and emacs. Why is it necessarily a bad thing if Linux distributions are managed in the same way?

PS : the idea that people would switch to Novell's SuSE Linux because its a community-run project is too silly for words.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 16:46 UTC (Wed) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] (3 responses)

Communitee driven means how much outsiders work on the project as opposed to employees. The kernel is a communitee driven project. Linus doesn't pay any of the kernel developers they all come from random parts of the communitee.

Communitee doesn't mean good or bad. There are some sucky communitee driven projects.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 18:55 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (2 responses)

That definition of 'community' is nonsensical; these days the vast majority of the work on Free or Open Source Software is done by people paid to work on that software; ie employees of some other entity. This is especially true of the Linux kernel.

You are confused in your defintion of "community", because that can be defined in many different ways. Do you perhaps mean a community of *users* or a community of *developers*? Using the former, I don't know of any distributions which can be called "community-driven", but using the latter, nearly everyone qualifies, including Fedora.

Free Software has always been about contribution; The best way to influence the process of your favorite project is to, well, contribute some work.

Note that crucial word: Contribution.

The majority of the developers contributing to Fedora are paid by RedHat and thus work towards RedHat's interests. Why shouldn't RedHat have the largest say in what Fedora does?

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 6, 2006 22:51 UTC (Thu) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link] (1 responses)

The key to what I was saying was that it's not _Linus's_ employee's who work on the kernel. It's employee's from RedHat, IBM, Novell etc who work on the kernel.

This affects how work is done. Linus doesn't say, "Bob, you work on devfs. Steve you work on preemption." Everyone decides for themselves what to work on. Sometimes the community can decide that some areas need more focus.

Obviously, Debian is a community effort. So it can be done.

When Fedora first launched some people hoped more developers would join the Fedora community and maintain packages. For example, Abiword was completely broken in rh9 and it caused the Abiword developers a lot of support headaches. If they could just distribute their own RPMs through the Fedora project maybe they could have avoided that.

It didn't turn out that way.

These days if Abiword was broken the developers would hopefully notice it before it went gold and file a bugzilla entry. So it's an improvement from before at least...

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 7, 2006 16:37 UTC (Fri) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

These day the upstream Abiword developers maintain the packages themselves in Fedora Extras and they like it better now than ever.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 16:05 UTC (Wed) by lolando (guest, #7139) [Link]

I have no idea about the claim or its validity, but Netcraft did show a net increase in Debian usage over the last few years.

Informal poll re: moving from Fedora to ...??

Posted Apr 5, 2006 16:15 UTC (Wed) by azhrei_fje (guest, #26148) [Link] (1 responses)

How about an informal poll (probably not here, though!).

In my experience as an educator (I do contract Linux training), students
that want to learn Linux will choose SUSE for use at home (more eye
candy). Sometimes a student whose company is running RHEL will choose
Fedora to use at home, in order to have the same core. Sometimes not.

I would say the ratio is roughly 2:1 OpenSUSE vs. Fedora. I bring DVD-Rs
of both to training classes with me to give away, and I will often compare
usability issues between distros during breaks -- multimedia and
suspend/resume support being the most often discussed areas.

I switched away from RHL back around v7.3. I still have a couple of boxes
for experimenting with Mandriva, Linspire, m0n0wall, and others from
distrowatch.org.

Informal poll re: moving from Fedora to ...??

Posted Apr 6, 2006 5:42 UTC (Thu) by loening (guest, #174) [Link]

Well, I've been in graduate school for the last couple of years (Bioengineering), and I've never actually seen a student run anything besides Redhat or Fedora. The campus shell servers here, however, are currently running Ubuntu.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 18:28 UTC (Wed) by charris (guest, #13263) [Link]

Guess I'm one of those unique individuals who made the switch to Fedora. And Fedora keeps getting better and better with the expanding extras repository.

Question authority!
Be different!
Use Fedora!

Chuck

The end of the Fedora ... film at 11

Posted Apr 5, 2006 18:51 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] (3 responses)

I keep hearing about how people are moving away from Fedora left and right, but the Fedora downloads have been growing from the mirrors I look after. I am not saying Ubuntu etc arent growing also, but I havent seen this big drop-off of downloads.

What I do see is that people going to the LUGS arent running it anymore.. but I dont see a lot of the people who are downloading/using it at LUG meetings either. The LUGs seem to be the same people with a couple of new faces every now and then but not a large growth in their numbers.

Note: While I worked at Red Hat, I do not have a staked interest if no-one else in the world used Fedora than me.

The end of the Fedora ... film at 11

Posted Apr 5, 2006 19:08 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

This anectdote displays one flaw, one best demonstrated by just about every hardware and gaming website. If you believe what you read there, you'd think that everyone has a pair of $500 graphics cards in a PC with a $1000 overclocked, watercooled processor in a case filled with midgets at a rave.

Which is clearly ludicrous.

LUGs tend to represent the fanatical extremes just as those review sites do.

So I'll say this: Don't discount the mainstream. That's where the *vast* majority of users are. Where you used to have to go to a LUG to get Linux installed successfully, now it rarely takes more than a couple of mouse clicks. You don't need to be a fanatic now, as it by and large JustWorks(tm).

And that's all most people care about.

The end of the Fedora ... film at 11

Posted Apr 5, 2006 19:36 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

pizza: I think I was subtly agreeing with you. I took what you stated as givens (LUGs being populated by the most 'devoted' Linux users)

The end of the Fedora ... film at 11

Posted Apr 6, 2006 7:51 UTC (Thu) by philips (guest, #937) [Link]

I did not want to sound like "End of Fedora".

I was talking about people who still remember what RHL was and what Fedora was. (Like I do)

Every *new* user Fedora project gets has no knowledge what RHL was and what Fedora was. All they know is FC aka "Fedora Core".

Try to read the letter from the POV of new user: it make no sence.
Try to read the letter from the POV of ol' timer: it sounds like late excuse.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 16:27 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (2 responses)

I've had some debates with several people who work on Fedora (both inside and outside Red Hat), and all of them were assuming that the Foundation represented "point five" in the article above, that it represented Red Hat giving up control of Fedora, at least partially. I pointed out that Red Hat could not do that, that Red Hat needs Fedora to be what it is, which is a proving ground for software and technology that will go into future RHEL releases.

My only objection to the handling of Fedora has been the communication about it. For some reason, the Fedora folks have trouble just saying, straight out, what Fedora is and always has been: a Red Hat-controlled project to produce a high-quality, cutting-edge free (both libre and gratis) distribution. They don't want to beat drums about the high quality because of fear of damage to RHEL sales; they don't want to talk about Red Hat control because they are afraid that the rest of the free software community will object.

But there is nothing to be ashamed of. People who do this work full-time are in a better position to make good decisions than those of us who have to divide our attention more. The cutting-edge nature of Fedora makes it a suboptimal choice for deployments that need more stability. Just state, proudly, in the future that Fedora is a Red Hat project.

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 5, 2006 19:20 UTC (Wed) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link]

Seconded.

Just state, proudly, in the future that Fedora is a Red Hat project.

I think they just did. ;-)

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 6, 2006 19:27 UTC (Thu) by eric_boutilier (guest, #35765) [Link]

Joe Buck wrote:

... Red Hat needs Fedora to be what it is, which is a proving ground for software and technology that will go into future RHEL releases...

Maybe Red Hat should take a page from the OpenSolaris Charter. I.e., see:
- Red Hat revises Fedora governance


not a huge deal

Posted Apr 5, 2006 16:56 UTC (Wed) by b7j0c (guest, #27559) [Link]

red hat has maintained a de facto leadership presence in any case, they might as well formalize it, and to be certain, there are things a truly independent community might like to do with fedora that would clash with red hat's goals (like for example, consider rpm alternatives etc). its still a decent deal for users - red hat has a huge vested interest in making sure the product is high quality.

that said, i don't think this will change the course of the distro market. ubuntu has incredible momentum, and has itself become an LSB++ for distro vendors.

Bandwidth Costs

Posted Apr 5, 2006 18:43 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link] (4 responses)

I worked at Red Hat for several years and so my comments can be dismissed as more propaganda.. but I can say that the bandwidth costs are accurate. When I was running the FTP mirrors in 2000->2001, the costs were over 500,000 a year for our mirror sites. The amount of bandwidth has gone up and the costs are no longer being 'given' away prices.

Bandwidth was the largest cost of the mirror servers. The 6 servers and their Netapp backend was a pittance in how much it cost for bandwidth.. and we were given deep discounts during the dotcom hype to get Red Hat's name on XYZ's colo name. Bandwidth is the hidden cost of the Internet commons.

The reason I am commenting on this, is that I have had multiple conversations where people do the math that if they put together 100 home DSL's they would supposedly have the same bandwidth as some colo and not pay as much as the business says it puts into costs. Most people dont realize that most home users get loss-leader pricing that is supplemented by higher costs to businesses... Universities also get a discount but that has been going away in some spots. [At least a couple US midwest university IT people have told me that they are looking at charging bandwidth costs per dorm room to cover the rising costs they are getting.]

Bandwidth Costs

Posted Apr 6, 2006 0:39 UTC (Thu) by beoba (guest, #16942) [Link] (1 responses)

Bittorrent.

Bandwidth Costs

Posted Apr 6, 2006 15:11 UTC (Thu) by pjones (subscriber, #31722) [Link]

Fedora is released on bittorrent at the same time it's released on ftp. Details are at http://torrent.fedoraproject.net/ . One minor difference between the torrent and ftp is that many people involved in the release seed the torrent ahead of time, so there is a reasonable cloud when we announce it.

Since the release on the 20th, the the various FC5 torrents have had roughly 55000 downloads, totalling nearly 165 terrabytes of data transferred.

Believe me, we know about bittorrent.

Bandwidth Costs

Posted Apr 6, 2006 1:49 UTC (Thu) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link] (1 responses)

Internet bandwidth (properly measured) is not sold at a loss to home users. A typical home user with a 1 Mbit/sec connection consumes only a small fraction of that on average, even during peak hours. A typical ISP makes a pretty healthy margin on bandwidth when measured in terms of net cost per GB transferred, a margin that increases with economies of scale.

Bandwidth Costs

Posted Apr 6, 2006 23:54 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

It is sold at a loss if the total bandwidth was used for the entire month. It is the fact that most people do not that makes it profitable. Areas where more people max out the bandwidth there are losses. At the 200 kbit/s range the local ISPs I have consulted with see a loss with P2P and online movies. [The ISPs arent going to see 1mbit/s or 8mbit/s for a while since we are in the rural badlands of Qwest.]

The end of the Fedora Foundation

Posted Apr 6, 2006 2:10 UTC (Thu) by finster (guest, #32338) [Link]

Personally, I last fedora install I did was FC2 which is still humming along fine on a few machines. Would have used FC3 but did not have a reason to. Then I saw that dagwieers did not have rpms for FC4. There appears to be or has been an issue between various repositories. By then I was not happy with yum and its difficulties in bringing down the header files in a reasonable time, so apt was a must. I'm sure apt installs can still be done, but I decided to completely migrate over to debian which I was running at the time on various boxes anyway. Also use kanotix on laptops. But I used RH from 5.0 up to 9, then FC1 and FC2.

I hope RH and FC will continue to grow.

Different Reason

Posted Apr 6, 2006 2:12 UTC (Thu) by wtogami (subscriber, #32325) [Link] (5 responses)

I am Warren Togami, founder of the Fedora Project. I am currently hired by Red Hat to work on both building and enabling the community. For example, my current project is to explore how we can redo our infrastructure so the community can development directly on Fedora Core.

I have a different emphasis of the key reason for the Foundation cancellation.

The key reason for me personally was Max's point THREE, the part about the IRS requirements for funding a non-profit corporation. The community simply cannot donate at a fast enough pace to fund the huge and still growing organization that Fedora has become. By IRS rules, the community must fund through many small donations a minimum of 33% of funds. Funding the bandwidth alone of Fedora downloads, it would be too heavy a strain on public donations. And bandwidth is only a tiny fraction of the expenses that Red Hat pays to further the cause of Fedora.

Just some of the things that Red Hat spends a ton of money to create or enhance:
- gcc
- glibc
- SELinux
- udev
- Xen
- GNOME
- Many other parts of the kernel
- X.org
- Fedora Directory Server (bought for millions, open sourced, development continues)
- NetworkManager
- Dogtail
- Open Source Java (gcj and Classpath)
- Internationalization (Input Methods, Translation, Localization, etc.)

Red Hat spends literally millions per year on Fedora development and infrastructure, I don't have any idea how much exactly. It takes many years to build a non-profit organization that is capable of generating multi-million dollar income from community donations. For this reason it was simply infeasible to run Fedora as a non-profit Foundation, as doing so would severely hinder the amount of input we could put into all aspects of the project.

Fortunately, Red Hat *is* interested in funding this growth because of the clear reasons of mutual benefit between the company and community. The community gets a great deal of progress out of Red Hat engineering for many aspects of Linux distributions and related software. Both upstream projects and the greater FOSS ecosystem benefits from this. Fedora itself benefits from other FOSS ecosystem participants. Then Red Hat occasionally uses pieces of Fedora to productize and support for customers, generating revenue, which completes the cycle enabling investment into FOSS development.

We didn't understand this as goal back when we were initially building Fedora, but it is now clear from what Fedora has become. The Primary Goal of Fedora is "Rapid Progress of Free & Open Source Software".

In the ensuing months, Red Hat will prove its genuine intentions to grow a community based the values of FOSS, with a leadership model of meritocracy. The Fedora Project will show through actions that it not only defends the values of Free and Open Source Software, but emphasizes the need for Rapid Progress of the features and functionality necessary for FOSS to better compete against proprietary software.

Today Fedora has contributors totalling ~300 in the projects spanning Extras, Ambassadors, Documentation, Sysadmins and Legacy. If you count the number of translator accounts, that number is actually above 3,000. Fedora Updates pushes 10-20 packages a week, while nearly a dozen packages are added to Extras on a weekly basis. This is substantial growth compared to a year ago, and this growth continues.

I think Red Hat hasn't been trying hard enough to tell the community about this progress, partly because it wasn't going well at first. But now clear changes are happening across the board, and this is only the beginning. I realize the community has plenty to be skeptical about Fedora, but that is OK, because we will simply do it and prove it.

Warren Togami
wtogami@redhat.com

Different Reason

Posted Apr 6, 2006 7:48 UTC (Thu) by dberkholz (guest, #23346) [Link] (4 responses)

A (c)6 isn't subject to that restriction, however...

Different Reason

Posted Apr 6, 2006 9:48 UTC (Thu) by bkoz (guest, #4027) [Link] (2 responses)

I was surprised to re-read the Fedora announcement and see point five prioritized as well. In defense of LWN, it was prioritized in the announcement itself ("the real heart of the matter", etc.).

To me, it was the funding issue, period. It was illuminating to see just the bandwidth costs spelled out. Apparently this is a way to see some of the bandwidth usage (but not all):

http://torrent.linux.duke.edu:6969/

This brings up the real issue, to me at least. Do hackers really want to mess with funding? Does this mean that Fedora/Red Hat hackers dress up in black ties and attend swanky events in big shiny buildings to support "donations" in the form of inflated ticket prices? That we start making brownies and selling them outside of LUG meetings? That we start hob-nobbing with big telcos and try to get them to donate funding? That before every Fedora release there is a pledge-a-thon for bandwidth?
Do we want to start tracking how many hours spent per week dealing with FC builds (as opposed to RHEL builds)? Do we want to have to expense attending LSB meetings and tracking lsb-futures as a Fedora expense? Etc. etc.

I have full confidence that the Red Hat financial people scoped out all the angles. These dudes know there stuff, in my experience...

This isn't to say that the tension between Red Hat, the patron of Fedora, and rest of the community doesn't exist. It does. However, the governance issue is a problem that can be solved, or one that can be made better, at the very least. (And one that hopefully the new Fedora Board will make a first priority.)

I don't really see the funding-related issues as solvable, in a sustained way.

It is interesting to note that other "community" distros are also funded by a generous benefactor, and do not rely on the financial support of the community. The community distros that don't have a patron, not surprisingly, have financial issues (ie OpenBSD).

Different Reason

Posted Apr 6, 2006 11:35 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Furthermore, it's not as though someone who's convinced that RH has gone Evil can't fork Fedora; that fundamental freedom remains, and always will (although I hope it never needs to be exercised).

In practice though RH isn't going to go Evil because if it did it'd lose all its developers; it's not as though nobody else is looking to hire, say, a libstdc++ developer, to pick an example not at random. Even if RH were run by short-termist ultracorporate idiots (which it isn't), it would still have the horrible cautionary example of what happened to Caldera, which haemorrhaged its developers in torrents once it turned Evil.

So I think we're safe regardless.

pls ignore grammatical mistakes

Posted Apr 7, 2006 10:02 UTC (Fri) by bkoz (guest, #4027) [Link]

Oh, how I wish I had spell checked this, or posted not jet-lagged.

Is there anyway to edit LWN postings after the fact?

Damn the effectiveness of google searches!

Different Reason

Posted Apr 7, 2006 3:22 UTC (Fri) by wtogami (subscriber, #32325) [Link]

As Max stated, 501(c)6 was too infeasible because of things like:

- This doesn't really gain us anything that Red Hat the company cannot do.
- It would incur significantly more costs in accounting and legal.
- People cannot contribute money and have a tax deduction.

If I understand the situation correctly, 501(c)6 is usually benefitial as a consortium between companies. Fedora Project is not a community of companies, but a community of people, so this makes it very unattractive given the other costs and lack of benefits.

What happened to the Ubuntu Foundation?

Posted Apr 6, 2006 5:21 UTC (Thu) by wtogami (subscriber, #32325) [Link] (2 responses)

Out of curiosity I tried searching around for any more recent infromation about the Ubuntu Foundation. It seems that the two links to Canonical and Ubuntu's wikis where there previously was information are now gone:
http://www.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFoundation
http://www.canonical.com/UbuntuFoundation

All other hits are news articles repeating the initial press release of the Ubuntu Foundation, but no central page with updated information about what has been going on with the Ubuntu Foundation. Anybody have any idea what happened to the Ubuntu Foundation?

I wonder if they ran into similar difficulties as us in realizing the pros and cons of a non-profit organization. Just curious ...

Warren Togami
wtogami@redhat.com

What happened to the Ubuntu Foundation?

Posted Apr 6, 2006 11:40 UTC (Thu) by lacostej (guest, #2760) [Link]

http://www.ubuntu.com/news/UbuntuFoundation ?

What happened to the Ubuntu Foundation?

Posted Apr 6, 2006 15:16 UTC (Thu) by cjwatson (subscriber, #7322) [Link]

The communication since the original announcement hasn't been perfect, but the purpose of the Ubuntu Foundation is more like a trust than the active purpose that the Fedora Foundation had. That is, in case Canonical's commercial activities don't turn out to be sustainable, then the Foundation and its endowment are there to guarantee that Ubuntu can at least meet its stated commitments, such as five-year support of Ubuntu 6.06 on servers, and continue to produce new releases; it would also provide a legal framework for the project and its community. Unless and until that happens (and, at present, we hope it remains an unlikely prospect), there isn't much point eating into rainy-day funds, so primary funding of Ubuntu development will still be from Canonical, and the Foundation will remain as a trust fund.

Either way, project governance remains with the Ubuntu Community Council and Technical Board, each of which at present have one non-Canonical-employed member, but that isn't fixed.

Colin Watson
Ubuntu developer and Community Council member


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