LWN: Comments on "Installing Debian on modern hardware"

Installing Debian on modern hardware

mcortese — Sat, 27 Feb 2021 21:28:33 +0000

They already are. Labeling something "unofficial" doesn't cancel the fact that Debian made it, intended to make it, and is set to make it in the future.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

pizza — Thu, 25 Feb 2021 11:13:04 +0000

> IMHO users who land on the download page should be presented with the two options with equal emphasis: official, 100% free installer, and unofficial, firmware-encumbered installer. Let the users decide if they feel purist or pragmatist.

Wouldn't that make both of those options "official" ?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

mcortese — Thu, 25 Feb 2021 08:52:50 +0000

I hardly understand most of the comments here, arguing whether Debian should or should not ship proprietary firmware. Debian has already taken such decision: it does package proprietary firmware, though in a separate section of the repository, and it does ship it with the installer, though under a scaring "unofficial" label.

Indeed, the topic is whether Debian should just make all this easily discoverable for the public, or keep it half-hidden in a dark corner of its website.

IMHO users who land on the download page should be presented with the two options with equal emphasis: official, 100% free installer, and unofficial, firmware-encumbered installer. Let the users decide if they feel purist or pragmatist.

I strongly believe in freedom of choice, once the users have received complete and unbiased information to make such choice.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

timo_s — Thu, 04 Feb 2021 20:24:10 +0000

Not really. I stopped building my own kernel packages for those two machines in question after Debian Stretch was released – meaning at that point Debian's kernel supported my hardware well enough so that I didn't need those custom packages anymore. In addition, the configuration was somewhat tailored to the specific hardware in order to keep the build time down.

What would probably be more useful than publish those outdated packages, are the scripts that I used to check for new releases and build/package them. But then again, if I were to publish them, I'd like to clean them up a bit first. There are a couple of things that I'd probably do differently nowadays. Just a brief example: Back then my scripts were still working with the release tarballs. Today, I'd probably just use git instead of downloading and extracting the whole source tree again for every release.

Binary firmware loaded into from ROM or flash is ok

simlo — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 20:34:09 +0000

But if it has to be loaded through the OS, it is bad?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

bjartur — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 14:16:30 +0000

Sounds like you’ve already done a third of the necessary work. Can you publish your Linux kernel packages?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

pizza — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 02:03:14 +0000

If you don't have an ethernet adapter, a cable, and something to plug said cable into, then yes, that qualifies as a pretty big problem.

And why would you have an ethernet adapter lying around? After all, you haven't needed one for the last five years or so.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

immibis — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 01:35:55 +0000

The main issue I see there is the distribution terms for the firmware.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

immibis — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 01:34:36 +0000

are you... suggesting that's a *problem* at all?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

immibis — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 01:32:17 +0000

Other way around. "CPU firmware" (i.e. drivers) is just software. Non-CPU firmware is something that the vendor would've just put in ROM, but they wanted to leave open the possibility of updates. And we seem to all have agreed that it's okay to have proprietary firmware in ROM - so surely "not ROM because updates" should be a very similar category?

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Cyberax — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 10:54:23 +0000

Even temporary connections might not be feasible. My GF's house has a WiFi mesh system, with the main router in a hard-to-access location in the basement.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

timo_s — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:48:11 +0000

I think this discussion falls short esp. with regards to the kernel or drivers. So far, non-free firmware wasn't a major issue for me whenever I wanted to install and run Debian on a machine (well, maybe because most of my Debian systems are wired). But what occasionally has caused issues for me was the, at times, outdated kernel.

Please don't get me wrong. I like the stability of Debian and I'm not asking for newer kernels to be shipped with Debian per se. I just wish Debian had an easier way of installing a newer kernel on systems that require newer drivers in a fashion that also provides timely security updates. Installing newer kernels from testing or backports doesn't guarantee you will receive security fixes quickly. In Ubuntu or openSUSE Leap, for instance, there are repositories that offer regular mainline kernel builds. So, if you need a newer kernel, you can opt in to use these and, more or less, follow the upstream update schedule. The packages from those repositories receive less testing, obviously, but they usually work fine.

I had two systems a few years back, which required newer kernels to run properly. Because I wanted security updates in a timely fashion, I ended up compiling the latest longterm kernels from kernel.org myself. It worked fine, especially after I automated the process of checking for a new release on kernel.org, downloading the sources, compiling and packaging it. But it's still an effort that could easily be done by some build bot as well. And it would make it whole lot easier for a wider audience to install Debian on modern hardware. I wish Debian had such a mainline kernel repository, even if it came with a disclaimer that those kernels don't receive much testing.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

farnz — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:23:54 +0000

Sure, but even setting up a temporary wired connection would be a pain in the neck at my in-law's house. I'd be operating the computer in a cold garage (because that's where the router with wired ports is) rather than being in a warm office with WiFi. Or, if I want to be in the warm office, I need to get out the SDS+ drill, cut holes in the walls, and route cables.

In other words, you're talking a lot of hassle for a potential user to use wired connectivity.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

marcH — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 05:16:18 +0000

> Voices like the FSF/RMS are much needed for exactly this reason.

Voices, sure. "Radical" control over popular and important software projects on the other hand...

Installing Debian on modern hardware

marcH — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 05:13:20 +0000

My question was about "interface names", sorry I should have been clearer.

On your last message: I understand wifi is more convenient that wired, but I assume you can easily download and install the wifi firmware after the installation has been performed over a _temporary_ wired connection. I mean if that's not against your religion, which is the case of the person who initiated this whole discussion.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

neilbrown — Fri, 29 Jan 2021 01:16:53 +0000

> Laptops frequently don't come with Ethernet ports these days - just blob-dependent wifi.

Or USB ports? Mine came with a USB-Ethernet dongle but they are that expensive to buy separately.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

davidgerard — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 09:58:58 +0000

> So if you decide you value freedom over convenience you can still have a happily working setup, it just may need an ethernet cable.

Laptops frequently don't come with Ethernet ports these days - just blob-dependent wifi.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

farnz — Wed, 27 Jan 2021 12:15:46 +0000

WiFi tends to be something that everyone has working nowadays. In contrast, for wired Ethernet, I have to find a cable route from my home router to my work desk, run the cable, connect it to the router and the PC (noting that I may need to buy a switch, too, if I don't have enough wired ports, and then find power for that), and then put the cable route back into a nice state for my family to cope with (no trip hazards for the children, no messy holes to annoy the adults).

It's a considerable amount of complication compared to using the WiFi that already works for everything else - compare that to "type in the password and go", as is all I need on Windows 10 or MacOS 11.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

marcH — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 16:58:28 +0000

> but that then expects some classes of users to understand how to sort out Ethernet and cabling and interface names.

Why is that more complicated than for wifi?

Should be simpler, authentication rarely ever required...

Installing Debian on modern hardware

pabs — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 02:41:19 +0000

You were wise to buy Dell instead of Lenovo, who would have blocked you from swapping out the WiFi chip unless you hacked the boot firmware.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

mathstuf — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 21:45:21 +0000

Nevermind that what chip your specific device gets might depend on which parts line it was on and what time of day can change that too. IIRC, XPS 13 Developer Editions had a chance of some crap chip or Intel. Needless to say, I bought my own Intel chipset for $20 to avoid problems with the crap chip.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

NYKevin — Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:09:08 +0000

It is actually worse than that. Freedom at the expense of convenience comes at the expense of freedom.

At the moment, by far the most reliable, efficient, and straightforward way to get a Debian box up and running with as little friction as possible, is to click the "new compute instance" button in GCP or AWS. Which technically does give you a "free" OS, but the entire virtualization stack below it is closed. Both of the companies involved produce scads of proprietary software as part and parcel of their respective business models, and your compute fees go to supporting those business models.

(Disclaimer: I work for Google, and this is obviously just my opinion.)

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Wol — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 19:13:37 +0000

You missed where people had a physical problem with the PS3, sent it in for repair, and it came back totally useless because Sony upgraded the firmware at the same time.

Cheers,
Wol

Installing Debian on modern hardware

MatejLach — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:48:00 +0000

The FSF position, as far as I know, is that upgradeable firmware is fine as long as it is not exclusively the OEM who can do it. So if both the OEM and the user can upgrade the firmware then that's fine as long as the OEM upgrades are not of the silent over the air variety.

When the choice is between fixed firmware or OEM-only upgradeable firmware, then the FSF's position becomes that fixed is better.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

zlynx — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:12:42 +0000

Yep. I have a Dell XPS 13 from I dunno, 2012? The first Ubuntu Developer version. It has no Ethernet port.

These days I almost think the adapters are better. If you want to you can get a 10 Gbps adapter. I doubt you'll find a laptop with a built-in 10G Ethernet.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

pizza — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:11:25 +0000

There is a big difference between "Sony forced you into choosing between removing OtherOS support or playing newer games/movies" and providing the end-user with the technical means to update/replace the system software/firmware.

Sure, you can't have the former without the latter, but without the latter Free Software won't be possible either.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

amacater — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 18:10:11 +0000

This topic has been discussed mightily - not least because there are always discussions as to the best way to write a Debian image to a USB stick.

Use the offiicial free image with no firmware - you may need to add the firmware part way through the installation. [But for a container/VM - you may not need any firmware since it will be handled by the underlying OS]

Write the non-free unoffiical image to a USB stick and it should "just work" finding the appropriate files and installing them.
Hence the ongoing discussion in debian-devel@lists.debian.org

Installing Debian on modern hardware

floppus — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 17:55:55 +0000

A second USB stick is already a huge nuisance. One possibility would be for the installer image to include a large empty VFAT partition, so that after writing the image to your USB stick or SD card, you could simply mount that partition and copy the necessary files onto it.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

MatejLach — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 15:50:37 +0000

> But the wording in the guide must be chosen carefully - to not insult the user, and not make Debian look like a fringe fanatic cult (we already have the FSF for that).

In politics it is generally known that if you want some position represented, that position will get watered down many times over by various opposing groups, lobbyists etc. to the point where you have to start with a somewhat 'radical' version of your true position so that by the time the watering down is done it still at least somewhat represents your *true* position, which was in fact much more moderate.

If you start negotiations with the moderate position, you'd get something that does not represent it at all after the watering down process.

Voices like the FSF/RMS are much needed for exactly this reason.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

MatejLach — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 15:41:05 +0000

Because presumably you looked at what the device is doing at some level and purchased it because you are happy with its current "fixed" function if you will. But the moment the OEM can upgrade the firmware, the hardware can become many things that you don't want it to be, see PS3 "Other OS" functionality removal for a good example.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

alex31 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 08:32:05 +0000

| Why struggle with Debian on your hardware when Ubuntu, CentOS, (or
| worse) Windows running a Linux VM under WSL2 just works out of the
| box?

I consider Debian as a building block, as Gnu utilities or Linux kernel. For me, the fact that Debian is not usable for most end users is not a problem as long as it stays a valuable building block for the ones that develops user-friendly distributions.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

Wol — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 21:27:34 +0000

We're planning to replace my wife's "ancient" laptop (it came with Windows 8). It has no ethernet port, so I dunno about just "modern" stuff, a lot of older stuff needs an adapter as well ...

Cheers,
Wol

Slow news day

nix — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:12:18 +0000

... the 20th January 2021 was a slow news day?

This is the first evidence I've had that there are actual aliens (as in, people living on other planets) or possibly people living in parallel universes contributing to LWN :P

Installing Debian on modern hardware

amacater — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:00:37 +0000

Debian CD / DVD size images can be written direct to USB stick and will boot from that. A second USB stick with firmware on can be used to add firmware - or you can write the unofficial image which has the non-free firmware files included onto a USB stick (for i386 and amd64).(and there are also larger 16G / Blu-Ray size images

For other architectures, the installer may be written to SD card especially for arm variants.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

nix — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 18:54:53 +0000

... why are you using the driver shim and dkms at all? The amdgpu driver is in-tree!

Installing Debian on modern hardware

iabervon — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 18:49:42 +0000

Out of curiosity, do people have modern laptops that have optical media drives? If the normal thing now is to write the image you download to flash via either USB or SD, it might make sense to use the fact that the medium supports random access to provide a way to set up your boot image with multiple files you download. If you're going to install non-free packages after you boot, there's no reason not to download them before you boot, and it would be nice not to have to download any non-free software beyond what you've decided you want.

For that matter, if I read the installation manual strictly, I can't actually install Debian on any modern computers I personally have, since they only boot from USB and are presently running Gentoo (or, in the case of my work computer, macOS).

Installing Debian on modern hardware

ayers — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:29:52 +0000

> The thing is, most folks don't deploy servers (or whatever) for the heck of it; equipment gets deployed because it needs to accomplish specific tasks, and thus needs to be fit for purpose. Why struggle with Debian on your hardware when Ubuntu, CentOS, (or worse) Windows running a Linux VM under WSL2 just works out of the box?

Exactly... so most folks should go ahead and deploy Ubuntu or whatever. They have that option. I took that option as a temporary workaround. But please don't mess with my option of deploying a widely used distribution that actually respects my freedom by default. (and not hidden in some hardly tested install option).

Installing Debian on modern hardware

pizza — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 17:14:01 +0000

> I am aware that I'm missing CPU microcode and network drivers or whatever, that may make me miss out on some features or make my hardware slower, less efficient or, in the worst case, possibly even unreliable.

That proprietary firmware (which you are already running, only it's the "okay" copy embedded into the device instead of the "evil" one that the host CPU is being asked to transfer) can have significant security implications. So the worst case is that you suffer a data breach, get sued or fined, losing a pile of money, your business, and in extreme cases, possibly your liberty.

> I can relate to the sentiment, that there has to be a significant convenience hurdle to entice users to complain to hardware manufactures for not supporting free software distributions. But I also believe there must be a better way than to put such a high burden on prospective users.

The thing is, most folks don't deploy servers (or whatever) for the heck of it; equipment gets deployed because it needs to accomplish specific tasks, and thus needs to be fit for purpose. Why struggle with Debian on your hardware when Ubuntu, CentOS, (or worse) Windows running a Linux VM under WSL2 just works out of the box?

(FWIW, the only proprietary userspace stuff on my servers are the RAID administration tools. But while the rest of it is all Free Software, Linux and everything else is running on top of/alongside highly proprietary system & peripheral firmware)

Installing Debian on modern hardware

ema — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 16:14:00 +0000

There's no trade-off between "convenience" and "freedom" here. In a trade-off between A and B, if A decreases B increases. We don't gain any more freedom by removing firmware from netinst images and thus breaking the installer, we just break it.

Installing Debian on modern hardware

ayers — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 15:46:44 +0000

I've been using Debian for decades, not just for myself but also install it mostly on servers for my customers. The wifi isn't that much of an issue on the server side but the same issues can arise with RAID controllers on servers that customers have already bought. In one case I actually went so far as to install Ubuntu Server and libvirt KVM to run Debian in a VM (that has since been remedied by replacing the hardware).

I feel strongly about working with free software. I do very much respect the fact that I can install Debian via the default installation ang be reasonably certain, that there is no non-free software on my system. I am aware that I'm missing CPU microcode and network drivers or whatever, that may make me miss out on some features or make my hardware slower, less efficient or, in the worst case, possibly even unreliable.

I can relate to the sentiment, that there has to be a significant convenience hurdle to entice users to complain to hardware manufactures for not supporting free software distributions. But I also believe there must be a better way than to put such a high burden on prospective users.

I had always imagined that these non-free components be stowed away in a separate part of the install media and that the user might have to go through some process of identifying the offending hardware component and be obliged to register it at some portal to nag the vendor and manufacturer but also be able to actually install the non-free component, albeit marking the system as tainted. Possibly by providing both a command line tool and a desktop app to repeat the nag once a year or so...

But yeah... that's not really something I would want to spend my time setting up and I'd definitely not be willing to go through the persuasion needed to actually get that into Debian, let alone deal with the push back that's bound to result from such a mechanism.
There needs to be a better way to solve the issue of non-free firmware, which burdens the vendors and manufactures instead of the users.