LWN: Comments on "Xfce 4.14 released"

Xfce 4.14 released

ThinkRob — Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:36:37 +0000

I jest less than you might think. :D I actually picked up Xfce (XFCE?) for the same reason as you. At the time CDE was closed source, and I could grok Xfce enough to make my DE look like it. (Sorta.)

Of course now CDE's open and Free and Xfce has moved on from its original use case.

How time flies...

Xfce 4.14 released

gfernandes — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 16:01:33 +0000

Undoubtedly, they are!

Try playing Netflix on a Firefox of 5 years vintage. Or try running a Java applet in the latest incarnation.

Xfce 4.14 released

jospoortvliet — Sat, 17 Aug 2019 07:47:37 +0000

> Continually having to relearn the use of tools is a massive waste of time.

That is why most software (on mobile phones) has much faster release cycles, bringing changes incrementally and thus giving users only a few changes at a time. That makes it easier to get used to them and actually benefit from and like the improvements. Indeed, normal users don’t like to have to explore a whole new world of changes... but a few concrete ones is ok. In general, if a release has more that a handful of changes users are overwhelmed so slow release cycles are a bad idea.

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 00:25:47 +0000

>I don't know as I would call those "users".

That falls into the No true scotsman fallacy. Of course they are users. They might not be the majority but Linux desktop users aren't the majority either. We shouldn't just discount users who have a different preference. They often provide a valuable service by being leading edge adopters and help conservative users get more mature software

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Fri, 16 Aug 2019 00:22:07 +0000

I don't understand the comparison to KHTML which clearly has long since superseded by other HTML engines. I never said anything metrics of productivity either. All I essentially said was that there is no evidence that the slower release process is intentional for Xfce. I even said that that might be a good fit for userbase so how is that throwing mud at them? This is an odd response

Xfce 4.14 released

flussence — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 21:43:03 +0000

KHTML has had five commits and eight version numbers this year, so maybe stop throwing mud at projects that don't subscribe to your utterly delusional and disproven-in-the-90s middle-management metrics of productivity.

Xfce 4.14 released

dskoll — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 17:32:41 +0000

You jest, but I picked Xfce originally for exactly that reason. I had a job working on Sun workstations and grew used to CDE. There was no way I was gonna learn new keybindings and a new desktop for home.

Xfce 4.14 released

tjc — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 14:42:55 +0000

3.1.4 came out last year, although it's legal status is uncertain.

Xfce 4.14 released

atai — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 00:01:33 +0000

I am still waiting for the next release of AmigaOS. I have been waiting for something like, 25 years

Xfce 4.14 released

ThinkRob — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 23:40:52 +0000

Ahhhh, XFCE. The first choice of the user skinning her/his desktop to look like CDE. :-P

But joking aside, congrats XFCE team. Choice is good, and it's good to have more choices than the mainstream KDE/GNOME ones. :-)

Xfce 4.14 released

ermo — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 20:01:07 +0000

Complaining that it's late after it's already been released is a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. 4.14 is out and works quite well in my experience. What more do people want?

Having the followed the 4.13-prereleases up close, I've been pretty surprised by the level of community engagement since this winter. It seems to me that a lot of things came together rather quickly in 7-8 months after having perhaps stagnated a bit in previous years for whatever reason.

Apart from 4.14 bugfixes, the focus will now shift to migrating the infrastructure to gitlab AIUI. I expect good things to come from this move on the contributor side, but we shall see as the Zen Master says.

Xfce 4.14 released

Wol — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:36:27 +0000

> Outside the FOSS world, seems macOS users are mostly happy with a yearly release cycle. And hasn't MS switched to doing some incremental updates to Windows 10 every few months or so?

Is that a *push* update? Do users *want* them, or are they *scared into* them?

My systems still run XP in a virtual box, although I have - finally - pretty much weaned my wife onto Windows 10. 7 never got off the ground because they changed things and *broke* the way things worked happily in XP - fortunately 10 now behaves much better as a superset of XP than as a "rewrite and change everything" set.

Cheers,
Wol

Xfce 4.14 released

Wol — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:32:33 +0000

> Oh that is easy to disprove. Some users absolutely love faster past changes (think say Arch or Rawhide users)

I don't know as I would call those "users". Are they *using* their computer, or *playing* with it. I run gentoo - I have to rebuild it regularly, I *play* with it. There's absolutely NO WAY I would want it on my mum's computer (who *uses* her computer) - the support nightmare would be intense.

For people who *use* their computer, rather than *play* with their computer, change is to be avoided as much as possible (and as someone who provides luser support to the family, I try to change *their* systems as little as possible!!!).

Cheers,
Wol

Xfce 4.14 released

gb — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 15:13:34 +0000

Hey, common it is not just gtk3 migration. It is HiDPI support and color management. Notification management. As a xfce user for last 7 years, I can not wait to get back home from work and try it =)

Xfce 4.14 released

gb — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 15:06:46 +0000

> Browsers evolve fast, true

Really? I can not recall any change which matter for me in browsers in last 5 years. I can recall some performance improvement in Firefox last year may be. So are they evolving, really?

Xfce 4.14 released

jrigg — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:25:10 +0000

> Oh that is easy to disprove.

Maybe for "some" users, but I think not for the majority. Continually having to relearn the use of tools is a massive waste of time.

Browsers are a case in point. Constant changes in web browsers drive corresponding changes in web development fads. Web sites break regularly every few months, necessitating a new browser (and learning a new configuration procedure) every time. Banking web sites are among the worst offenders here.

Most users I know would be happy with just security patches and bug fixes. Those who enjoy playing with the latest software features are enthusiasts and are not typical of the majority.

Xfce 4.14 released

joib — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:06:29 +0000

I'm sure there are those Linux desktop users that do something like running CentOS and skipping every other release (e.g. 4->6->8), but AFAICT those are a tiny minority. Seems most people want new stuff at a somewhat faster clip.

Outside the FOSS world, seems macOS users are mostly happy with a yearly release cycle. And hasn't MS switched to doing some incremental updates to Windows 10 every few months or so?

Xfce 4.14 released

joib — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:01:26 +0000

Sort of interesting that the OSS projects with the most massive and complex code bases and high pace of development (Linux kernel and web browsers) have converged on a roughly 3 month release schedule (with occasional LTS releases).

Xfce 4.14 released

interalia — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 05:27:54 +0000

You probably triggered this by commenting that it was like Xfce just didn't have a whole lot of developers active, which got some people's hackles up.

I agree with you that Xfce probably isn't carefully being deliberately slow in releasing. Suppose a couple of developers went hard and finished the GTK3 conversion etc. in 2017, would the project have held off on releasing just because it was too soon? I don't think so, a 2 year gap in major revisions doesn't sound too disruptive for the userbase.

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 01:21:23 +0000

> Exactly the same! Users do not like fast-paced change, PERIOD!

Oh that is easy to disprove. Some users absolutely love faster past changes (think say Arch or Rawhide users) and more importantly, whether are not one wants a more aggressive or conservative release has not much to do with version numbers and more to do with things like how disruptive it is. Browsers I think have done a reasonable job of reasonable job of striking a good balance ex: binary delta updates on the background, smaller incremental feature set etc. Most users have no idea what the version number is and don't care

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 01:17:26 +0000

> The number of developers is irrelevant.

Not quite. Desktop tech doesn't stand still. A simple window manager doesn't need to care quite so much but a desktop environment has more to cover in terms of features. Xfce developers clearly want to adopt GTK3, Wayland and many other things like supporting high definition displays to keep up. With a small team, they have to keep the releases at a pace they are good with and that is atleast in part limited by the size of a team one has access to ie) you can always go slower but you can't necessarily go faster. As a conceded in my very post here which atleast some posters seem to have missed, the userbase might well be comfortable or even appreciative of that

Xfce 4.14 released

Wol — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 20:19:24 +0000

> You are proving my point here.

And, as is rather common, you are having difficulty deciding which is the cart, and which is the horse. Or in other words, are you confusing the cause with the effect?

The number of developers is irrelevant. The *important* question is do they have *enough* developers. Don't forget - is it Brook's - law. "Adding software developers makes a late project even later".

If they have more developers than they need - and you have provided absolutely no evidence either way - then the project is on solid footing. And judging by the comments several people have made here, that fact is much appreciated by users.

Cheers,
Wol

Xfce 4.14 released

Wol — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 20:13:13 +0000

Exactly the same! Users do not like fast-paced change, PERIOD!

Browsers evolve fast, true. Mostly because of serious bugs that let people steal the contents of your bank account in various inventive ways.

Most improvements are accepted with a resigned sigh of "oh no not again". If I could, my word-processor would be stuck on WordPerfect v8. Browsers are a pain in the arse, likewise email readers. Any upgrade to Windows triggers a support nightmare.

BY DEFINITION, for a user, the computer is a TOOL. And if you keep on having to relearn how your tool works every few months, that is a ginormous waste of time. And if you are elderly, or sick, or of average/below-average intelligence (that's probably 60-70% of all people), relearning your tools is A PROBLEM.

Ever noticed how it's always the young people who are bleeding edge adopters, and the oldies tend to stick with what they know until they are *forced* to upgrade?

Cheers,
Wol

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:00:57 +0000

Yes. I know what I said. That reply to you does not refer to other DEs at all. It was solely focused on Xfce. It does not say that Xfce has no developers either

Xfce 4.14 released

rsidd — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:56:20 +0000

Wow, just wow.

What you wrote (just scroll up) in its entirety:

>Seems more like proof that Xfce just doesn't have a whole lot of developers active in that project. That might just work out to be fine for the Xfce userbase but let's not equate it to some deliberately slow release process

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:50:24 +0000

No I replied to both. My reply did you not bring up other DE at all not did I say that it has no developers. The other poster did bring up both DE first and I was replying directly to that. You are just confused about threading

Xfce 4.14 released

dskoll — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:45:14 +0000

GNOME and KDE are huge projects. I don't know for sure because I haven't worked it out, but I would guess that developers / lines of code would be roughly comparable.

Also, as anyone who has worked in the software field for any time at all should know, the productivity of a development team is not proportional to the number of developers. The quality of the developers has a huge effect, and especially the quality of the leaders.

It's a fact that despite what you may say about the number of Xfce developers, they've managed to produce stable, useful and efficient software. Additionally, the slow release pace is a function of the software's maturity and not due to lack of developer resources.

Xfce 4.14 released

rsidd — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:38:52 +0000

Er... Scroll up. You replied directly to my post, saying it's cos they haz no developers.

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:24:53 +0000

We disagree that the slow release process is deliberate. No evidence for that. The comment I replied to directly did mention both GNOME and KDE explicitly and negativity. I didn’t bring it up first. You are making the case that the poster is being touchy. Not me.

Xfce 4.14 released

rsidd — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:16:00 +0000

I'm saying stable software doesn't need an army of developers. 9+6+occasional contributors is plenty.

As for my OP, here it is in full

4.10 in 2012, 4.12 in 2015, 4.14 in 2019. Proof, I think, that when something "just works" manically fast release cycles aren't needed. Typing this on an xfce+i3 setup.

In reply to which you scoffed at the number of developers. If you think any reference to KDE or Gnome was explicit: no. If you think it is implicit: touchiness case made. I was thinking of a large number of other (non-desktop-environment) projects whose release cycles I do follow; I haven't kept track of KDE or Gnome in years.

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:02:36 +0000

So you don’t disagree anymore that Xfce has less resources. You are claiming that less resources doesn’t cause slower releases? OP absolutely did refer to both KDE and GNOME explicitly. Also I don’t really have any affiliation with any DE really. If anything I introduced the Xfce spin in Fedora and continue to use it where it makes sense. My point has nothing to do with personal preferences

Xfce 4.14 released

rsidd — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:43:44 +0000

You are confusing cause and effect. Plus, wow are gnome people touchy. My OP made no reference to other DEs. Why did you feel threatened by it?

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:35:33 +0000

So your numbers show that they have much less active developers than KDE or GNOME. You are proving my point here.

Xfce 4.14 released

tjc — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:33:54 +0000

As a casual user of AmigaOS, the Xfce release schedule seems really fast. I don't know how they do it! :)

Xfce 4.14 released

dskoll — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:19:13 +0000

It's not an obvious fact at all. Their mailing lists and git are quite active. They have 9 core developers, another 6 active developers, and many more casual contributors.

The release pace is slow because Xfce is mature software, and they don't feel the need to break the world with each major release *cough* Gnome *cough* KDE.

I'd like to give thanks and a shout-out to the Xfce developers. You have provided my Linux desktop for over 20 years and you continue to provide unobtrusive yet awesome software. Thanks!

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 12:50:33 +0000

Saying that’s it’s disparaging to point out that they are doing slower releases because they have less resources doesn’t make any sense . It’s an obvious fact.

Xfce 4.14 released

rahulsundaram — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 12:48:00 +0000

What about things like browsers?

Xfce 4.14 released

tao — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 12:08:35 +0000

Well, considering that one of the biggest changes was moving to GTK3, you'd think that they could've been a bit faster. GTK3 was released, what, 2011? Still, better later than never.

Then again, the original user of GTK, GIMP, has *still* not been ported, so...

Xfce 4.14 released

cpanceac — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:12:00 +0000

Anybody knows what are the RAM requirements of this release compared with the previous one?

Xfce 4.14 released

k8to — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 07:07:03 +0000

Regular users dislike fast-moving software unless the fast movement is specifically adding features they're eagerly anticipating. When building a cheaper competitor, or re-imagining a business category in the early stages, or building a product category that's never existed before, the features and the pace are the winners. In most other situations, fast pace is generally unwanted.

They dislike very large meaningless numbers too, but beyond a certain level of change they tune them out entirely.