LWN: Comments on "Android 4.3"

Prove your assumption

jjs — Sat, 03 Aug 2013 16:29:29 +0000

That those who use download DRM'd files would NOT download non-DRM'd files. The choice isn't DRM or piracy, it's DRM, piracy, or no DRM legitimate.

DRM is known to drive away some people. Pirates will pirate with or without DRM (all DRM is essentially useless, as you have to give the person the encrypted content, the key, and the algorithm, so they can decrypt to read/listen/view). The two questions are: will those who legitimately download DRM'd files STOP downloading if it becomes non-DRM? will those who don't download DRM'd files (either pirate it, or just don't download) download non-DRM'd files?

So far the results from the music industry are that removing DRM actually increases the customer base for the companies that legitimately distribute music.

GPLv3 and fragmentation

marcH — Wed, 31 Jul 2013 08:03:33 +0000

> The GPLv2 was a license that everyone, even the BSDs could begrudgingly agree on. The GPLv3, in a lot of people's world views, was a step too far; and I think you'll find, for a lot of people and companies, it's not the anti-"tivotization" clause that is the problem: it's the anti-patent-licensing clause.

> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GPLv3 was the FSF's gift to the BSDs. Today, they're approaching having a GPL-free base system. 10 years ago I don't think anyone expected that this would be the point we were at today.

Interesting theory, I'm looking forward to the next decade to see how this all ends up.

One thing you can't argue with is: whereas the GPLv2 is only a software license, the GPLv3 is a complete, "forced freedom" package. What about people and companies who only want a software licence?

Fortunately the FSF cannot remove the GPLv2, meaning it cannot remove people's and companies' freedom to use only the software licence. Unfortunately the fragmentation between GPLv2 and GPLv3 looks deadly for both.

I personally do not mind about tivoization. It still leaves me the freedom to buy from a competitor who copies all the GPLv2 code from TiVo. If there is no market for such a competitor because consumers all prefer tivoization (at least for the moment) then so be it. If consumers don't want software freedom then it should not be shoved down their throat.

I do mind silly software patents but again I don't like the idea of shoehorning a patent fix into a licence, these are different issues that should be treated independently.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Wed, 31 Jul 2013 01:33:30 +0000

No better arguments to present?

You can say it all you want, it doesn't make it true

raven667 — Tue, 30 Jul 2013 19:16:39 +0000

>> make the lock-down keys user-modifiable or provide a tamper switch to stop the boot check, the way that the Chromebooks work.

> This is one way to comply with the so-called anti-TiVoization
provisions of GPLv3.

Yes and this was poorly advertised and promoted. Even today people commonly claim that the only way to comply with the GPLv3 is to provide the private signing keys or that the GPLv3 is fundamentally incompatible with any kind of boot time checks. I believe that this is one of the main reasons why Linus and many Linux developers don't like the GPLv3 and why many large projects are GPLv2-only or don't pick a GPL-family license at all. I think that we now have less Free Software using the GPL-family after the GPLv3 than before its introduction, which seems like a disaster to me.

I don't see much other than the Google devices which even try to be open, and the Android team didn't even chose the GPL because they believe it is incompatible with their business interests. Whether that is true or not, the fact that the meme is out there and so strong it its own problem that should have been avoided.

You can say it all you want, it doesn't make it true

rfontana — Tue, 30 Jul 2013 17:44:15 +0000

> I think this was handled poorly by the GPLv3 design committee,

The what?

> ISTM the way to handle anti-TiVoization is to make the lock-down
> keys user-modifiable or provide a tamper switch to stop the boot
> check, the way that the Chromebooks work. You can either run the
> vendor-supplied firmware with DRM and whatnot or you can, with some
> small amount of effort, replace it with your own without the DRM.

This is one way to comply with the so-called anti-TiVoization
provisions of GPLv3.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

marcH — Mon, 29 Jul 2013 09:48:43 +0000

> Sometimes people lose sight of the forest for the trees, but you went far, far, far beyond that. You are losing sight of the forest, you are losing sight of the tree, instead you are concentrating on some small part of tree root and ignore everything else.

So, why do you keep feeding the troll?

Android 4.3

jay83 — Mon, 29 Jul 2013 04:01:10 +0000

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=392082767570103&set=oa.173187716194570&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf surfaceflinger. s3c-fb-vsync phone is hacked by more than one person. one ie trying to get me to sync my fb acc and fone the other keeps stopping me HELP

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 22:22:07 +0000

But I think they aren't so dumb as to cripple their own products based on some fake beliefs. There is more reason to assume that they use DRM for different purposes which have nothing to do with piracy. And those purposes can't possibly ever be good for end users.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 22:19:53 +0000

Instead of believing in ephemeral benefits of DRM which they can't even evaluate they should pay attention to the very practical and concrete issue of quality and usability which are reduced by DRM. I thought those are business people and not some wild gamblers who make their decisions based on random beliefs.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

tuna — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 20:31:46 +0000

It has been very efficient in game consoles.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

raven667 — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 15:24:01 +0000

Maybe to explain this another way, the extent to which DRM actually reduces piracy is not terribly important, the _belief_ that it does so by the content distributors _IS_ very important. As long as they believe that DRM is necessary to prevent rampant fraud they will continue to use it and it will be used on the legitimate store fronts for content.

Also, no everyone is comfortable with pirating content at all. I got into Linux and open source so that I could use the best software in the world legally with the appropriate licenses and with a clear conscience.

Perspective

Cyberax — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 09:11:17 +0000

Certainly. Spotify works just fine on CyanogenMod devices. Removing DRM completely, though, is not worth it for companies. The number of hard-core anti-DRM users is so small, that it's not worth it.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 06:29:42 +0000

> Again: the goal of DRM is not to stop illegal activity completely, it's to make it less widespread.

It doesn't even do that. In vast majority of cases DRM is broken, and those digital materials are pirated ever since. You can argue that DRM reduces piracy on the period from when it's introduced to the point when a way to break it is found. But it's a bad justification, since it's a very negligible gain in comparison with crippling the experience for legitimate users. And in most cases DRM is broken pretty fast.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 06:22:22 +0000

Situation is different from copyleft, because saying "use copyleft everywhere" is a tough proposal for those who can't come up with working business based on that (let's say it's hard to sell a game which is 100% open source including artistic assets). Business models which work for some open source projects don't work for every possible product.

DRM however is different, since it has completely no logical reason to exist, literally in any product. Therefore it's completely reasonable to propose to drop DRM everywhere.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 06:16:22 +0000

What reality check is that? Care to share some numbers that demonstrate that DRM reduces piracy? You can't because there aren't any.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Sun, 28 Jul 2013 06:09:25 +0000

As raven667 pointed out, your comparison is not valid. GOG's area is PC gaming, not mobile applications. So it's valid to compare GOG with other PC gaming distributors.

Here is a more appropriate example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GOG.com#Market_share

Perspective

coriordan — Sat, 27 Jul 2013 23:35:13 +0000

If those DRM systems are so easy to beat then their business model is already based on an honour system, so there's no reason for any DRM system that excludes free software.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

mathstuf — Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:39:11 +0000

Fahrenheit 451 was about more than a dystopia where books get burned; there was a lot of nostalgic and Ludditic feelings expressed in it. Physical interaction was described as inherently better and as being a lost part of the family workings (in 1953!). I think the vapid TV was more a statement that *all* TV is vapid compared (not just reality shows, but also the news, documentaries, etc.) to books and newpapers, family time, and other activities of old.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

paulj — Sat, 27 Jul 2013 10:03:00 +0000

None of the options you list even work for me, so ease of use is 0. Downloading the pirated stuff just works. I'd prefer it if the legal options were actually an option for me.

Android 4.3

jonabbey — Sat, 27 Jul 2013 01:17:33 +0000

Running 'getenforce' on an Android 4.3 system with an adb shell shows that SELinux is not configured to run in enforcing mode.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

raven667 — Sat, 27 Jul 2013 00:12:59 +0000

I know you can come up with a better argument than that, GOG doesn't share a platform with either of those so it's not a fair comparison.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

dlang — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 23:13:25 +0000

in all of this, it's worth pointing out that there are some publishers who publish on the Kindle store who do NOT require DRM, and their books are on kindle devices without DRM

DRM is a publishers option, If publishers didn't want to use DRM, nothing on the Kindle would change, except for the content.

Baen is one publisher who doesn't use DRM (and hasn't, ever since they started publishing e-books over a decade ago)

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:58:56 +0000

"They fight piracy with other means, including but not limited to DRM", it's just that DRM doesn't do anything to help that fight.

Again: the goal of DRM is not to stop illegal activity completely, it's to make it less widespread. For illegal activities which only 1% of citizens perform there are an adequate remedy: police and jails. But it only works if 99% of citizens obey the rules. And DRM is great help there.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:50:56 +0000

That's nice theory, but it does not pass the reality check.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:49:07 +0000

GOG predates both Google Play Store and Amazon Play Store yet it's much smaller then either of them. And iTunes Store started offered apps at about the same time as GOG started offering them. So your argument does not fly.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 22:40:24 +0000

Pick your battles. When you protest against some particularly nasty problems with DRM implementation you can be heard by others (content providers included), but when you scream: "DRM? Over my dead body! the only thing reaction you can reasonably expect is "Noted. We'll see if we can organize said dead body".

Situation is similar to discussion about copyleft: push too much and the only thing will be write off of your platform/community/etc as hopeless. Instead of someone who can influence future direction of industry you are written off and can not do anything at all.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:22:49 +0000

> Sure. That's why they fight it using different means. Including but not limited to DRM.

Do you see any logic in your statement? It's like saying, that in order to prevent fires, a building has to put handcuffs on each visitor. If asked that it didn't reduce fire rates, you'll answer that they fight fires with other means too, including but not limited to using handcuffs. What was the point of handcuffs then? Same thing with DRM. "They fight piracy with other means, including but not limited to DRM", it's just that DRM doesn't do anything to help that fight. Wonderful.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:17:10 +0000

I already explained above what I was talking about - about equal comparison (which should be evaluated by the publisher). Your comparison is not equal, i.e. you aren't talking about DRM vs no DRM, you are talking about existing services which use DRM on publishers' terms. I'm challenging the sanity of these terms, you ignore them and say that service has good usability as is. That wasn't the point.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:13:33 +0000

Not, they can't control the channels.

Well, that's kind of raven667's point.

Piracy is a counter proof to that - totally out of their control regardless of any DRM.

Sure. That's why they fight it using different means. Including but not limited to DRM.

why do we still use 20 year old tech such as DVDs?

That's easy: because they work. We still use 30 years old tech such as CDs which contain no DRM at all.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:13:24 +0000

No reason to explain that this issue depends on users. And if users have no clue - they won't make an educated choice. That wasn't my point. My point was about those who know, and still support DRM. They can start with themselves. I.e. the fact that many users aren't educated about this issue is not an excuse to support DRM.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 21:07:25 +0000

DRM doesn't make a Kindle any more convenient to use

It does. Large selection of books is available on Kindle because it supports DRM. And this is one the most important characteristics of usability for bookreaders. Kindle is better not because it's interface is more convenient then, e.g. Cool Reader. It's better for one simple reason: it's much easier to buy book if you want to read it on Kindle. It also supports synchronization between devices and other similar goodies. And all such properties are directly related to the DRM. Yes, DRM is not an advantage for user, it's a price - but for that price user gets other advantages.

If I'm going to buy a Kindle and buy Kindle books because it's convenient, then I'd still do that if there were no DRM

But this is exactly the choice you don't have and will not have for the foreseeable future! Compare Lulu's catalog to Kindle's or Nook catalogs! It's not even a contest...

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

khim — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 20:51:06 +0000

Vote with your wallet and ignore services which use DRM. This will make publishers change their minds much quicker than any other arguments.

Really? If 1% of anti-DRM zealots will stop supporting publishers then DRM will go away? Newsflash from you: if DRM will increase earnings from "normal" users by mere 2% then this will more then compensate loss from anti-DRM zealots.

Publishes do need users - but they don't need you, personally. Any other user will wallet will do. And since there are many times more users than publishers... DRM stays, sorry.

And as long as DRM stays any platform which does not support DRM automatically becomes second-class citizen: smaller selection of stuff, often higher cost, etc. Individual publishers and/or creators can try to play anti-DRM card and try to attract some users this way, but if platform owner does that said platform quickly goes down in flames. Joe Average cares about ability to watch Netflix today more then s/he cares about availability of stuff tomorrow.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 20:21:08 +0000

You can't consider such situation bad while accepting the terms. Publishers need users not any less than users need publishers (probably even more). Vote with your wallet and ignore services which use DRM. This will make publishers change their minds much quicker than any other arguments.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

raven667 — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:14:10 +0000

Right, the reality is that the choice is between a service with DRM controlled by content distributors or a service without DRM which is fought tooth and nail by the content distributors and can't legally obtain content to sell. The video content distribution industry isn't so enlightened as to sell or rent DRM-free so we need to adjust for the reality we find ourselves in. In the long game maybe they will feel secure enough to reduce or remove the need for DRM but that day isn't today.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:19:55 +0000

Why no service at all? DRM free services exist. The general trend is for DRM to die out. Music, gaming and e-book publishing industries move away from DRM. My point was the logic that any publisher and distributor should evaluate. I.e. publishers and distributors who use DRM reduce usability for their users. They increase it if they decide to drop it. Improved usability reduces piracy (as others pointed out, the better the service is, less likely some pople would pirate the content). And it doesn't affect those who would pirate either way (DRM or not). So, why don't publishers stop using DRM then? Surely not because they care about good services, and not because they worry about piracy.

Combine it with the fact that DRM is an unethical preemptive policing prone for privacy and security risks and it's easy to see that DRM has no useful and legit applications at all. All its applications are anti-user and nefarious ones.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:06:28 +0000

> practical effects in the real world have been for content distributers to fight any systems that they can't control

Not, they can't control the channels. Piracy is a counter proof to that - totally out of their control regardless of any DRM. But they can control the progress of technologies. DRM slows down advancement of storage solutions (why do we still use 20 year old tech such as DVDs?) and many other aspects of technology. It's another reason to fight DRM and to boycott services which proliferate it.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Cyberax — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:01:51 +0000

>Then imagine the same service but without DRM.
That's extremely easy: "No service at all".

Usability is also perfect - since there's nothing to use.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

shmerl — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 16:59:41 +0000

I don't think you understood my statement above. Imagine any service with DRM, and measure its usability level. Then imagine the same service but without DRM. All the same convenience as before, plus convenience to back up, device shift, time shift, etc. etc. Bingo, the second one has higher usability. That was my point. DRM *always* reduces usability.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

raven667 — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 16:12:58 +0000

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that point as the practical effects in the real world have been for content distributers to fight any systems that they can't control, where control is often achieved through DRM schemes. As the control of the distribution channels is solidified the need for technical measures such as DRM is lessened.

Some of us knew this 30 years ago

Cyberax — Fri, 26 Jul 2013 16:12:46 +0000

>That's exactly my point. DRM never increases usability, it *always* reduces it. Always. A very simple and obvious rule
Here is your error - this statement is simply wrong.

DRM allows users to trade some freedoms (like freedom to resell or freedom to backup) in exchange for other benefits. If such an offer is bad (like, "pay $20 for DRM-ed album that you can't listen on your CD-player") then users simply don't accept it. If the offer is good ("listen to any song in our collection of hundreds of thousands of songs, any time on any supported device") then it's a different story.