LWN: Comments on "Teaching Python to kids"

Teaching Python to kids

paulj — Tue, 10 Jul 2018 06:31:36 +0000

Or social reasons. If a field is one of the few where a people are allowed to be successful, they will gravitate to that to seek success.

Teaching Python to kids

nix — Sun, 08 Jul 2018 15:51:11 +0000

I laughed at that, but I'm afraid I was laughing *at* HelloWorld, not with him. The special pleading here is quite noticeable.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:36:53 +0000

> Yet you come here and simply state that no evidence exists
I never said that no such evidence exists, I said it hasn't been presented, and the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I also made it clear later that I specifically meant evidence for the (significant) discrimination of women in programming, so I don't know why you even brought up race. I appreciate your attempt to provide evidence, but unfortunately it's evidence for the wrong claim.

Another interesting observation to make here is that when you articulate doubts about the discrimination narrative of women in tech, you get unfounded accusations of dishonesty. When you point out the discrimination of men in some fields (e. g. conscription), it is simply ignored. How does that fit the narrative? If the tech industry is so misogynistic, wouldn't you expect somebody to show up here and say something that's _actually sexist_, e. g. suggest that women simply aren't smart enough to go into STEM fields (which the data don't support)?

Teaching Python to kids

CycoJ — Sun, 08 Jul 2018 03:26:20 +0000

The studies have been posted here and elsewhere multiple times and there exist internet search engines. Yet you come here and simply state that no evidence exists, but obviously completely innocently. So here are two links, just you can not say again that there exists no evidence:

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/minorities-who-whiten-job-resu...

Teaching Python to kids

nix — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 19:48:42 +0000

I have failed interviews that required me to write code on whiteboards. I can think it in my head but without my Emacs or at least a text editor of some sort I can't express it: it just refuses to emerge. (I don't think this is a real limitation in practice: I mean, with my handwriting it would take me hours to write anything significant on a whiteboard, and I'd be in pain for most of that time too. Handwriting is a legacy skill.)

I could probably also express myself in a couple of weirder environments, like, say, the strange line editors common on the BBC Micro, C64 and ZX81. But those are just older text editors, so my point stands. :)

Parkman Coders fundraising links

nix — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 19:45:53 +0000

As proof that not everything big companies do is evil, one donation listed there is a huge (for an individual) donation from Microsoft that got them half again above their goal on its own. Bravo!

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 18:52:50 +0000

Nope. IDE use is a force multiplier. Used correctly it saves time and improves productivity. Organizing projects to be IDE-friendly is also a skill.

Teaching Python to kids

amacater — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:47:01 +0000

IDE as harmful to programming skills :)

Yes, a colleague has just switched back to a flat file editor with no IDE smarts in order to pass an Oracle Java exam. Most modern editors know enough to do syntax highlighting and so on which is a benefit on which you come to rely without realising it.

Writing code line by line and debugging it by eye can be valuable - if only to save you when you're somewhere _without_ an IDE

Teaching Python to kids

ghane — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:27:01 +0000

> since you definitely need to know how to both read and spell in order to have a hope writing > Python

Spelling function names and variables? I thought that was what an IDE was for?

:-)

Teaching Python to kids

ghane — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 05:22:34 +0000

I have been reading this thread, and I must say @HelloWorld has stayed amazingly calm and on-topic in response to all the stuff thrown around.

"What do you know about Scandinavia?"
"I live in Scandinavia"
"Oh, so that makes you an expert on Scandinavia?"

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 00:15:34 +0000

> Which blacks?
I don't care because it doesn't have to do anything with my point. My point is that people with dark skin (for any sensible definition of dark) are overrepresented among track and field athletics and that that is _not_ a sign of discrimination against people with lighter skin.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Sat, 07 Jul 2018 00:04:05 +0000

> Just about 25% of employed psychology professors are female. Even though majority (around 70%) of graduates are female.
This is, again, not evidence for discrimination by itself. I have no idea why these numbers are the way they are, I haven't seen compelling evidence either way and you have, once again, not provided any.

Anyway, I think you've made your position quite clear. You also made it quite clear that you're not prepared to show any real evidence for the discrimination theory, and I'm sorry to say that you didn't leave me with the impression of somebody who will follow the evidence wherever it leads. So I'm done here.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 23:59:48 +0000

> Given that many communities appear to be stuck in low-income trap, it needs to be corrected for.
You clearly didn't get the point, so let me explain. Suppose we live in a world where IQ is 100% heritable and socioeconomic status is 100% determined by IQ. Now suppose you're a scientist in this world trying to find out whether IQ is heritable or determined by the environment. So you'd test some children and some parents and you'd soon realize that there's a 100% correlation in their IQs, so you conclude IQ is 100% heritable.
Now somebody tells you that you need to correct that for socioeconomic status. But because socioeconomic status is entirely the result of IQ in this world, the “corrected” correlation between the children's and the parents' IQs is now 0 – IOW you reach a completely wrong conclusion by “correcting” for socioeconomic status.

Now in the real world IQ is only partially heritable and socioeconomic status is not only a result of IQ, but this effect still exists, so you need to be careful when doing this kind of correction. You need to make sure that the variable you're correcting for is actually independent. For IQ studies that would mean you'd have to work with adopted children.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 23:55:56 +0000

> It's a bit dishonest to say "pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field ... is not evidence for discrimination" while ignoring the significant evidence of discrimination that exists.
Neither Cyberax nor pboddie ever brought up such studies, so accusing me of dishonesty is quite inappropriate.

Teaching Python to kids

CycoJ — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 23:34:21 +0000

>The point I was trying to make is that merely pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field (e. g. overrepresentation of blacks among criminals, underrepresentation of whites among successful athletes) is not evidence for discrimination. Again, I have no idea why blacks are overrepresented among prison inmates.

Except for the significant studies that showed reduced chances of job applicants with typical "black" names vs "white" names or significant studies that showed reduced chances of female job applicants on technical or management jobs vs male applicants.
It's a bit dishonest to say "pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field ... is not evidence for discrimination" while ignoring the significant evidence of discrimination that exists.

Teaching Python to kids

CycoJ — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 23:26:30 +0000

>I don't know what the reasons for that are. But here's a question for you: why is it that black men are more successful than whites in track and field athletics?

Which blacks? West Africans, East Africans, North Africans? The genetic differences between different regions in Africa are much bigger than the differences between "black" and "white" skin? As a European I'm always annoyed by the use of the word "race", because it implies a genetic difference based on skin colour that has no scientific foundation.

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 22:42:17 +0000

Switched?

Just about 25% of employed psychology professors are female. Even though majority (around 70%) of graduates are female.

Nope, no discrimination whatsoever.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 21:50:42 +0000

> it should help to visualise how industries can become (and then remain) segregated, given even a slight predisposition to affiliate with members of your own group.
But the point is that it doesn't seem to be that way in practice. All fields in academia were heavily male-dominated at the beginning of the 20th century, and yet this has switched for a large number of fields, where psychology is just one example. In fact there are more women than men enrolling in universities these days.

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 20:06:24 +0000

> Given that high intelligence helps achieving high socioeconomic status it doesn't really make a lot of sense to correct for that.
Given that many communities appear to be stuck in low-income trap, it needs to be corrected for.

> The point I was trying to make is that merely pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field (e. g. overrepresentation of blacks among criminals, underrepresentation of whites among successful athletes) is not evidence for discrimination.
It's not necessarily the evidence, but when coupled with cross-culture studies it becomes such.

> Again, I have no idea why blacks are overrepresented among prison inmates.
Because: 1) racism in police, 2) blacks are generally much more likely to grow in poor communities.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 19:05:09 +0000

> When corrected for socioeconomic status - they don't.
Given that high intelligence helps achieving high socioeconomic status it doesn't really make a lot of sense to correct for that.

> What does this have to do with IQ?
The point I was trying to make is that merely pointing out an over- or underrepresentation of some identity group in some field (e. g. overrepresentation of blacks among criminals, underrepresentation of whites among successful athletes) is not evidence for discrimination. Again, I have no idea why blacks are overrepresented among prison inmates.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 18:53:38 +0000

> I'm sorry, but I don't need to pander to your every demand. It was you who started off berating others for not providing evidence whilst not providing any of your own.
Except I _did_ provide evidence when you asked. You on the other hand didn't.

> I was merely providing a plausible explanation for a phenomenon, one that is considerably less lazy than "women don't really want to work with technology" which is basically what you are claiming.
I don't care whether you think the explanation is lazy, I care about whether it's true, and the data seem to indicate that.

> Since I live in a Scandinavian country, read/watch the media coverage, go about my daily life talking to real people and experiencing real things, maybe I have something to say about your cherry-picking of employment statistics (with no source, though).
Oh, you live in Scandinavia, I guess that makes you an expert. I'm sure you've done a representative study among your fellow citizens about the topic at hand and published it in a respectable, peer-reviewed journal, right? Oh you didn't? In that case I'm afraid I don't care where you live.

> In 2018, in the world's largest economy (depending on how you measure it, of course), you have children not getting enough to eat, not getting adequate education, and not having access to essential facilities and services that would enable them to live decent lives. And the best you can say is "we're getting there"?
This sort of moral outrage never fixed any real problem. So yes, we're getting there, faster than ever before in human history.

>And this does not even touch on places on this planet that are paralysed by seemingly perpetual war,
…which are getting fewer and fewer. The 20th century was actually the most peaceful century in human history, never before was the likelyhood of being killed in violent conflict so low. And things have gotten only more peaceful since the end of world war 2.

> famine,
Which is at an all-time low.

> disease,
Healthcare is getting better and better basically all over the world.

> But I suppose you're now going to deny the presenter and those children their experiences because it doesn't fit some broad-brush world-view you're selling.
It's fascinating how so-called progressives absolutely hate it when you point out to them that progress is actually being made.

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 18:32:47 +0000

> I don't know what the reasons for that are. But here's a question for you: why is it that black men are more successful than whites in track and field athletics?
Quite possibly because of biological reasons, for the same reason females are usually lighter and have less raw strength.

What does this have to do with IQ?

> Why do asians score higher in IQ tests than whites?
When corrected for socioeconomic status - they don't. The apparent difference is here because whites from poor families tend to underperform on IQ tests, while poor Asians still test average.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 18:09:37 +0000

> So the reason that black men are disproportionately higher represented in prisons than in the technology industry is also a matter of "biological predisposition" or "choice"?
I don't know what the reasons for that are. But here's a question for you: why is it that black men are more successful than whites in track and field athletics? Why do asians score higher in IQ tests than whites? It must be boatpeople privilege or something :-)

> You also say that no evidence that barriers exist has been presented,
I meant that I don't see significant barriers for women in programming. Sorry, I should have phrased that more clearly.

> so you don't consider having no computer or no internet a barrier to learning programming?
I just checked eBay and you can buy a used Laptop (1.6 GHz Core Duo, 2 GB RAM, 120 GB HDD) for 23 €, that's less than 3 hours' worth of work at minimum wage. So yeah, if you can't afford that, that is a barrier, no doubt about it. But let's be realistic about the number of people affected by this in developed countries: not that many.

Teaching Python to kids

pboddie — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 17:43:27 +0000

So where is your data to support that hypothesis?

I'm sorry, but I don't need to pander to your every demand. It was you who started off berating others for not providing evidence whilst not providing any of your own. I was merely providing a plausible explanation for a phenomenon, one that is considerably less lazy than "women don't really want to work with technology" which is basically what you are claiming.

Yet another claim without evidence.

Since I live in a Scandinavian country, read/watch the media coverage, go about my daily life talking to real people and experiencing real things, maybe I have something to say about your cherry-picking of employment statistics (with no source, though). Maybe the unavoidable coverage of discrimination and harassment has something to say about it, too.

Do you have any personal familiarity with any of the Scandinavian societies? Or are they merely good for the mining of third-hand demographic data and vague impressions of equality and "socialism"?

It's odd how people who claim to speak in favour of women somehow implicitly assume that women are some sort of robots who simply imitate what they see other women do rather than conscious agents capable of making their own choices.

Your assertion is actually offensive, but I am assuming that this is the intended effect. LWN really doesn't get any better for this kind of thing.

So again, how can you say this is not getting enough attention?

In 2018, in the world's largest economy (depending on how you measure it, of course), you have children not getting enough to eat, not getting adequate education, and not having access to essential facilities and services that would enable them to live decent lives. And the best you can say is "we're getting there"? It sounds like "wait your turn" to me, where "your turn" always seems to take a lower priority to tax cuts for the wealthy, colossal military spending, and a parade of other big-ticket items.

And this does not even touch on places on this planet that are paralysed by seemingly perpetual war, famine, disease, and all manner of misfortune, some of it caused by neglect, some of it by human malevolence. "We've never had it so good" is too easy a thing to say if you actually do have it rather good.

But I suppose you're now going to deny the presenter and those children their experiences because it doesn't fit some broad-brush world-view you're selling. Those UN reports will tell them what is real, for sure!

Teaching Python to kids

CycoJ — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:16:49 +0000

So the reason that black men are disproportionately higher represented in prisons than in the technology industry is also a matter of "biological predisposition" or "choice"?
You also say that no evidence that barriers exist has been presented, so you don't consider having no computer or no internet a barrier to learning programming? Not sure how you do your programming, speaking for myself I find it hard without a computer.

Teaching Python to kids

karkhaz — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 16:02:17 +0000

> Also you haven't answered my question: why are a majority of psychology graduates female?

Enable JavaScript and have a little play at this simulation, plugging in some different parameters.

https://ncase.me/polygons/

it should help to visualise how industries can become (and then remain) segregated, given even a slight predisposition to affiliate with members of your own group. This doesn't only apply to genders---could apply to any situation where you can partition humans into different groups, but the simulation only uses two groups.

To answer your question: let's suppose that industry I has historically been dominated by group G for reasons that were thought to be true in the past, but we "know better" than that nowadays and thus the various barriers for other group O to partake in the industry have recently been removed. Members of group O don't immediately flock to industry I precisely because most of them have a preference to having at least a few other Os in their environment. So a reason that you observe that Os do not enter industry I even when they have an equal opportunity to do so is because there are very few Os in I already. It's not because they have a predisposition against I.

And for an explanation of why it can be disproportionately (quadratically!) uncomfortable to be a member of a minority group, see the Petrie Multiplier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrie_multiplier
http://blog.ian.gent/2013/10/the-petrie-multiplier-why-at...

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 14:38:40 +0000

> So maybe it is the lack of localised discrimination in the professions you assert are favoured by men that actually enables them to pursue those professions, despite wider societal discrimination.
So where is your data to support that hypothesis? Because otherwise I'm going to go with the null hypothesis, which is the correct thing to do in science.

> Meanwhile, technology in Scandinavia is still presented as a male-oriented, male-focused industry, despite the occasional high-profile female executive.
Yet another claim without evidence. And besides, it is so vague a claim that I wouldn't even know what would constitute evidence.

> It is worth noting that in my time in moderately-large-company consulting the gender balance was closer to normal, but I have also experienced more technology-focused environments that were 100% male. Could it be that women get the impression that technology, as opposed to the broader business-related nature of consulting even in the technological realm, is "not for them"?
It's odd how people who claim to speak in favour of women somehow implicitly assume that women are some sort of robots who simply imitate what they see other women do rather than conscious agents capable of making their own choices.

> I am not "expecting" anything other than people having the means to pursue an acceptable range of opportunities in life.
Sure, that would be ideal, and we're not there yet, so how fast do you expect the world to get there? These things don't happen overnight, and the world is moving faster toward that goal than it ever did in human history. So again, how can you say this is not getting enough attention? Because clearly a lot of people are working to fix this, otherwise we wouldn't see the improvements that we are in fact observing.

> UN metrics can be rather divorced from this "expectation" because they might stipulate some general income threshold (somewhat adjusted for local prices, maybe) that fails to respect actual living conditions whilst permitting governments and institutions to conveniently consider poverty issues as having been "solved".
Oh, so you're saying it's all fake news? Well, I disagree with that. UN reports about this sort of thing are largely trustworthy.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 12:53:02 +0000

> Given that female discrimination used to be pretty much universal, there's no wonder.
So how come women were able to overcome discrimination in fields like psychology, medicine etc., but not in engineering? To make that work with the “discrimination hypothesis”, you'd have to show that there is more sexism among engineers than e. g. psychologists. While that's not impossible, it's yet another deviation from the null hypothesis and therefore requires evidence to support it.

Also you haven't answered my question: why are a majority of psychology graduates female? Is that also the result of discrimination? And why are garbage collectors all male? Discrimination?

Teaching Python to kids

pboddie — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 11:19:58 +0000

Yet that doesn't seem to be the case, in fact we observe the opposite: more discriminatory countries tend to have more women in STEM fields.

Certainly, discrimination in other fields could be driving women into science/technology/engineering in those countries. However, I somehow doubt that they are being excluded from professions you assert are favoured by women, such as nursing, medicine, and so on. So maybe it is the lack of localised discrimination in the professions you assert are favoured by men that actually enables them to pursue those professions, despite wider societal discrimination.

Meanwhile, technology in Scandinavia is still presented as a male-oriented, male-focused industry, despite the occasional high-profile female executive. Things like encouraging gender equality at the board level of companies - initiatives you presumably referred to earlier - do practically nothing to influence choices made by children that set up their career paths.

It is worth noting that in my time in moderately-large-company consulting the gender balance was closer to normal, but I have also experienced more technology-focused environments that were 100% male. Could it be that women get the impression that technology, as opposed to the broader business-related nature of consulting even in the technological realm, is "not for them"? Probable answer: yes.

In 1990, the UN set a goal to reduce the abject poverty rate by 50% over the next 25 years. That goal was reached 5 years early and poverty rates continue to fall to this day and are lower today than they've ever been over the course of human history. So what exactly are you expecting? Humanity is actually doing pretty well, you know.

I am not "expecting" anything other than people having the means to pursue an acceptable range of opportunities in life. UN metrics can be rather divorced from this "expectation" because they might stipulate some general income threshold (somewhat adjusted for local prices, maybe) that fails to respect actual living conditions whilst permitting governments and institutions to conveniently consider poverty issues as having been "solved".

How "well" are the children mentioned in the article doing without access to technology that many now take for granted? The US is a wealthy country after all. Although there was apparently a squabble between the US administration and the UN about some wealth inequality report fairly recently. Maybe that has something to do with it.

I won't dignify your appeal to consider Venezuela since it happens to be the "go to" strawman to demonise anyone advocating social mobility and a fairer society where they happen to live (which is typically not Venezuela).

Teaching Python to kids

nix — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:08:05 +0000

This is fabulous stuff, but I note one thing that doesn't actually follow, although a great many people (including educators) think it does:

she needs to backtrack to make sure they can read properly. She had a nine-year-old come to her for help the week before her talk; in the process of helping him, she realized he couldn't read. She suggested that he use his last name as part of a username, but he did not know how to spell it.

Weirdly, these are distinct skills. It is quite possible from that evidence that he could read, but couldn't spell at all. You can learn one skill without learning the other, though this is rare (and probably more common in conjunction with dyslexia, etc, but that's in part because that is one of the diagnostic criteria for dyslexia!)

When I was six, I was reading the New Scientist and understanding most of it. I couldn't spell the word 'and' and had trouble with 'I'.

(Of course, it's all irrelevant to this article, since you definitely need to know how to both read and spell in order to have a hope writing Python, or, really, to have a hope of getting any employment at all.)

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 10:03:42 +0000

> If you want more extreme example - look at the number of females in armies. Not long ago it was vanishingly small, yet now it's growing.
It's funny that you mention armies, because that's one of the few remaining places where there is _actual_ discrimination. I was drafted and have lost nine months of my life to that.
Anyway, it's kinda obvious why men would enroll in the army and women wouldn't: men are less agreeable than women. This is why the prison population is overwhelmingly male. But then, it might also be because patriarchy :-)

> And it needs to be explained, it's meaningless in isolation without controls for other factors (like wealth).
You can discredit _any_ social science result by saying “but it doesn't correct for $FOO”, that's a trivial consequence of the fact that there's an infinite number of variables that the author of a study hasn't corrected for. My answer to that is that if you claim that correcting for $FOO actually makes a difference, you'd better provide data to support that, because otherwise the right thing to do is to ignore that objection.

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 07:29:06 +0000

> – this is a cross-cultural phenomenon and thus difficult to explain with only cultural factors
Given that female discrimination used to be pretty much universal, there's no wonder.

If you want more extreme example - look at the number of females in armies. Not long ago it was vanishingly small, yet now it's growing.

> – the differences in male/female job choices get _larger_ in countries with less discrimination
And it needs to be explained, it's meaningless in isolation without controls for other factors (like wealth).

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 06:49:13 +0000

> And as we all know, interests are totally unaffected by discrimination (perceived or real).
This would be a much more interesting discussion if you would actually respond to my points, which are:
– this is a cross-cultural phenomenon and thus difficult to explain with only cultural factors
– the differences in male/female job choices get _larger_ in countries with less discrimination

Oh, and how do you explain that > 70% of e. g. psychology graduates are female? Is that also discrimination?

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Fri, 06 Jul 2018 00:02:40 +0000

> I said that the gender disbalance in programming is likely the result of women's interests (or lack thereof) rather than discrimination
And as we all know, interests are totally unaffected by discrimination (perceived or real).

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 23:00:04 +0000

> It quite definitively doesn't prove that there's a causal biological connection between gender and preferences in most of areas.
I said that the gender disbalance in programming is likely the result of women's interests (or lack thereof) rather than discrimination, and that is what I've provided evidence for. I didn't say anything about the reasons why women exhibit those preferences, biological or otherwise.

There are reasons to think there are biological reasons though. Again, scandinavian countries did more than any other society to eliminate gender discrimination, and the result is that the male/female ratio for engineers _increased_. And if you assume the reasons are biological in nature, that makes perfect sense. The more free people are to make their own choices without society influencing them, the more likely it is that some biological predisposition they might have will be able to manifest itself.
Also, women being more interested in people and men being more interested in things seems to be a cross-cultural phenomenon. If you want to blame something like that on society, you have some explaining to do.

Teaching Python to kids

Cyberax — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 22:21:31 +0000

> This sort of thing can easily be found on Google (or Sci-Hub). Here's one example of many:
It's simply a collection of data stating the preferences in the current socioeconomic situation. Nothing more.

It quite definitively doesn't prove that there's a causal biological connection between gender and preferences in most of areas.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 20:26:31 +0000

> Evidence that is too copious to fit into the margin of this page, I suppose.
This sort of thing can easily be found on Google (or Sci-Hub). Here's one example of many:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47af/4a7e87267aba681fb69...

> Every country has structural social and economic challenges despite what its own made-for-export messaging might indicate. Endemic sexism and discrimination is as real a problem in Scandinavian societies as it is in other places, although I'm sure people can dispute the severity relative to other places on the planet.
You don't need eliminate discrimination to disprove the hypothesis that discrimination is responsible for differences in male and female job choices. Assuming that the hypothesis is true and that discrimination is lower (not zero!) in scandinavian countries, one would have to observe a smaller difference in job choices than elsewhere in the world. Yet that doesn't seem to be the case, in fact we observe the opposite: more discriminatory countries tend to have more women in STEM fields.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323197652_The_Ge...

> Personally, I found the remarks about poverty rather saddening. There are numerous benefits in bringing people out of poverty for both themselves and for wider society, but since political capital in various societies tends to be made by blaming poverty on the poor so as to legitimise ignoring them (yes, this callousness also infects Scandinavia), it is a topic that gets far less attention than it deserves.
In 1990, the UN set a goal to reduce the abject poverty rate by 50% over the next 25 years. That goal was reached 5 years early and poverty rates continue to fall to this day and are lower today than they've ever been over the course of human history. So what exactly are you expecting? Humanity is actually doing pretty well, you know.
Oh, except of course in places where they tried to make everybody the same. Try asking some Venezuelans how they feel about that idea.

Teaching Python to kids

pboddie — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 15:37:25 +0000

That implies that the are such barriers, and you haven't presented evidence for that. OTOH there is considerable evidence that women don't go into tech because they're simply less interested in that sort of thing.

Evidence that is too copious to fit into the margin of this page, I suppose.

In fact, scandinavian countries have done more than any other society to achieve equity between men and women

And that would be more than what, exactly? Every country has structural social and economic challenges despite what its own made-for-export messaging might indicate. Endemic sexism and discrimination is as real a problem in Scandinavian societies as it is in other places, although I'm sure people can dispute the severity relative to other places on the planet. I am sorry if you never heard about it and didn't realise it was an issue, however.

Personally, I found the remarks about poverty rather saddening. There are numerous benefits in bringing people out of poverty for both themselves and for wider society, but since political capital in various societies tends to be made by blaming poverty on the poor so as to legitimise ignoring them (yes, this callousness also infects Scandinavia), it is a topic that gets far less attention than it deserves.

Teaching Python to kids

HelloWorld — Thu, 05 Jul 2018 07:03:26 +0000

That implies that the are such barriers, and you haven't presented evidence for that. OTOH there is considerable evidence that women don't go into tech because they're simply less interested in that sort of thing. In fact, scandinavian countries have done more than any other society to achieve equity between men and women, yet 90% of norwegian nurses are female and 90% of norwegian engineers are male. To me that shows that job choices have very little to do with any hypothetical ”barriers“ for women these days.

Teaching Python to kids

sml — Thu, 28 Jun 2018 11:26:37 +0000

This is fantastic. Great work!