LWN: Comments on "Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO"

Focus on informative posts?

gmatht — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 06:52:24 +0000

I am not sure why you think I would call you an "awful misogynist" given that my post was in favor of carefully chosen language over name calling. I would be more likely to challenge your assumption that women and brought "politics" into the open source movement. The correct term is "GNU/politics" :P.

Why do you state that "Gnome 3" has to do with non-techincal people on the committee? AFAICT Pretty much every Open Source project has the problem that once software is stable enough to "just work" maintaining it isn't as fun as working on the new shiny version n+1.

A sad outcome

dlang — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:56:42 +0000

California didn't use to recognize civil unions, but there was far less opposition to adding civil unions than there was to redefining "Marriage"

A sad outcome

bronson — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 19:58:50 +0000

Because, at the time, the federal government only recognized "marriage" benefits. Not civil unions.

So, until either the Federal government started recognizing civil unions, or California allowed same-sex marriage, a civil union wasn't equivalent.

If I understand correctly of course. It's pretty complex and has changed quite a bit (for the better!) in the past few years.

A sad outcome

dlang — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 19:30:58 +0000

California already had civil unions at the time of prop 8, they weren't considered good enough for the same-sex marriage advocates

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

man_ls — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 17:47:46 +0000

Sure: as your quote reveals, civilized societies are in a constant state of experimentation without knowing the consequences. That is because we try to improve every day how we do things, and there is no other way than to try new things (and there is no way to know the consequences). It is quite revealing that such an experimentation would amaze Mr Putin.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

man_ls — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 17:36:46 +0000

Integrity is not always good. When your beliefs are despicable, integrity is itself despicable.

Nobody would blame an ex-KKK or ex-nazi for renouncing their evil beliefs. Likewise, I don't agree with his position on gay marriage, and therefore a full recantation would be most commendable.

A sad outcome

mathstuf — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 06:27:01 +0000

The ones linked by blujay are from England where civil unions (seem to) already carry all the legal benefits that marriage also brings. In that case, "marriage" is purely religious and the state only really cares about civil unions. Opposing *marriage* equality in that context is fine, but I don't think such a path is as likely in America.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

dlang — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 00:03:54 +0000

> Let's not forget this thing actually won democratically, in California no less! and had to be shot down by the courts.

not to mention the _way_ it was shot down in court, by getting the courts to rule that nobody was allowed to speak in favour of the bill when the state government decided they didn't like it (and they were opposed to it in the first place, Propositions like Prop 8 are a way for the voters of the state to go around the state government)

This is part of what was referred to in the dissent about cheating the winners of a fair victory and the losers of a fair defeat

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

dlang — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 00:00:48 +0000

agreed, but those are not the vehicle safety regulations we were talking about.

and in far too many cases, things have been shut down by people who knew they were there when they moved in, and then started complaining about it. Not just race tracks, but many other businesses.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

dlang — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 23:58:35 +0000

> and publicized by theft of the list of campaign contributors

no, it was not publicized due to any theft. The list of contributers is required to be public. People noticed his name on the list a few years ago, so it wasn't brand new news after he was appointed CEO either.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

Arker — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 20:47:09 +0000

"If, as you say, the whole point of marriage is to provide for children, why should it be that a straight couple with no intention of having children, maybe even no possibility of having children, should be able to get married, but a gay couple with a child should not?"

That's a loophole that some people consciously exploit, btw. Both heterosexual couples that simply loathe children and use birth control as their religion, and also gay people that marry opposite gendered 'partners' with whom they actually practice only a (non-euphemistic) civil union. Either way, the state gives you some 'free stuff' if you will at least make a little effort to pretend to be a breeder.

I think that rather than simply trying to expand the program to be more fair by also doling the stuff out to one additional class of people, we might think about just ending the program.

If not, then let's ask a few more questions. Would you actually be satisfied with a law that only allowed gay marriage for couples that were actually adopting children and raising them, and tightened up the loopholes to exclude hetero-sexual non-breeders? Or is that really something of a straw man that in reality no one would accept?

Also, if a gay couple who adopt children and provide for them properly should be able to call themselves 'married' then why not a traditionalist Mormon household with multiple wives? Why not polyamories and line marriages?

Also, if a gay couple who do NOT want to provide for children still should be entitled to their free stuff, then why not non-euphemistic civil unions? Quite a few brother and sister non-breeders that grow old together and take care of each other, but they dont have even have the option of a sham marriage since they are close kin, why shouldnt they get their 'free stuff' too?

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

Arker — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 20:22:19 +0000

"If people won't work on the project because Eich is there, then Eich needs to go. It doesn't matter if they're justified or not. "

Hope you are never put in a leadership position of any sort. This screams 'toxic boss.'

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

Arker — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 20:12:55 +0000

"He suffered the fallout from an ill-considered move, that's all. "

Not buying it. Not 6 years later.

There was no fallout until he was promoted to a very prominent position. And then he was taken out ultra-publicly. That does not sound like spontaneous fallout for his position, that sounds to me like there was some sort of organized plan to make an example of him.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

Arker — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 19:56:41 +0000

Exactly!

I do not think the activists who are celebrating their victory here have really thought it through. If they can effectively make Eich unviable in SF in this fashion, then their opponents can do the same with anyone that donated to their side through most of the State, and most of the US for that matter. Let's not forget this thing actually won democratically, in California no less! and had to be shot down by the courts.

I have seen no evidence that Eich injected this opinion in the workplace in any way and if that is true then this was a very poorly chosen fight and a "victory" of Pyrrhus' type. Whether the other side actually adopts the tactic or simply uses this to prove the common suspicion that 'they dont want equality they want superiority' and galvanize their base, it will backfire.

A sad outcome

nix — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:51:47 +0000

Ah, so now the law defines what is right, while elsewhere, what is right defines what should be the law? A curious position.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

mathstuf — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:19:05 +0000

There are also land use laws, nuisance ordinances (usually triggered by noise or dust clouds), and other things that personal race tracks are required to abide by. There have been tracks closed due to these things.

Continuing OT:

nybble41 — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 15:59:17 +0000

> If there are no background checks, how do we know those purchasing guns are law-abiding?

The standard in the U.S.A. is that you have to prove guilt. If no one has managed to prove that they're breaking the law, they're presumed to be law-abiding. We don't require anyone to prove their innocence before they can exercise their rights.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

nix — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 15:48:53 +0000

"We won't be led by you" equals a call for someone's head, it seems.

Employment in the US is even more vicious than I thought it was.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

bluefoxicy — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 14:59:19 +0000

You know, that brings up a hilarious thought.

What if Mozilla Inc. just escalated?

I mean, what if they put a blacklist on OKCupid, updated the browsers everywhere, and when you land on OKCupid it gives you a message for the session that says:

> OKCupid has chosen to publicly criticize Mozilla Inc's newly-appointed CEO over a political campaign donation of $1000 made in secret in 2006 and publicized by theft of the list of campaign contributors. Despite OKCupid's CEO having openly supported congressional candidates who oppose same-sex marriage, bans on sexual-orientation-based job discrimination, and adoption by homosexual couples, OKCupid has accused Mozilla Inc. of implied discrimination against the rights of others.
>
> OKCupid has requested that Mozilla, Inc. products not be used to access OKCupid's Web content; however, they have issued no legally-binding orders, nor do they have such standing to do so. However, in order to honor the wishes of the operators of OKCupid, Mozilla Inc. encourages you to close this window and go somewhere else. Otherwise, [Continue] and this message will not appear again during this session.

I mean, this was a poor bluff. Call. I know we have all kinds of funny ideas on what is "Civil", but passive aggression is fair game when you're attacked publicly. They could even leave out the accusations about OKCupid's CEO, refusing to capitulate on their level and instead taking the higher ground entirely.

I don't believe it would have been inappropriate to retaliate in this manner. I also feel it would have provided a better resolution, and also provided more entertainment.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

nix — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 12:34:57 +0000

I cannot imagine why you would consider this a bad thing. Do I want people in a crowded city to have access to lethal weapons while on drugs that impair their judgement (or, hell, physical coordination)? No!

I also don't want them to drive cars in that situation, and indeed in the UK at least being on particular drugs *can* lead to the suspension of your driver's license until you're off them again (heck, I was told that if I got a driver's license it would be invalid between May and September because of my hay fever!)

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

nix — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 12:30:50 +0000

Marriage is to provide a stable home environment for raising children, is it? You're strongly implying "and it has no other purpose", or one of those other purposes would be a perfectly valid reason for homosexual couples to get married.

Unfortunately, it clearly *does* have another purpose, unless you're saying that barrenness should still be grounds for unilateral divorce, or that couples who just choose never to have children should be prohibited from marriage? Oh, and what about my parents? They're not having any more children, not at their age, and their children grew up and left home decades ago. If marriage served no purpose other than to provide a stable home environment for raising children, surely they should not be allowed to be married anymore. (Or is it different if you're *already* married? Why? That surely makes no sense either.)

I could have guessed purely from this sort of easily defeated excuse for an 'argument' that you were a Christian, because nobody in the UK other than people who listen to various extremist Christian pressure groups tries to make such ludicrous arguments, and there's no way any of them can have thought about that argument before making it, or its huge logical holes would have become immediately apparent. No, I'm fairly sure you were honest at the end there: the real reason you're against gay marriage -- the real reason you want to deprive people of tax benefits because of the gender of their loved ones -- is because your holy book disagrees with it, whether or not the people whose rights you are seeking to restrict agree with you (I'm fairly sure they don't). And that is ethically wrong.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" surely applies here. Unless you want people deploying specious arguments for why *your* rights should be restricted in ways theirs are not, stop trying to do the same to them.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

nix — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 12:22:46 +0000

Oh God you're citing the Daily Mail in support of an argument? Do you know just what that magazine's[1] reputation is like in the UK? It's not quite as bad as citing the Westboro Baptist Church, but it's on a pretty similar level.

[1] I refuse to call it a newspaper: newspapers have some attachment to objective reporting and the truth, while the Mail's editor is on record as stating that he doesn't care if what he reports is true: his reporters make things up all the time, on an industrial scale

Continuing OT:

Max.Hyre — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 12:06:25 +0000

how dare you tell me, a law abiding citizen [....]

Just one question: If there are no background checks, how do we know those purchasing guns are law-abiding?

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

nix — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 10:23:53 +0000

No matter what they were, he had become politically toxic by virtue of expressing opinions (and backing them financially!) that were repugnant to many of his employees *and to the volunteers he must not drive away*.

I can assure you that much the same thing can and has happened routinely to other people in similar positions -- though if you're a CEO you generally have to screw the wrong person to get kicked out like this: merely holding repulsive views and acting on them does not generally torpedo your career unless you're running a charity or other organization dependent on volunteer labour.

But I don't consider *that* to be a negative on Mozilla's part -- more a negative of other corporations, which is essentially saying "we can be as horrible or politically toxic as we like, our shareholders are so uncaring that as long as we make a profit / produce a dividend they'll keep on holding our shares'. And even there, there are examples of PR shitstorms brewing up, advertisers cancelling, shareholders selling, and abruptly cutting short the career of the company's CEO.

This is not in the least unusual.

A sad outcome

ncm — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:35:36 +0000

I understand your disgust, and have not noticed contempt for anybody in your own postings. I too am confused by churn in terminology, but bigotry among law-enforcment and border-control personnel seems pretty stably focussed on people with brown skin. It leaves the question of how to refer to people not so targetted.

The quote from Bladerunner seems apt: "You're not cop, you're little people." So that's the real distinction, and to bring up race is splitting hairs.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

motk — Thu, 10 Apr 2014 01:46:18 +0000

The point is sailing over your head.

OK, ejecting from this futile thread. Dunning-Krugeroid bigots are a waste of time.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

motk — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 23:41:26 +0000

Not trolling at all. There is no difference between grumbling about free speech issues with regards to offensive bigotry towards non-hetero people and offensive bigotry regarding non-white people.

If you want to have a scholarly, collegial discourse that certain people should have the right to lobby for the oppression of certain other people you may be on a hiding to nothing here.

Focus on informative posts?

motk — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 23:38:32 +0000

If people are acting in destructive, irrational ways, it's probably time to call a spade a spade.

Not sure where you got 'PR girls' from.

Focus on informative posts?

piotrjurkiewicz — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 20:00:22 +0000

I used the example of Gnome to illustrate how destructive (think Gnome 3) can be non-technical and overly politicized leadership for OSS. Isn't this a logical argument? If I had written "non-technical managers and PR guys", you would have written that I am "awful misogynist", as I purposely ignore their involvement in governance (about a half of Gnome Foundation board members are women). Wouldn't you? :)

A sad outcome

blujay — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:48:04 +0000

No, an example of an NTS fallacy in this context would be to say, "Those 'two-spirit' tribes were not really American Indians."

A sad outcome

blujay — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:44:57 +0000

What evidence is there to support this hypothesis?

A sad outcome

blujay — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 17:17:09 +0000

Religious organizations _are_ different, by law. That's the point.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

blujay — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 16:47:25 +0000

I'm simply going to say that I recommend you look at the mozilla-governance mailing list, and read the messages from actual Mozillians, and the blog posts from actual Mozillians that are linked there, before claiming any further that Eich was very unpopular in Mozilla. Actual Mozillians are saying that most Mozillians are very upset by his departure and the whole situation. You accuse me of lying and having an ulterior motive, but you admit to "reading between the lines" instead of seeking truth from the source. My only agenda is truth and liberty.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

corbet — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:05:32 +0000

OK, please, let's put an end to this discussion? This kind of thing isn't helping anybody at this point.

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

jubal — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 14:01:01 +0000

Now you're not exactly known for your lack of bigotry, when it comes to the LGBT issues.

Focus on informative posts?

gmatht — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 13:28:55 +0000

I'm not sure if I find posts about either "nutbuggers" or "PR girls" that informative. If you can't respect each others position, perhaps you could respect the wishes of LWN readers who would prefer posts that avoid language that distracts from logical arguments.

Existing anti-gay institutions?

gmatht — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 12:58:17 +0000

Why create a new anti-gay organisation when there are so many existing ones to choose from ?

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

gerv — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 11:13:59 +0000

O RLY?

https://mozillians.org/en-US/u/gerv

A sad outcome

jamesh — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 10:01:06 +0000

Is it possible that another fork has happened some time in the last 2000 years, and we're now on version 3.0 and things have changed yet again?

Baker: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

piotrjurkiewicz — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 09:56:08 +0000

Not sure if trolling...