LWN: Comments on "Android 11 released"

Android 11 released

Lennie — Thu, 24 Sep 2020 10:58:35 +0000

This seems to be the goal:

According to Dave Burke, Android's head of engineering, Google is just getting started with Mainline modules: "With Mainline we've started with the less exciting modules at the beginning to prove that all of that infrastructure before you go for the big ones like this." "Like this" was a reference to an in-development Linux kernel module we were asking about. Imagine updating Android's Linux kernel through the Play Store! Someday it might happen, so expect a great deal of mainline talk in the future.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/09/android-11-the-ar...

Android 11 released

niner — Wed, 16 Sep 2020 11:30:44 +0000

The Fairphone 3 not only gets updated to major Android releases (I just updated to Android 10 a couple of days ago) but even upgrades of the hardware like the new camera module. The phone is officially supported for at least 5 years, including spare parts.

Android 11 released

ledow — Tue, 15 Sep 2020 07:53:22 +0000

That first link seems to be very respectful towards "get it into the kernel by preference" and properly handling EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL by upstream requirements.

Android 11 released

ledow — Tue, 15 Sep 2020 07:49:13 +0000

I've had any number of Apple devices stop updating.

iOS 7 for some. iOS 9 for others. They are literally stuck there, permanently, and will never receive another update.

Not to mention when they started pushing out 64-bit apps and removing 32-bit ones so even if the device works, you can't necessarily get even big-name apps going.

Android is far from alone in this.

Android 11 released

mathstuf — Mon, 14 Sep 2020 15:38:40 +0000

Aren't (US) 2-year contracts going out of style (started with T-Mobile IIRC) ? Or are they still a significant portion of mobile subscribers?

Android 11 released

anselm — Mon, 14 Sep 2020 09:42:08 +0000

I understand the planned obsolescence, I just don't think the consumers should be allowing them to get away with it.

On the whole, “the consumers” are probably happy because every two years they get a brand-new state-of-the-art mobile phone when their contract is renewed. For many people, the urge to own the newest and greatest – especially if their friends and colleagues already own the newest and greatest – will trump the nagging feeling that the old and clunky stuff (that used to be the newest and greatest not all that long ago, but let's not dwell on that) might not really need to be replaced just yet.

Android 11 released

LightDot — Mon, 14 Sep 2020 00:58:33 +0000

Five years? None that I know of.

It seems that Samsung is providing updates for the longest period, for their higher class phones, that is. Samsung Galaxy S and Note series get 3 years of monthly updates and another year of quarterly updates. So 4 years altogether. AFAIK, after 4 years, owners might get an update only if something critical creeps up, if at all.

During these 4 years, Samsung used to promise 2 major OS updates. So devices with Android 10 would get Android 11 and 12, but no more. This has recently changed, Samsung is now promising 3 major OS updates, so devices released with Android 10 will get updated to Android 13.

As far as I'm concerned, 4 years is still far from enough. Considering the hardware capabilities and the price of these devices, 4 years of updates seem borderline ludicrous to me.

I understand the planned obsolescence, I just don't think the consumers should be allowing them to get away with it.

Android 11 released

scientes — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 22:26:38 +0000

TBH, the launch was paired with the "open handset alliance" which was 1984 speak for the cabal that protects Google's interests. The was never anything besides vaporware on their "commitment to community" or "open source" (the real term is libre software) or other non-sense. Look at how low quality the built in SIP phone of android is, and how noone uses it, because android is made so it can only be built as one system, which prevents it from being modified and hacked on in a useful way.

Android 11 released

ras — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 22:25:49 +0000

That is the first time I've heard of Code Aurora.

https://www.codeaurora.org/about tells me it's a Linux Foundation project serving the "open source projects serving the mobile wireless ecosystem". It looks to be home to some 7,000 git repositories, which at first glance means it fits my definitions of "substantial" and "significant". From https://www.xda-developers.com/qualcomm-snapdragon-845-so..., it appears to be where Qualcomm does code drops for it's chipsets. It smells like a collection of vendors selling Android/Linux or perhaps ARM/Linux pooling their resources.

As for AOSP being slow: I've used Huawei, Samsung, Pixels and Nokia, and I can't say I've noticed a huge difference. The Pixel's camera software Google is/was keeping to themselves did make a noticeable difference in low light, but I don't use the conditions camera in very poor conditions a lot and I suspect most people don't. Given that, the difference in sales between the Samsung A51 and Nokia 7.2 was hard to explain here in Australia as the prices are about the same and the hardware performance is near identical. If I take what you say about speed at face value, that means software wise it's a choice between faster vs working reliably. Then I happened across the price in the USA. The A51 is 25% cheaper than the 7.2 there, or putting it another way the 7.2 was the same price in USD$ as it is in AUD$. _That_ would explain it. Nokia has screwed up their distribution chain somehow.

Android 11 released

scientes — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 22:22:28 +0000

> Google thinks is appropriate for a user to do on its OS,

Why, is that not the entire problem right there.

Android 11 released

juliank — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 15:27:47 +0000

It's quite easy, really. While other manufacturers are using Qualcomm enhanced Android base from Code Aurora, Android One like Pixel run on AOSP base. AOSP is less optimized.

You also hear people constantly complain about how slow and sluggish Pixels are, and that they give up and switch to OnePlus. Then they get tired of crappy camera and go back to Pixel and then they endlessly switch back and forth once they get tired again of bad performance/camera.

Android 11 released

ras — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:21:26 +0000

> https://i0.wp.com/nokiamob.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/05...

Sigh, how did I not find that?

> They seem to be amongst the most laggy and unstable phones on the market.

I own a Nokia 8.1, which cost me around $400. Previous phone was a Pixel, AUD$1200. The Nokia is both faster and more stable, but of course has 2 years on the Pixel. (The Pixel overheated.) Today Android phone hardware now seems to be not very different, regardless of manufacturer. Maybe that's because they are almost all Qualcomm chipsets. Different chipsets are used at different price points, but *shrug* you make your price choice. How stock Android running on running on the same chipsets everyone uses could be more laggy or unstable is mystifying, and isn't my experience.

Still, those sales figures speak for themselves. I do hope some Android One manufacturer survives, because my experience with software manufactures add in an attempt to stamp their brand on Android has been abysmal. Granted I've only dealt with Samsung's and Huawei's efforts, but it's been over a few models now and the bugs have swamped the hardware differences.

Android 11 released

juliank — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 08:00:21 +0000

See

https://i0.wp.com/nokiamob.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/05...

Sales started a massive downward trajectory in Q2 19, they lost one million each quarter and got down to 1.7 in Q1 20.

I don't think Nokia phones are what I'd call stable. They seem to be amongst the most laggy and unstable phones on the market. But at least they have good security support.

Android 11 released

ras — Sun, 13 Sep 2020 05:49:29 +0000

> And Nokia is dying fast, they ship less and less phones.

Are you sure?

https://i0.wp.com/nokiamob.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/11...

While Google chose only to sell phones several times they price I think there pretty safe, and apparently Nokia is making a comeback in the feature phone market.

Perhaps things might change now Google has abandoned their "high end only" strategy, but I hope not. If you want stock android (which translates to wanting a stable android UI as you can hope for, and the least amount of bugs), then Nokia is your only choice outside of Google.

Android 11 released

donbarry — Fri, 11 Sep 2020 19:47:40 +0000

While certainly this is a trend, it's not a rule. The Moto G7 is a delightful and responsive large-screen thin phone with an active LineageOS and MicroG spin that was available earlier this year for only $150. I'm very pleased with it, though as others have noted, Android itself is getting more and more annoying for people like myself who feel an OS should provide flexibility to its own user to do what they want. Getting an encrypted thumb drive to mount was clearly outside what Google thinks is appropriate for a user to do on its OS, requiring some ugly hackery.

Android 11 released

scientes — Fri, 11 Sep 2020 16:55:40 +0000

But this is part of the pornlem that you can only get LineageOS for the expensive phones. I see no need for an expensive phone when it is only going to run a toy OS (Android) that can't even use a SD card properly, and thus I have to use cruddy stock roms, but the OS is such a joke that it doesnt mke much of a difference.

Android 11 released

LtWorf — Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:41:04 +0000

> Flat glas is a feature though, not a bug. A rim around the glas would make it awkward to hold and interact with gestures,

I want a vertical rim, not an horizontal rim. Like, if I put the phone face down (to not damage the camera lens) I want a 1mm of plastic around it so that it's not directly sitting on the glass.

I live on an active volcano which is continuously throwing volcanic ash around, so every surface is covered in overly abrasive dust. But even without that. It'd make sense, so when falling it wouldn't hit directly on the glass but there would be a plastic buffer.

> I'm not sure what glass it uses.

Not a very good one I guess. The deep scratches it has are not due to ash. And again my older samsung phone had none of those issues with the glass.

Google seems full of people with nokias restarting by themselves, so I don't know how you can say that it's my special issue.

Android 11 released

juliank — Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:11:42 +0000

Flat glas is a feature though, not a bug. A rim around the glas would make it awkward to hold and interact with gestures, as you swipe in from outside the screen. Usually the glass is curved too (2.5D edge they call it), which makes it more likely to hit.

I'm sorry your phone broke. I'm not sure what glass it uses. My OnePlus 6 uses Corning Gorilla Glas 5 and despite countless drops (6 mo without screen protector and case, mostly on wood) and scuffs on the aluminium frame and the glasses, no glass breaks yet. It's very confusing.

I can't find anyone else with your other issues, so it seems like you might have gotten a rare bad device.

Android 11 released

LtWorf — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 22:51:36 +0000

I have a nokia 4.2 and the quality isn't great.

The phone reboots randomly. Most often when I try to reply to a phone call.

I broke 2 sd cards in it already. I suspect it is damaging them so I stopped putting them in.

There is no rim around the glass, so if you put it face down it's direct hit on the glass, not on the 1mm plastic rim as my previous samsung s5 mini. Sooo it's the 1st phone where I've ever broken the glass. It's shattered on the corners.

Also the glass is not great, it had some major scratches very soon.

Android 11 released

hadess — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 21:16:18 +0000

That's already 2 years less than my current iPhone 6s which is going to get a major update by the end of the year (so security updates for at least another release cycle).

I guess that's the difference between a vendor that wants you to carry on using the applications they infamously take a 30% cut out off, and a vendor for which each additional year of support is a cost centre.

Android 11 released

josh — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:34:32 +0000

Pixel devices get Android major version updates and security updates for at least 3 years.

Android 11 released

hadess — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:02:38 +0000

Jolla still owe me $100 of my Indiegogo contribution for their tablet, as I wasn't "random picked" (sic) to have that amount reimbursed, so I'm highly unlikely to give them a penny. And Sailfish OS isn't really Android.

Android 11 released

anselm — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:50:31 +0000

Jolla is still issuing major Sailfish OS updates for the Jolla phone which came out in 2013. I replaced mine for day-to-day use with a Sony Xperia XA2 (also running Sailfish OS) but my SO is still using hers and is quite happy with it.

Android 11 released

hadess — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:29:03 +0000

I personally don't use Android because I've never seen devices be updated beyond, maybe, a major update in the first year or so after release. Which one of those 1-3 *good* vendors would provide timely major and security updates, for 5 year-old phones?

My 2015 iPhone 6s is still churning along, after a battery swap a year ago.

Android 11 on Nexus 5

Sesse — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:29:43 +0000

Maybe, but it's just too slow by now. :-)

It's a bit sad, because when it came out, it was just surreal. I clicked on things, and every time, it would react instantly (save for web page loads, of course). Even large apps would come up just like that. I thought “wow, phone technology has finally gotten to where it should be”. And now, it's not there anymore :-) (I've tried iPhones, too, I've never seen them be so snappy.)

Android 11 on Nexus 5

tim_small — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:25:04 +0000

Brian Masney and others have done an impressive job getting a Nexus 5 support in the mainline kernel:

https://masneyb.github.io/nexus-5-upstream/

... maybe the Nexus 5 will get Android 11 before its replacement does?

Android 11 released

Cyberax — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 07:01:28 +0000

You can root Android on most phones by using their official bootloader functionality. If you don't want a root, you can side-load an application and give it administrative rights over the phone. It'll give you privileged access to the filesystem and applications, allowing you to have a custom store (for example).

I think Android is actually about the right amount of openness for an environment deployed on 3 billion devices.

Android 11 released

rodgerd — Thu, 10 Sep 2020 04:00:50 +0000

Android at Google started out with a lot of promises and hype from Google about "having root on your phone" and openness, but it has evolved to a point where it somehow manages to have the worst aspects of a closed system - locked bootlockers, critical APIs hidden in proprietary blobs - without providing any of the security and privacy benefits iOS offers for those trade-offs.

It has truly become the worst of all worlds.

Android 11 released

meyert — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 20:34:52 +0000

Mhh, interesting.

I wonder if "vendor modules" using stable KMI are considered derivative work and must get open sourced under GPL?!

Android 11 released

poruid — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 17:21:18 +0000

Fairphone 3(+) ?

Android 11 released

juliank — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:17:09 +0000

This is going to be interesting for the Android 12 devices, which must ship with Google's GKI binaries. I mean, in theory, Google could then just push out kernel updates themselves?

Android 11 released

juliank — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:12:00 +0000

Aside from Pixels, there only is one: Nokia. All other vendors abandoned Android One this year. Motorola ships "regular" security updates, but they don't say how regular. And Nokia is dying fast, they ship less and less phones.

If you don't go for stock look, Samsung flagships get monthly updates, OnePlus every two months. Those are 1st of month patches though, so if you get an update end of September for Sep 01, the platform vendor blobs will only be at Aug 05. So pretty meh.

Android 11 released

catilac — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:55:34 +0000

I wonder how this will perform on a palm phone. Very excited about possibly leaving the apple ecosystem.

Android 11 released

bojan — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 14:03:24 +0000

Had a Motorola a couple of years back, but they broke their promise of timely updates. Switched to Nokia and they kept their promise for over two years now. Nokia ships Android One, which is stock.

Android 11 released

patrick_g — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 11:01:49 +0000

> Meanwhile, my phone updated to Android 10 only last month, and the vendor is making a lot of noise about how amazingly fast this was.

I have a Pixel 3a XL and I received the Android 11 update today.
If your vendor is slow to update you need to select a new vendor for your next phone.

Android 11 released

karim — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 10:44:18 +0000

The biggest thing here is Generic Kernel Image. See details here:
https://source.android.com/devices/architecture/kernel/ge...
And this is the full list of internals-related changes:
https://source.android.com/setup/start/android-11-release

Android 11 released

Wol — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 10:22:53 +0000

I'd heard that Motorola were pretty good for stock android, so I got a G5. Later heard that was the lemon between two roses, but I was pretty happy with it. Upgraded recently to a G8 and gave it to my brother-in-law, at which point I discovered why the sound occasionally stopped working ...

For anybody who does have a G5, there's a BIG design flaw (which affects several other phones too). The speaker uses touch contacts, so it can move slightly and breaks the connection! Try not to flex the upper right corner as this will stop the speaker, unless it's not working in which case you want to do it to fix it!

Cheers,
Wol

Android 11 released

josh — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 10:16:47 +0000

Google Pixel devices, and the small subset of devices from vendors that ship completely stock Android with no vendor modifications whatsoever. I said "1-3" because such devices tend to rotate, and no one vendor seems to consistently offer them. For instance, Motorola did for a little while, on devices sold through the Google store.

Android 11 released

Snackiz — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:57:19 +0000

Just out of my curiousity, which vendors do you consider the good ones?

Personally I'm pretty happy with my OnePlus and the Samsung that was provided by my workplace.

Android 11 released

Sesse — Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:27:42 +0000

When I eventually replaced my Nexus 5 (which, at the time of launch, was the best and most responsive phone I've ever used—but now, slowness invariably caught up with it), I made sure to go for a phone with Android One. It got Android 10 something like a month after launch; I guess Android 11 will be a bit slower, though.