LWN: Comments on "Loaded terms in free software"

Loaded terms in free software

kjpye — Wed, 29 Jul 2020 01:42:24 +0000

So how would you describe a DB25 connector -- there are male sockets and female plugs? The plug/socket terminology refers to the overall shape of the connector, and the male/female refers to the individual pins.

Loaded terms in free software

anselm — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 14:12:48 +0000

This is not very helpful with, e.g., XLR audio cables, which have a “male” plug (with prongs) at one end and a “female” plug (with holes) at the other.

Loaded terms in free software

flussence — Tue, 28 Jul 2020 12:41:18 +0000

And we can do better. Plug, socket. Words half a millennium old, unambiguously referring to machine fixtures connecting together.

Less bikeshedding, more sending the likes of ESR into hilarious public tantrums.

Loaded terms in free software

Shabbyx — Mon, 27 Jul 2020 05:33:38 +0000

IIUC, male/female is the sex, man/woman/etc is the gender. I don't think anyone has a problem with the former.

Loaded terms in free software

SPYFF — Thu, 09 Jul 2020 10:59:31 +0000

Yes, its perfectly fine to do both. Or at least it would be nice, but if you really do something which is actually helps, why would you mocking the help with replacing strings in random obscure online sourcecodes? This whole logocide isn’t it more about never wanting to take the next/real steps and getting away with a cheap excuse? I just tried to reflect to the logic behind all of the recent changes executed by large tech firms and opensource projects.

My actual opinion is there are no systematic racism. And yet even if there are racist voices around opensource projects (I see zero over the years, but migh happens) I more scared about logocide and semanticide which happens day by day towards to a newspeak language.

Ferenc Fejes

Loaded terms in free software

dottedmag — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 17:40:20 +0000

You are mixing up language change and Red Guards roaming around ready to crucify anyone who does not subscribe to their word usage. What I'm arguing against is "cancel culture", not language change.

Fun and appropriate fact: Red Guards committees in Beijing decided that red traffic light for "stop" is un-communistic and decreed to change green/red meaning to opposite. As you can imagine, this decision was reverted shortly afterwards, but not only before thousands of people died.

execution!

Cyberax — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 16:58:13 +0000

A company I worked in recommended using "processing" instead of "execution". And that was in early 2000-s.

execution!

N0NB — Fri, 03 Jul 2020 12:03:53 +0000

I noticed that too. In the context of this article/discussion "execution" is inexorably linked with lynching. My initial thought was that "implemented" would be the correct term but this discussion to this point has taught me that this word is a problem due to the close association of chattel slavery with that of being a farm implement.

Of course, I expect this to be hand waved away because reasons.

Loaded terms in free software

danilo — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 19:09:44 +0000

"Black" to indicate "bad" is not at all unfounded: black or dark night is very understandable to be worse than a white/light day (good), and has deep history in very natural survival habits (it's so much easier to hunt but also to farm during the daylight, and that's food, right?).

What does not make any sense is calling people "black" or "white" because of their skin colour! I've never met a white person (my boy calls his hands to be "creamish"), nor did I meet a "black" one. But so far, that's exactly the same as white for daylight (it's not really white — black as absence of light reflection is actually pretty apt).

However, where it terribly falls apart is in calling descendants of "black" and "white" people exclusively "black". If that's not use of language reaffirming prejudiced stereotypes, I do not know what is.

So while I agree language can have an effect, I am surprised nobody worries about this particular issue which seems so much greater to me!

Loaded terms in free software

anton.molyboha — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 05:09:10 +0000

I met a person who told me they were offended by the "master" and "slave" terms.

Loaded terms in free software

flussence — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 08:57:23 +0000

Well… a week later and it's “only” 400 comments. Thankfully the worst of it's from a manageable number of people. Glad to be mostly wrong here.

Loaded terms in free software

mjg59 — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 23:17:58 +0000

> Whether that's good or bad I don't know

It was good. Clearly, unambiguously good.

Loaded terms in free software

Wol — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 22:47:21 +0000

Don't shoot the messenger. LWN is merely reporting what's going on. And seeing as it's rather controversial you're going to get a lot of strong opinions.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

Wol — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 22:44:04 +0000

Well that change probably pleased half the people, and upset the other half. Whether that's good or bad I don't know.

What I'm thinking of is White Brits telling White Brits "you can't do this you might offend Muslims, you can't do that you might offend the Blacks, you can't do the other you might offend ..."

Arrogantly speaking on behalf of others without listening to said others saying "Stop speaking on our behalf! We don't want what you're asking for!" And this entire kerfuffle to me seems to be exactly that - one bunch of people speaking on behalf of another, without paying any attention to what those others actually want!

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

darktjm — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 21:51:54 +0000

I do not wish to live in a "community" that might consider /dev/ptmx offensive. And blacklist. When did these people come into power? The twatterverse wins again. Instead of discussing the merits of software and systems, it's far more important to censor the language we use, with a "new urgency".

What to do? I can't just change the OS I've been using since the Amiga disappeared. I mean, I never loved Linux, but at least it was better than the alternatives at the time. I guess I'll just distance myself even more from the "community" so that I don't ever have to hear this bullshit again. I don't even know why I still read LWN. I stopped caring about the content well over a decade ago.

Loaded terms in free software

mjg59 — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 19:28:14 +0000

> our British experience is it makes matters worse

Renaming the Royal Ulster Constabulary to the Police Service of Northern Ireland definitely did not make matters worse.

Loaded terms in free software

Wol — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:02:55 +0000

In other words, make changes for good sound technical reasons. Great.

DON'T make them for "we want to be nice to other people" - our British experience is it makes matters worse, and if I was on the receiving end I'd be rather offended at other people telling me what was good for me.

Cheers,
Wol

Loaded terms in free software

cpitrat — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:19:19 +0000

> You should continue to use terms that are relatable to programmers and have been for decades and not give in to PC culture.

Actually I think this is a good opportunity to reflect on the use that is made of those term and switch to more precise and meaningful terms. I've seen the master/slave names been used for very different things even in the same application. Sometimes a slave is a hot-standby, sometimes a cold-standby, sometimes a read-only replica, etc ... Coming up with short distinct descriptive names would actually be beneficial so that you don't have to explain every time you mention "slave" which kind of slave it is.

Loaded terms in free software

sombragris — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 21:16:59 +0000

"Main" as a substitute of "master" is acceptable on most contexts.
But why should "master" be banned?
"Master" come from the Latin "magister", which means a teacher, or a magistrate.
Why any master's degree should be considered offensive?

I understand the importance of word choices. Slavery is not something in the past but very much in the present, indeed. But this is just too much snowflakery.

Loaded terms in free software

jwarnica — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:30:27 +0000

Like improving the armor of the parts of WWII bombers that return with bullet holes in them, you are entirely missing the point.

(I'll expand on my quip that as I wrote it, I changed "beefing up" to "improving". Its a idiom in common use, but changing it to something more accurate and less offensive cost me nothing.)

Loaded terms in free software

sbakker — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 14:53:43 +0000

Subversion sees tree:
Says, “There is no ‘master branch’!
It's a ‘trunk’, you git!”

Loaded terms in free software

LyonJE — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 09:26:40 +0000

Am I missing something here? Slavery is bad. In humans. It's fine for hunks of machinery to act as slaves to other hunks of machinery though. Sure, I get the term alarms people, but the word isn't the problem -- and erasing the use of the word either makes no difference or actually makes things worse. The parts of tech that are slaves can be called slaves. People who are slaves should be called slaves too, and we should collectively do everything in our power to bring an end to people being slaves. But don't just erase the word and think the problems have gone away.

Loaded terms in free software

farnz — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 07:47:26 +0000

And yet you are policing people's behaviour, by saying that they are not permitted to change the language used in FOSS to language they are more comfortable with?

Why are you so damned upset about people stepping up to do the work to change the language here?

Loaded terms in free software

nim-nim — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 05:58:05 +0000

You can be whoever you want to be. That's not my business. Just like others can be whoever they want to be. That's not *your* business to police.

Policing behaviour is a matter for the police, applying democratically voted laws, not for self appointed vigilantes that invent strenuous pretexts so they can indulge in harassment and bask in the power of imposing their will on others

Loaded terms in free software

marcH — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 08:55:55 +0000

I heard "Dick" is not a popular nickname anymore though.

Lucky the ones who think they understand how language works...

Loaded terms in free software

marcH — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 08:26:39 +0000

> And no one bats an eye. It's a non issue here.

BTW I wonder how many languages have "workarounds" like: the F-word. I don't remember British or Irish people doing that.

> The "let's change technical language" camp seems to be mostly American.

It's even more specific: it's mostly the American Left. One of the too many and worryingly growing gaps between the US Left and Right is the language. While some people on the left believe "dark ages" or "age of enlightenment" are modern and racist expressions, many on the right support the current president because he "speaks like us, not like them". In other words he has no filter and says whatever words cross his mind at any point in time. While the Left obviously consider this as a "bug", it's literally a _feature_ for the Right. Then the propaganda on each side keeps deriding the other. Two parallel universes separated by a common language.

While the whole world seems to turn more and more tribal every day, the US seem to really lead the pack
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/mar/01/how-ameri...

https://www.google.com/search?q=everything+is+fine&tb...

> (not as bad as the US thankfully but still unacceptable).

Right, these are also uniquely American: poorly trained and educated cops (cause: taxes!) shooting suspects on sight who can keep their job until they're unlucky and a video of them makes the news. Barely any safety net (cause: taxes) that keeps inequality between the (mostly black) poor and (mostly white) rich growing and growing, even before racism and redlining. Little social services that gives poor people no other choice than follow their community leaders and very large freedom of speech that allows some of the latter to market any crazy and/or racist idea they want.

Now a fun fact people outside the US seem to often forget: the language of computers is _American English_ and yes it comes "loaded" with some of that. Hence these attempts to "unload" it a bit.

Loaded terms in free software

mvdwege — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 08:09:46 +0000

I don't know. Have people actually complained? And if yes, in enough numbers that this appears to be a systemic problem?

Loaded terms in free software

mvdwege — Wed, 24 Jun 2020 08:01:44 +0000

You show me the first 'SJW' calling for the burning of history books, and I'll take your concern seriously.

Loaded terms in free software

jezuch — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 11:54:29 +0000

Hah well, Latin may have split into several distinctly named languages but, first, it had about a 1000 years to do so, and, second, Spanish and Portuguese are really bad examples for your cause. The official language of Brazil is still called Portuguese. The language spoken all over Latin America is still called Spanish. I'm not familiar with their identity politics but I don't think they're moaning in Spain that these hideous rebels in New Spain are destroying their language...

Anyway, English is not yours anymore and you have no right to dictate how other peoples use it. If it has ever actually been yours. A living language is much like free software - if you don't like the direction it's going in, you can fork it. But then you can't complain that nobody understands you when you speak The One True English.

ungendered language

smurf — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 10:31:08 +0000

So? I did not write that language is the only influence on people's thinking, much less the only influence that shapes sexist thinking.

In any case, our esteemed editor has kindly asked us to shut up now. Did you miss that?

ungendered language

xoddam — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 09:15:23 +0000

Chinese and Farsi (the primary language of Iran) are languages where there is no grammatical distinction between male and female *people*. In Iran, women do not traditionally take their husband's surnames upon marriage.

China and Iran are not known especially for their lack of sexism, however.

Loaded terms in free software

balkanboy — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 08:45:28 +0000

You should continue to use terms that are relatable to programmers and have been for decades and not give in to PC culture. If someone feels "uncomfortable" because of a certain term is being used, perhaps they ought to visit a therapist to find out what the true source of their discomfort is, rather than controlling the circumstances that trigger it, which are mostly outside of the person's control, and frankly, presumptuous to think everyone should give into their request for personal comfort.

Germanic-speaking Keltoi

xoddam — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 07:15:11 +0000

It's entirely possible that the languages that were mutually intelligible across the channel between ancient Belgium and Kent at the time of the invasions of Julius and Claudius Caesar were not what we would call Celtic languages today, but Germanic ones. Indeed, perhaps many of the peoples referred to by ancient Greeks and Romans as Celts were Germanic-speaking, and the eastern half of the island of Britain spoke languages of the Germanic family long before the arrival of the Romans. (This theory isn't very popular, nor is there any way to prove or disprove it conclusively at such remove, but I for one find it very plausible).

http://www.proto-english.org/l4.html

Bookmark this, come back in a year or two

himi — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 01:53:07 +0000

That's not what's happened with the women's rights movement, which has been pushing for exactly this kind of change since the 1960s - society is, in general, much more accepting of women as deserving equality and deserving respect. It's far from perfect, and it probably won't reach anything like a state of perfection for generations, but the inevitable bad result that you envisage simply hasn't happened, and doesn't look likely to happen (particularly not across the whole world - some states and populations may face backward movements, but there's no reason to believe the majority experience won't continue to improve).

Loaded terms in free software

mjg59 — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 21:00:30 +0000

If you have a name that people interpret as female on IRC, you'll have a very different experience to if you have a name that people interpret as male. Is using your real name acting like a normal human being?

Stop here please

milesrout — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:56:01 +0000

Noted. Deleted my comment notifications too.

Loaded terms in free software

milesrout — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:49:59 +0000

Yes because it's not actually harmful.

If one stupid change was made but that was the whole issue that would be fine. But it won't be one change. It will be a long series of stupid changes. If we let this one happen then they'll just move on to the next like cop or blacklist

Loaded terms in free software

milesrout — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:47:59 +0000

I'm not arguing in bad faith and never have been. My point that you are ignoring is quite obvious. Respond to it or not at all, troll.

Stop here please

corbet — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:46:45 +0000

This is not going anywhere useful, and this article is approaching 400 comments. I think that is enough. Please stop here.

Loaded terms in free software

milesrout — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 20:46:18 +0000

Acting like a normal human being isn't "acting male" any more than it is "acting white"... You seem to be RATHER confused.