LWN: Comments on "The Overture open-mapping project"

What is this, really?

mathstuf — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 16:32:14 +0000

Yes, but not how they're connected to each other, the materials down there, maintenance status, etc. that might want to be tracked by those using the layer day-to-day.

What is this, really?

excors — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 15:33:59 +0000

In the UK, I believe that specific information is the opposite of confidential - water companies are legally required to make maps of public sewers and water mains available for free if you visit their office in person. Many of them also offer maps online, usually for a fee (maybe £50 for a small area; cheap enough that it's worth paying instead of going in person). I think they're often examined when buying a property, so probably a million times a year. And I guess the main reason they're not made available as open data is simply that it would take significant effort and would cut off a source of revenue for the water companies, so there's no benefit for them to do so.

The water regulator has promoted open data and says "We found widespread public support for water companies opening their data, but that water companies have made little progress in opening datasets" (https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/regulated-companies/open-data-in...), so maybe there will be some change but probably not soon, and I see no indication that pipeline maps are a priority (the current progress seems to be primarily about storm overflows, so you can tell which rivers and beaches contain more sewage than normal).

On the other hand there is an in-progress National Underground Asset Register which is "building a digital map of underground pipes and cables", mainly to help people avoid digging into them. It sounds much more comprehensive than just water pipes, and it's based on an open-licensed data model (https://geospatialcommission.blog.gov.uk/2024/08/13/an-in...), but it's explicitly not open data for national security reasons: "We're dealing here with data that can't be seen by everybody from above ground as it's sensitive data relating to gas, electricity and, more importantly, digital data between key parts of our infrastructure. We are security minded in our approach to stop bad actors from accessing this data." (https://www.government-transformation.com/innovation/nuar...)

What is this, really?

LtWorf — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 14:40:30 +0000

Manholes are commonly labelled to say what's down there.

What is this, really?

mathstuf — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 10:33:41 +0000

In what I've seen (not necessarily through Overture), the worry seems to be about providing information to Nefarious Actors™. The obvious instance is terrorism-related (domestic or otherwise) fears, but I suspect lawyers might also be considered such if there are situations like Flint, MI out in the open (rather than behind a FOIA request which might give some notice as to what is being looked for). I'm in America if that wasn't apparent; such institutional fears might be different elsewhere.

What is this, really?

DemiMarie — Tue, 05 Nov 2024 06:07:00 +0000

Why shouldn't location about sewer and water line locations be public?

What license are those data available under?

mirabilos — Sat, 02 Nov 2024 05:26:42 +0000

Likely illegal, given they use ML/LLM…

What is this, really?

corbet — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 14:29:43 +0000

If I understand it at all, they will not be in the business of selling proprietary data. Part of their reason for existence is certainly to make life easier for companies that do traffic in such data, but the base layers they create will be freely licensed.

What is this, really?

mathstuf — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 14:18:02 +0000

It looks like their interest is in selling layers on top of OSM. Managing things like infrastructure maps for local government entities and the like that don't really make sense to be public (e.g., where are the sewer/water lines, what are they made of, installation dates, inspection schedule, etc.).

City vs rural data

mathstuf — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 14:16:14 +0000

A lot of Google "in the wilderness" is just swaths of green: "Thank you, I know I am among the trees." But OSM is also *able* to be improved by dedicated hikers, so incremental improvement gets us to where we're at today.

What is this, really?

LtWorf — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 11:17:26 +0000

Is this a proprietary project intended to sell extra data over what OSM has?

Did I misunderstand?

I don't get it.

City vs rural data

LtWorf — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 11:15:10 +0000

Try hiking on Etna.

On OSM you get the trails, on google maps the whole Etna is a uniform green field.

City vs rural data

njh — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 10:56:16 +0000

That chimes with the observation in the article that the network of ways is easier to keep up-to-date than the volatile point-of-interest layers.

What license are those data available under?

ringerc — Fri, 01 Nov 2024 04:58:25 +0000

Does that mean there is not and will not be some copyright assignment, CLA or perpetual transferrable copyright grant?

Because it can have whatever license for now, but with assignments that can be changed going forwards. Not retroactively at least.

City vs rural data

JoeBuck — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 22:29:15 +0000

I should say that while the trail maps are accurate, facilities like rest rooms aren't marked reliably, often if it's marked on the map it just means there was an outhouse at that spot at one time.

Still, the map is useful.

What license are those data available under?

corbet — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:29:29 +0000

Sorry, I meant to include the license info from their FAQ:

Generally, Overture data is licensed under the Community Database License Agreement – Permissive v2 (CDLA) unless derived from a source that requires publishing under a different license, such as data derived from OpenStreetMap, that constitutes a “Derivative Database” (as defined under ODbL v1.0), which will be licensed under ODbL v1.0.

City vs rural data

atnot — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 21:14:44 +0000

Yes, it very much depends. For example in the german/austrian alps, some regional tourist boards seem to have official OSM accounts and regularly update the map with route closures, path difficulties and other information. But other things like benches are very poorly mapped. It all depends on who's there and what data they care about which varies a lot.

City vs rural data

JoeBuck — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:24:58 +0000

Maps of trails in the mountains surrounding the SF Bay Area are very good in OSM, thanks to lots of hikers contributing.

City vs rural data

SLi — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 20:21:39 +0000

> It turns out that the OpenStreetMap data is more complete in the cities, where the contributors live, while the Microsoft database is more compete in rural areas.

Yes, this is a funny aspect of OSM that I'd wish more people were aware of, just because it would drive better choices in what to use and when. It's my experiment that OSM generally beats commercial offerings in at least western cities, whereas in rural areas it's lacking.

In fact, I seem to remember reading long ago that for funny reasons (lots of US soldiers with too much time) Baghdad is probably the best mapped place on earth.

What license are those data available under?

shironeko — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:21:54 +0000

yeah, I was also wondering if there's a CLA for contributions.

What license are those data available under?

ceplm — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:14:28 +0000

Is it something better than embrace-extend-extinguish by the commercial owners of the project?