LWN: Comments on "Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)"

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Jonno — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 16:25:27 +0000

> I quote "countries" because the U.K. is considered one country on the world stage and Scotland is gearing up for a referendum on independence. They're not countries by the the vernacular definition.

Well, for most of the world they are, it is just American English (and to a lesser extent Canadian English) that reversed the meanings of "state" and "country" after thirteen former colonies continued to refer to themselves as states even after voluntarily giving up statehood in 1789.

England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are no longer independent states, just like the thirteen former colonies in central North America are no longer independent states, but they are all still separate countries.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

k8to — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 05:47:41 +0000

Are the stats actually weird by orientation?

I'm sort of surprised about that. I hadn't seen numbers about that, and there's always the problem that counting sexual minorities (maybe an awkward term? -- I'm a member) is usually so politicized and hard to trust.

I dunno, I guess I'm biased because I got asked out by another gay man at a Linux conference. My perception might be skewed.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

ssokolow — Sun, 06 Jul 2014 09:47:44 +0000

I think the idea is that people are contrasting "American" and "Commonwealth" English and referring to the latter as "British English" because it was spread by the "British Empire".

...and, to be honest, "British English" isn't THAT inaccurate a name. It's the form of English used by people on the isle of Great Britain when they choose to speak it. (And three of the four "countries" in the U.K. fit that definition.)

(I quote "countries" because the U.K. is considered one country on the world stage and Scotland is gearing up for a referendum on independence. They're not countries by the the vernacular definition.)

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

peter-b — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 20:01:20 +0000

Yes, that was the joke...

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

alonz — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 19:26:05 +0000

Nah. Usaians are a cult/religion in Sarah Hoyt's sci-fi books.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

mpr22 — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 12:33:07 +0000

Well, if you don't mind writing off your ability to visit the part of the country east of the Rockies and south of Pennsylvania, you could call them Yankees.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

peter-b — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 12:09:33 +0000

So should I call citizens of the USA as "Usaians"?

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

dgm — Wed, 02 Jul 2014 09:30:04 +0000

> You have to remember that Britain is NOT a homogenous whole
...
> why is it the Americans ignore that convention both for themselves, and us!

You should too. I cringe every time someone (often themselves) refers to citizens of the U.S. of A. as "Americans". Mexico, Brazil, Ecuador, Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina... where do you think those countries are? It drives me nuts.

You see, everyone has pet peeves.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Wol — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 12:07:30 +0000

> I like how you use "American English" then proceed to call British English "English" :)

EXCEPT THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS "BRITISH ENGLISH" !!!

It's like calling Spanish "Mexican English". You have to remember that Britain is NOT a homogenous whole (it's made up of four different countries, for fscking sake! each of which is subdivided!)

As I like to put it, "the Saxons speak English, the Angles speak Scots, and the Scots speak Gaelic".

English and Scots are approximately the same thing (both of Germanic descent). But Gaelic (along with Cornish, British (or Bretonish, or Welsh), and other languages) predates the arrival of English.

Plus the fact, it's extremely infuriating that while for most nations, the country and the language share the same name, why is it the Americans ignore that convention both for themselves, and us!

I am English, goddammit, and I speak ENGLISH, not BRITISH.

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Wol — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 12:00:05 +0000

> Nope, not a steamroller (they're the same here: machine which rides on two large drums you can fill with water to flatten/compress surfaces).

Except, in English, that is NOT a steamroller. I don't know what's that's called in English, I've never met one.

A steamroller was a steam engine with a cast-iron barrel as its front wheel and two huge cast-iron rear wheels. The name comes from the fact it was powered by steam (replace the front barrel and rear wheels with lighter wheels and it's known as a traction engine). Modern ones are, I suspect, diesel powered but I don't think they've changed much in appearance.

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

peter-b — Tue, 01 Jul 2014 08:24:50 +0000

In the UK:

Where I live, the "pavement" is the colloquial name for what's called the "footway" in official documents.

"The pavement is paved with paving stones."

"The road is paved with tarmac."

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

mathstuf — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 14:50:36 +0000

I imagine the difference comes from the British using "paver" stones for sidewalks whereas that's a rare thing here (usually they're bricks when concrete isn't used for sidewalks) and America calling it based on the "paver" machine which lays roads. And they're certainly not referred to often here either; just one of the random fact bubbles I'm familiar with :) .

BTW, there's another difference: "tarmac", to me, is only referred to as such at airports.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

nye — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 14:17:18 +0000

No idea. I don't think that's something that's referred to frequently enough to be in most people's vocabulary. I'd probably call it 'one of those tarmac laying things' :-). It might be called a 'paver' here technically, although I'd be a little surprised as paving usually implies bricks or slabs or suchlike.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

mathstuf — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 14:12:01 +0000

Nope, not a steamroller (they're the same here: machine which rides on two large drums you can fill with water to flatten/compress surfaces). This[1] is a paver. It lays the asphalt down in the first place.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paver_(vehicle)

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

nye — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 14:01:28 +0000

>In England, are the machines which flatten out fresh roads during construction called "pavers"?

Assuming I'm picturing the same thing as you, they are called 'steamrollers', though it would not surprise me if steam has not been involved for a century or more.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

mathstuf — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 13:32:39 +0000

I like how you use "American English" then proceed to call British English "English" :) . Also, as a (northeastern) American, "pavement" is not used to refer to either normally. I think the only idiomatic ways I use it are when referring to certain parts of road construction (though I think I'd usually use "asphalt" here) or in the "hit the pavement" idiom which is not common for me either (and more likely to be "hit the road"…unless walking is involved). Even those are suspect since "pavement" is not a common term around here.

In England, are the machines which flatten out fresh roads during construction called "pavers"? I don't think those machines are used during sidewalk construction (here at least). Though in looking for a picture of one, I see lots of bricks, so I guess that's where the British term comes from.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

nye — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 11:12:50 +0000

>Translated into English, pavement == roadway

Huh, I did not know that.

Most of the books I read, most of the TV and film I watch, most of what I read on the web, was written by Americans. I feel like I have about as good a grasp of American English as anyone who hasn't actually lived there for years, and yet fairly often I still discover that there are words that I didn't realise meant something (subtly or completely) different there because every time I've come across them, the English meaning has worked in context, giving me no reason to believe I've got the wrong end of the stick.

That's a fairly good example actually, because everyone knows that 'sidewalk' is American for 'pavement', but the natural assumption is that the English word *also* means the same thing, but is not idiomatic - like Americans say 'fall', but 'autumn' means the same thing. They might not generally use the word, but they'd know the meaning.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

mjg59 — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 17:42:22 +0000

Sponsorship isn't fungible, and nor is motivation. There's no reason to believe that the money donated for OPW would have been donated for arbitrary developer funding, or that people who've spent time dealing with OPW logistics would have been willing to do the same.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

tzafrir — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 08:20:13 +0000

Just a note regarding "adding opportunities": the resources spent on adding those opportunities (specifically: the OPW programs) don't come free. This is money and time that could have been spent elsewhere. For instance (in the context of other threads): funding travels of some contributors to GUADEC and/or FOSDEM.

That is not to say that those programs are not useful.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Wol — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 11:57:48 +0000

The classic example I like is the story about Churchill and Roosevelt on a battleship in the Atlantic. Someone had a good idea, and Churchill's immediate reaction was to say "let's table it".

Roosevelt was horrified.

Because the phrase has completely opposite meanings in English and American.

Or what about the popular English bumper-sticker - "Keep death off the roads. Drive on the pavement". Unless an American happens to know, the joke will completely pass him by (hint, translated into American, pavement == sidewalk. Translated into English, pavement == roadway).

And that's two peoples who supposedly speak the same - "The English and the Americans are two peoples divided by a common language" :-)

Add to that, the English-speaking peoples are usually mono-lingual and thus incapable of understanding cultural differences/difficulties ...

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

NAR — Thu, 26 Jun 2014 09:57:26 +0000

And actually it is not just an accent-problem. For example locally when I have to spell a word (especially over phone), I use first names because this is the local convention. Internationally I use the NATO alphabet, because that seems to be understandable, at least by western people. However, I've just overheard a colleague complaining that when he started to spell his userid to a far-eastern support guy over the phone, the support guy asked back "what is echo?". He didn't even seem to understand the concept of spelling - which might be expected if his mother tongue uses a logographic writing system, but still leads to quite much frustration.

It's not just phone conversations - I remember a case when four of us tried to decipher an e-mail written in (supposedly) English. Couldn't even ask clarifying questions, because so little was understandable. And of course there are true cultural differences: mentoring some far-eastern people can be first seen very rewarding, they always answer "Yes" to the "Did you understand?" question - then when they start to work on their own it turns out they didn't understand a word.

Sometimes I just want to get the job done and not wrestle with cultural differences.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

Wol — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 21:12:57 +0000

Sounds like call-centres out-sourced to India.

Yep, I take your point, but it's a major obstacle to inclusivity when the cultural norms diverge so much that meaningful communication is difficult.

It's bad enough when someone local to you doesn't understand you because they're from a different background, but when you've got several thousand miles both literally and culturally between you, it's a major problem.

Cheers,
Wol

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

marcH — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 12:35:36 +0000

> Efforts to fix the latter have nothing in common with affirmative action programs. Outreach programs, educational initiatives, and other such efforts to improve inclusiveness and diversity in FOSS are entirely positive programs, adding new opportunities for participation, not doing anything to affect existing opportunities.

The social/individual conflict that affirmative action creates always makes me uncomfortable and dubious. So this comment helps greatly, thanks! Worth repeating on a regular basis.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

ovitters — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 10:36:24 +0000

Regarding defensive it a response to:
> a problem about too many white males in the 20s and 30s in the conferences
Having a lot of white males is not the issue.

If attending conferences is not nice, then cut back? Regarding food: FOSDEM food is quite nice (french bread). I prefer healthy stuff and usually do not have any issues. They also have a lot of unhealthy stuff, but there are healthy options available. Usually it is just about lunch, the rest you can directly impact (breakfast at hotel/hostel, dinner wherever you want).

I find conferences quite enjoyable.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

fandom — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 10:26:25 +0000

Defensive? I am getting defensive?

You would also get defensive if it were you dying in your 30s because of the stress of attending conferences plus the junk food they serve there.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

ovitters — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 08:00:17 +0000

It has hugely improved over the last few years, but before that it was really bad. I used to show FOSDEM pictures to colleagues and described that there were thousands of nerds pretty much like you saw in movies.

Always funny to see their reaction to such a statement. And their reaction again when I show pictures :-P

It is still hugely different composition than the general population around Brussels (and I mean 100km around). I think all the focus over the various years has helped a lot, but we're still far off from where we should be.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

ovitters — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 07:53:52 +0000

It is not about having too many white males, it is about only having white males. It is not about preventing white males coming there.

Really, don't get so defensive.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

pbonzini — Wed, 25 Jun 2014 05:56:36 +0000

Diversity in the free software world sucks, I even wrote it didn't I? But a single group photo isn't a valid data point.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

halla — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 18:12:35 +0000

Um... When did you last walk on the street in Brussels? Because the ethnic composition on the streets of Brussels is miles more diverse than that at Fosdem. To say nothing of the gender composition of Brussels compared to Fosdem. And a whole bunch of attendees actually come flying over from other continents for Fosdem, too.

In any case, this thread is disgusting. A female free software contributor says that free software would be better off if its contributor composition would be a bit more diverse? Of course all us poor oppresed white close-to-middle-age males have to defend themselves against this attack upon them!

Get real. Diversity in the free software world sucks by all objective metrics, whether it's about gender, ethnicity or sexual orientation. Just do the maths, instead of the emotions or the excuses.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

zlynx — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:24:57 +0000

Pretty sure I saw quite a few Asian and Latino faces in those pictures. Just because they tend to look "white" at first glace does that disqualify them from being diverse? Several might be Middle Eastern, it's hard to tell. Saw a couple Orthodox Jews in the pictures too (the yarmulkes give them away), do they count as Middle Eastern or European.

So sure, most everybody in the pictures is "white."

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

pbonzini — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 17:10:10 +0000

FOSDEM is in Europe and only lasts a weekend, so you are not going to find many non-white people just like you will not find them on the street. You will also find a younger audience than at other conferences.

That said, the gender imbalance is well-known and the faces at LinuxCon North America probably would not look that different.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

fandom — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:42:31 +0000

In that case we need to drop everything else and start researching why white male developers are dying off before their forties.

It may be because all these conferences they are attending, in which case we need to start vetoing them.

And then, there would no longer be a problem about too many white males in the 20s and 30s in the conferences.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

pj — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 14:21:40 +0000

Note that conference attendance != online participation, and in particular, conference attendance is self-selecting for people with the free time, money, and situation to allow them travel and the like.

Also, online participation is gated on having tools and access, and while hardware and 'net access are getting cheaper all the time, neither is yet quite free, nor globally available.

Thirdly, if you hold a conference in a predominantly white area, don't be surprised if attendees are predominantly white. I suspect the demographics are quite different at FOSS.IN, FOSScon, and LinuxCon Japan.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

mathstuf — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:32:56 +0000

Sounds like there's some cause and effect mixing here. Saying there are communication problems because you can't communicate that there might be problems feels tautological.

Normal != Good

tialaramex — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:10:08 +0000

It _is_ normal that people seek out others who are superficially like them. It's why you'll see that even without any deliberate policy like red-lining most people from a particular ethnic group will often live in particular districts or even on particular streets in a city and not evenly spread throughout the city.

However, just because something is _normal_ does not automatically mean it's a good idea. It was _normal_ for a while for adult male Americans to smoke cigarettes and the choice of a _normal_ square shape for windows in one early model of aeroplane lead to a serious accident. Normal isn't inherently good or bad, just... normal.

We can change what is normal, through our own words and actions.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

NAR — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:42:25 +0000

I wonder - if people are doing something (e.g. software development) for fun, isn't it normal that they want to do it with people like themselves who share the same ideas, cultural background, etc.?

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

niner — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:30:44 +0000

Oh wonder, at one of the very few African free software conferences, you can find Africans.

Take a look at one of the largest free software conferences in the world:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fosdem+group+photo&pr...

White, male, 20s and 30s? Yep, plenty of them.

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

fandom — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:59:51 +0000

Really?

Free Software Is Not Diverse!?

misc — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:44:56 +0000

I guess I need then to go to different events, cause for a diverse community, we seems to all look alike each time I look and do some stats. But I guess that's just that free software events are different from a concert or from anything outside, and that this is normal to have only white male in their 20/30.

Steps to diversity in your open source group (Opensource.com)

NAR — Tue, 24 Jun 2014 08:29:22 +0000

I'm not that sure. Diversity also leads to communication problems, misunderstandings. If you've ever been to a meeting where you can't tell the other person "I don't understand", because he doesn't even understand what I don't understand, then you know what I mean. This all leads to more problems, not to solving problems.