LWN: Comments on "The end of Scientific Linux"

The end of Scientific Linux

hkario — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:16:40 +0000

> After redhat ate Centos, the only RHEL-distro I could continue to recommend was Scientific.

except that CentOS is continuing as it was, with software being freely downloadable?

The end of Scientific Linux

bwned — Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:04:57 +0000

We have to discontinue SL because of DUNE. You know how DUNE gets. You can't reason with it.

The end of Scientific Linux

walex — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 12:29:38 +0000

This is very sad, because an independent distro tied to a very long term project like the CERN Grid was very useful to have around for "continuity". But first CERN lost interest in SL, and decided to adopt CentOS, and then the end of SL was inevitable.

It is part of a general trend: universities and research organizations always cut first non-research engineering jobs, because they are "overheads", not "front line" and the result is inevitably a considerable shrinking of the ability to operate and maintain infrastructure, or later having to pay a fortune to vendors for remedial operation and maintenance.

But in the short term dumping/recycling a few (probably SL took 3-4 engineers, a drop in the ocean of HEP staff levels) staff jobs and letting a vendor fund the equivalent work seems to work.

At this point I guess that if we are to be limited to "in house" "not so independent" community distributions, OpenSUSE looks very attractive compared to CentOS, with much better support from their vendor, and much nicer update cycles, and SUSE has been growing robustly, so it is a viable long term sponsor.

The end of Scientific Linux

nilsmeyer — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:29:40 +0000

> ... I wonder if I should hold a little funeral in my backyard with the old optical media?

Since it's not bio-degradable, please don't ;)

The end of Scientific Linux

sytoka — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 07:35:42 +0000

The objective of Debian is not to make software development but build a distro. The great job of Debian is to support multi-arch (many soft just don't compile by default outside of amd64 or arm64, thanks to Debian) and now Debian give more and more the key to build and verify your package (see Reproductible build project). Red-hat keep the key of their building infrastructure.

So Debian and Red-hat are just complementary...

The end of Scientific Linux

scientes — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 01:40:02 +0000

RedHat does an incredibly amount of development, that projects like Debian will never match, and they do it all under free licenses. I wish people would stop thinking that making money is a bad thing.

The end of Scientific Linux

Kamilion — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 21:22:54 +0000

Welp, guess that closes the book on redhat for me.
No more community distros, and a focus on keeping expensive commercial software running?

After redhat ate Centos, the only RHEL-distro I could continue to recommend was Scientific.

Now there's nothing.

Go get debian buster. Forget about SRPMs, RPMs, DoesNotFinish, Yum, Extras repos, RPMForge, and all the rest of the redhat headaches.

Bye Redhat. You were nice twenty years ago; I still have fond memories of Redhat Linux 7.

... I wonder if I should hold a little funeral in my backyard with the old optical media?

The end of Scientific Linux

smoogen — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 15:38:15 +0000

I have a sad on this.. I started working with Fermi Lab in 1998(?) on the first Fermi Lab Linux which later became Scientific Linux. The people who worked on the OS over the years did a lot of work in the open about problems and fixes they needed to make for their customers. You could get serious and spirited debates on everything from needs for particle physics to openssh working with various kerberos environments. Plus a lot of TeX..

The end of Scientific Linux

nitroflow — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 13:03:00 +0000

The wonderful thing about linux is that you can install it on a USB stick and then customize it and update it.

The end of Scientific Linux

LightDot — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 01:25:52 +0000

From memory, there was a time (several years ago now) when CentOS updates were pretty delayed, but I think SL has had a consistenly good track record in this regard. (Perhaps this is nostalgia.)

I also think this is correct. SL has been solid for us, thanks to all that work or were working on it.

To reminiscent a bit, there was indeed a significant delay at the beginning of the CentOS 6 cycle in 2011.

The CentOS situation back then wasn't at all good. After the initial delay following the RHEL 6 release, CentOS 6 got released but than the updates for the OS were non-existent for some time and that was not the level of service CentOS users were used to.

If I recall correctly, no critical security issues were discovered while this was going on, except for a remotely exploitable Firefox bug. I'm sure not that many workstations were deployed and those who were could use a vanilla Firefox or rebuild this particular RedHat's SRPM to remedy the situation.

In any case, I remember Scientific Linux getting a big user boost at that time, although CentOS returned to its usual level of service later on.

By the time RHEL 7 and CentOS 7 were released, the situation has greatly changed and there were indeed questions if any other rebuilds besides CentOS make sense. I guess the end of Scientific Linux further answers this dilemma now that RHEL 8 is 'round the corner.

IMHO, this does make the community weaker in a sense, although on the other hand, the knowledge or the ability to make alternative RHEL rebuilds isn't going away. If CentOS falters or fails in some way, the community will respond.

The end of Scientific Linux

pabs — Tue, 23 Apr 2019 01:20:34 +0000

Glad to see a derivative distribution merging with its parent. That seems to validate the "work in the upstream distro" approach taken by the Debian Science team. OTOH there isn't any mention of Fedora/COPR in the announcement but I guess that is due to the length of support that Fedora releases get.

https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScience

The end of Scientific Linux

mohg — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:41:34 +0000

I've used Scientific Linux for many years on a number of systems (to support a research group in a science field that wasn't high-energy physics). The Fermilab team have done a great job maintaining SL for as long as I've used it.

From memory, there was a time (several years ago now) when CentOS updates were pretty delayed, but I think SL has had a consistenly good track record in this regard. (Perhaps this is nostalgia.)

Given the current healthy state of CentOS (and of course the acquisition by Red Hat), and the seemingly ever-tightening funding situation for US national labs, this feels like an inevitable outcome. I don't know how much of their work week the people involved spent on SL, but I hope they will transition to other projects in the lab. It is great to hear that older versions will continued to be supported.

And no, I don't think there was anything special about the distribution from a "scientific" perspective. It was just a solid, professionally maintained distribution with its roots in the HEP community.

Thank you Scientific Linux!

Live USB is limited

jreiser — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 21:48:43 +0000

live images from USB sticks (and can therefore trivially install new packages - and critically, update existing ones)

The available space in the filesystem after booting a Live USB stick is limited: enough fora few handfuls of small or medium packages, but definitely less than one might think. I have run out a few times, such as "dnf update" of a Fedora Live USB two months later.

The end of Scientific Linux

markhahn — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 19:44:32 +0000

Were you fixated on your live distro being RO? Don't most people use live images from USB sticks (and can therefore trivially install new packages - and critically, update existing ones)?

The end of Scientific Linux

rahulsundaram — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 18:38:03 +0000

> It should have had a more appropriate name.

Kinda late to debate the naming when a distro is announcing EOL

The end of Scientific Linux

dowdle — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:51:26 +0000

Learn how to build your own live media (with your desired packge list) and it won't be a problem. It is actually fairly easy. Install livecd-tools, get a sample kickstart... and just augment the package list.

The end of Scientific Linux

teknohog — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:24:15 +0000

I came across SL quite recently. I was looking for a live distro for a student workshop and I needed gnuplot, which was particularly hard to find in a live system. SL LiveDVD Extra was the only one that fit this bill.

Most scientists will probably need some specific software that doesn't come in any default install, but can be installed in a variety of distros (incidentally, I used to spend time with the HE physics community). The distro choice is much more crucial if you need something available in a LiveCD.

The end of Scientific Linux

jccleaver — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:08:37 +0000

Sadly, the era of "white box" rebuilds of RHEL gaining any meaningful traction are probably behind us. Scientific Linux in earlier times had benefits, but by the late EL6 period there was very little it did that could not have been covered by "___ Extras" repositories on a binary-compatible RHEL rebuild (notably with a more finely-tuned kernel), and SL7 might as well have been a CentOS 7 Spin.

It's a shame for a number of reasons, including simply having heterogenous diversity within the EL ecosystem on the RedHat side. At this point, the people the most likely to want the stability of an EL environment to begin with have to have a *significant* justification to eschew the 100% binary-compatible guarantee goal of CentOS itself. After all, while rebuilds can often get unofficial support, once you're off the reservation you're sort of off the reservation. More than anything else, this is probably why a systemd-free EL version isn't easy to get off the ground.

Unless your name is Johnny Hughes, it doesn't seem likely than anyone's EL rebuild project will take off in the future given the resource re-investment required. I think the community will be less-strong as a result.

The end of Scientific Linux

rsidd — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:44:56 +0000

The vast majority of scientists never used it -- it was intended for one community only (high-energy physics). It should have had a more appropriate name.