LWN: Comments on "Day: The Next Step"

Changes are scary

dgm — Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:42:15 +0000

> You can keep telling people that change is not scary all day long, but it is an emotional reaction.

I would like to really know how much people really reject Gnome Shell because "emotional" reactions vs. more reasonable concerns like lacking the required hardware (which is my case) or finding that the Shell does not match their work habits (like a co-worker of mine).

I don't have numbers to back it up, but I do believe that the (miss)characterization of critics as change-averse is basically a defensive reaction from the Gnome camp.

Changes are scary

man_ls — Sat, 01 Dec 2012 22:03:38 +0000

Easy: if people dislike change in GNOME, they are going to dislike changing to another desktop even more. Even going (back) to MATE is a scary proposition, since we don't know if it will still be alive in a years' time. And going to KDE... shivers!

You can keep telling people that change is not scary all day long, but it is an emotional reaction. Once they get over it and move to the Promised Land of XFCE they will not look back -- unless they don't like it, which can also happen. I am really happy there, but I value a snappy interface over any other concern. (I compile my own Debian kernels mostly to enable CONFIG_PREEMPT=y; I am not a typical case, if there ever was one in Linux land.)

Day: The Next Step

jospoortvliet — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:53:52 +0000

everyone needs something else and most cant even describe it. So that wont work...

Day: The Next Step

jospoortvliet — Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:51:13 +0000

i hope not... Both have what, a few dozen contributors at most? GNOME and KDE still have an order of magnitude more contributors - lets hope they continue to go places...

I still don't get why everyone is so upset about GNOME, btw. Get over it, finally, move to that MATE or Enlightenment or whatever. Or get over the hate and use KDE - if any project has the open mind and user focus (and is not run by one company or individual) and has a bright future build on solid technology (does anyone even notice the actual tech these days or do we fall for the project with fancy mockups and lots of blogs and talking bigshots?) it is KDE.

Day: The Next Step

cgwaldman — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 22:25:30 +0000

> Enlightenment doesn't provide applications AFAIK

It provides a few ...

Day: The Next Step

hummassa — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:59:46 +0000

Isn't it a noatime problem?

Day: The Next Step

zlynx — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:09:09 +0000

It may have improved. I'm sure it has.

It isn't that it listened to reads. It is that its own reads would stuff the disk queue and get in the way of things I wanted the disk for.

It used to repeatedly scan files as they were downloading. It would continuously read my email directories because there were several new messages every minute. When downloading new messages in newsgroups it would scan those files. On a fresh login it slowed everything down while setting up inotify because my home directory contained probably 20,000 subdirectories in various places because of a lot of code projects and version control stuff.

It was *extremely* lame when Tracker would go wild just because of an SVN checkout.

I improved it some by setting a lot of directories to ignore, but how useful is a file search tool that can't manage to search a useful number of files?

Day: The Next Step

Trelane — Tue, 27 Nov 2012 02:17:32 +0000

It's listening in on creation/write events using inotify. It shouldn't listen to reads, let alone slow them.

I've not seen the slowdown you describe as far as i know. I've used it since its initial release through ubuntu.

Day: The Next Step

zlynx — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 23:17:32 +0000

Except that, in my experience, Tracker slows down a laptop by a factor of 3. Yes, really.

This is because so many Linux desktop programs make random file accesses (icons! wav files! fonts! translation files! background bitmaps! 52 shared libraries! 10 config files!) while starting. Watch them with strace or track disk block access sometime.

That means that if another program like Tracker is constantly reading the disk, it adds many extra ms of latency to every non-contiguous disk read. Because of the many random file accesses these ms add up to multiple seconds for each application launch.

Again, this is my experience with Tracker on a laptop with a hard disk and 2 GB of RAM. Your mileage or meters may vary.

Day: The Next Step

deepfire — Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:09:20 +0000

If you would have thought a little, you'd come to the conclusion that the damage was inflicted upon _all_ potential paths of continuation of GNOME 2.

Mate is merely one of them.

It's not clear, what precludes you from being able to see this simple fact.

Day: The Next Step

ebassi — Fri, 23 Nov 2012 17:04:39 +0000

if only Music had the same album identification, collection, and sorting that Muine had - it would be awesome. nothing really matches it - not Rhythmbox, and not Banshee.

Day: The Next Step

hummassa — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:43:07 +0000

At the present day, I even believe it is possible. When 4.0 came out, they shared ~/.kde and the newer apps used to botch config and datafiles of the old apps, rendering both DEs unusable. Yes, I know the paths are configurable. They just weren't well configured for parallel installation by default (and yes, IMHO they should be).

Day: The Next Step

Trelane — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 05:46:57 +0000

It's called tracker: http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/
Hth.

Day: The Next Step

Trelane — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 05:45:04 +0000

>That's kind of what the comment system is for, right?

And the comment filtering system. Perhaps someday it'll evolve some context dependence, e.g. ghepeu when comment contains gnome instead ofg just all ghepeu posts.

Day: The Next Step

vonbrand — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:56:34 +0000

Don't worry. In a couple of months you'll be back.

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dlang — Thu, 22 Nov 2012 00:00:12 +0000

not all work on a tablet requires touch software. Eliminating all existing software, simply because it isn't touch-enabled is as stupid as eliminating all text based software simply because it doesn't have a GUI.

A LOT of very productive work is done by people who are using all-text software that would work on a vt100 terminal, using this software in xterms (or equivalent)

Yes, there are advantages of having new versions of most of this become GUI enabled, but if you were to make it so that you couldn't run any of this old software, it would cripple many people (and historically, it would have doomed the GUI based desktop)

The exact same situation exists relating to touch-based software. It's nice, but you shouldn't eliminate everything else first. There's a LOT of software that exists and does things that you can't currently do on tablets that would actually work tolerably well if you just treated the touch as a mouse and let people run it (for some definition of 'tolerably' anyway ;-)

On top of that, a lot of places where people are using tablets and even phones, there are USB and bluetooth keyboards and mice available. Simply using a high-end phone/tablet as a portable computer and 'docking' it to a TV or larger monitor would work very well for many people, even without touch support.

you can sort-of do this today by installing a complete OS in a sandbox, but that's wasteful of space (something that's a rather limited resource on phones and tablets), it would be far nicer if there was some way to get the capabilities without having to duplicate the entire infrastructure.

If that's enhancing Android to allow it to run 'traditional' apps, fine.

If that's enhancing 'traditional Linux' to allow it to run Android apps, that's also fine (in some way's it's better, a lot of companies "don't support Linux", but support Android. Being able to run their apps on my Linux desktop would close a lot of gaps)

Day: The Next Step

ingwa — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:30:27 +0000

In other words: Full of desktop software, none of which has a viable touch interface and none of which will get one within 1-2 years. Why on earth would they want to do that?

If you want to look at free software which actually can work on a tablet, look instead at Plasma Active and the accompanying applications there.

Day: The Next Step

ovitters — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:05:56 +0000

I already explained the relevance of MATE before. Earlier in thread it was said that it was to sabotage MATE. If MATE didn't exist at that point, then even if you say sabotage, it cannot be about MATE.

In the email/thread you referenced was if there would be any development work to make this possible. It was decided to not invest any time into this and instead focus on getting rid of old technologies, porting gnome-panel, etc. Note that Bastien is not a GNOME release team member (he is a well known maintainer of various important components).

Note also my reply (in which I was dead wrong :P): https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2010-O...

Day: The Next Step

bronson — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 16:46:57 +0000

He's talking about Gnome 3 parallel installable with Gnome 2. The existence of MATE has nothing to do with it.

This thread sounds deliberate to me: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2010-O...

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cmorgan — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:51:55 +0000

+1, totally agree

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ovitters — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:26:17 +0000

You're suggestion deliberate action or deliberate inaction.

Given this, it still does not match up. MATE still didn't exist at the time of GNOME 3. Furthermore, the inaction was not deliberate.

Lastly, you've suggested these steps were simple, while at the same time it resulted in sabotage. If those steps were simple then: 1) patches welcome 2) why make such a fuss about sabotage?

Day: The Next Step

sebas — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:24:22 +0000

KDE3 and 4 are parallel installable. We spent quite some effort to make that possible, and distributions like openSUSE offered both for some time.

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jzb — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:22:31 +0000

Some people (not me, but some people) actually *like* the kind of applications you speak of - and would prefer to use free software. Apparently, that's the audience the GNOME folks are trying to reach. I think it's good that folks who want that will have a free software alternative.

As a former GNOME user, the direction GNOME has taken isn't my style - but we also have Cinnamon and Mate offering more "traditional" GNOME experiences for folks who aren't on board with the current direction of GNOME. So - everybody wins, which would not be the case if the GNOME folks "try to get a job at the smartphone division of Google, Apple, or Microsoft."

Day: The Next Step

rsidd — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:20:28 +0000

Nobody but Jobs could have sold a keyboardless computer to the world. The Onion speculated that he would, but even they didn't predict just how far he would go.

Now, Microsoft (of all people) is pointing out that keyboards are useful. If the Surface Pro turns out to be a useful laptop and is reasonably priced, I predict it (and similar products) will outsell the iPad within a year.

The company that should be worried is Google, and -- to get back on topic -- they should aggressively target the Unix/Linux crowd, as Apple successfully did a decade ago. I run Linux in a chroot on an android tablet and it works for me. If they can make it a genuine laptop-alternative, pre-installed with LibreOffice, the Gimp and other goodies, while maintaining the Android ecosystem, they have -- if not a winner -- a very strong selling point.

Day: The Next Step

fb — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:18:23 +0000

> That said, this bug report is unbelievable. "Editing is a corner case, open text files and spreadsheets in a bad copy of Mac OS X Preview" who incidentally opens only images, PDFs and PPTs, that is only files that you mostly view, not edit, because when you have paying customers, even if you're Apple, sometimes you need to compromise your "vision of the user experience". Yes, even if you're a "designer".

That bug report thread was the most amusing piece I read in a while...

(Can you imagine being the user who submitted that?)

LWN should have a "Weekly WTF bug report thread" section.

[...]

No, I don't use Gnome3 (otherwise I would not be laughing), I just skim through LWN comments every now and then.

Day: The Next Step

hummassa — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:06:48 +0000

Wikipedia article notwithstanding, there is sabotage by INaction, too. For instance, a worker can neglect to monitor the temperature of an industrial machine, and thereof NOT act opening a coolant valve, causing it to overheat and be damaged.

So, when the (simple) steps were not taken minimally to ensure that GNOME3 and GNOME2 were parallel-installable (KDE3/4, too!), it can be construed as a sabotage.

Day: The Next Step

ovitters — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 14:59:03 +0000

The way that Steve Jobs introduces new tech is really awesome. It might be something new with loads of drawbacks (e.g. iPhone 1 didn't support various things, iPad is terrible to write loads of stuff on).

I recently watched how Steve Jobs presented the iPhone as well as the iPad and IMO it is really impressive how he does it. He does mention the things it is not intended for, though also focusses on what it is meant for.

It seems to give a trust. It cannot do everything, but whatever they focussed upon will be great.

Recommend seeing these presentations again.

Day: The Next Step

Company — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 14:41:14 +0000

It could be argued that his is a failure of the GNOME project. But giving people what they want is often a bad idea:

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” ― Henry Ford.

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Company — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 14:36:36 +0000

Music looks more like Muine than Rhythmbox.

Day: The Next Step

drago01 — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 14:34:07 +0000

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2012-N...

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kigurai — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:34:10 +0000

Well, that is more or less part of the definition of not being part of the vision, don't you think? And I don't think that is strange at all.

My own guess is that GNOME will live on successfully (it's already been more than a year...). Since there are multiple new desktops being spawned, hopefully the users that feel they do not fit the GNOME vision can find a home somewhere else.

Day: The Next Step

ovitters — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:13:24 +0000

Depends on what is easiest. Sometimes it is a new application, sometimes reusing an existing application. For Totem and Nautilus, existing applications. For "Images" I think the idea is to fork "eog" while at the same time stop any "eog" development. For gnome-clocks and gnome-boxes there wasn't anything to reuse, so they were created from scratch (AFAIK).

In some presentation they explained that they actually might write several mock application. This to figure out the UI/design. Then later when the design is right, the real application is written. For the real application you'd of course use whatever is easiest. But to test designs, changing some existing application could take too much work (compared to writing a throwaway one).

Day: The Next Step

ovitters — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:06:26 +0000

You mean you'll use GNOME 3 applications under those desktops? That is what I was wondering.

Day: The Next Step

ovitters — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 12:01:31 +0000

I'm guessing your definition of sabotage is not what I see on e.g. Wikipedia.

From Wikipedia:

Sabotage is a deliberate action aimed at weakening another entity through subversion, obstruction, disruption, or destruction.

MATE arrived later than GNOME 3. Nothing was done to make parallel installation possible. However, no deliberate action was taken to make this impossible.

So in short: For once MATE arrived afterwards. Secondly it was not a deliberate action.

Day: The Next Step

rsidd — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:55:03 +0000

You count. Because what you need fits with their vision. But the ones whose needs don't fit with the vision, apparently, don't count.

Time will tell which group is more significant.

Day: The Next Step

kigurai — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:17:01 +0000

Well, they are delivering what I need. Why don't I count?

Day: The Next Step

Otus — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:04:55 +0000

> Why not actually read the blog instead of asking questions for which you can easily find the answer? For instance, Videos will be based off Totem. Not sure of the point of your comment. Of course all kinds of similar ideas/applications already exist.

AFAICT, they talk about new applications in both the blog post and the wiki, with the sole exception of using totem for video.

Are they really planning on writing new apps for the other areas? Or only rebranding current apps?

Day: The Next Step

deepfire — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:47:29 +0000

The post _I_ was replying to was not strictly about applications.

Day: The Next Step

deepfire — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:44:55 +0000

Did you read my message at all?

The sabotaged part was parallel installability of GNOME 2 and GNOME 3.

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gidoca — Wed, 21 Nov 2012 10:12:22 +0000

I think he wasn't all that much. Rather, he was good in making people want what he gave them. :)