LWN: Comments on "Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha"

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

yeti-dn — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:51:27 +0000

Some of us use the computer to get work done though. Cool? Has identity? How does that help me?

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

MaartenM79 — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:18:32 +0000

Gnome 3 is cool. The shell is awsome. This gives the desktop it's own identity, finally. I would say way overdue.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

cesarb — Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:08:53 +0000

Speaking of the regular DVD installer: can it run directly from a USB stick like the Live DVD? I tried several Fedora releases ago and it did not work.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

sgros — Fri, 11 Mar 2011 08:27:19 +0000

And what exactly is wrong with wanting to keep what I'm used to?

You have full right to say that you are unsatisfied, but what counts in the end is what the majority will say. What ever GNOME, or whoever, does, there will always be those that oppose the change...

For me, I want a change because it is harder and harder to keep with all those windows and desktops and tasks and files... and I'm going to try to use GNOME3 and then decide. Actually, I can hardly for F15 to come out...

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

rahulsundaram — Fri, 11 Mar 2011 04:03:02 +0000

"When Fedora 10 came with it's added desktop effects I disabled it"

Desktop effects was never enabled by default.

"What is the stand of Btrfs in F15? What happened to Grub 2?"

Both scheduled to be default for Fedora 16. If you use the regular DVD installer then Btrfs will be offered as one of options in Fedora 15. This is the case for the Alpha release.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

cry_regarder — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:51:48 +0000

If sloppy focus is gone, then I will skip F15 and then switch to some other desktop for F16.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

compte — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:09:51 +0000

I haven't tried Gnome 3 but I am not a fan of switching desktops. When Fedora 10 came with it's added desktop effects I disabled it. I have tried KDE and didn't like it, too fancy. People should remember how Google made its success on the search engine, with a SIMPLE homepage, while other companies cluttered their pages with adds.
What is the stand of Btrfs in F15? What happened to Grub 2?

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

ovitters — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:18:10 +0000

Oh, whoops. Two different persons (thought the one I initially responded to and the followup is someone different). :)

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

ovitters — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:14:44 +0000

Maybe you want to lookup the definition of Paternalism (I had to do that):

Paternalism is the interference of a state or an individual with another person, against their will, and defended or motivated by a claim that the person interfered with will be better off or protected from harm.

You said gnomy paternalism. If I then read above definition, I fail to understand that at first you mention paternalism, which also includes forcing people against their will. Then in a followup, you mention you're not forced?

I presume maybe your understand or Paternalism or the one I found via Google (2nd link) is not in sync with what it really means.

To be 100% clear: No issues with suggestions that GNOME should listen to users (think we try, but that is a different discussion :) ).

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

djao — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:05:41 +0000

It seems to me that many people are bashing GNOME3 simply because they used to work in one way and they either don't want to or can't change that. I believe that any project that makes any visible (radical?) change will get the same feedback. The problem is also that only those that are unsatisfied say so.

And what exactly is wrong with wanting to keep what I'm used to?

For the desktop paradigm, I think that something radical has to be done.

I agree as well, but I drastically disagree with what radical changes need to be made. "Removal of customization options" is not on my list of desirable changes.

There is absolutely no usability principle which says that alt+middleclick must do one thing, and alt+rightclick must do another thing. If I'm used to these buttons doing something different than the default configuration, then I will want to modify the configuration on my machine rather than changing my own habits. Indeed I find the suggestion that I should be forced to change my habits to accommodate software limitations to be somewhat condescending (it's 2011, why should there be software limitations?). I would never change my habits to accommodate the limitations in GNOME3, not in a million years -- I would rather switch to using another desktop environment which is more accommodating to my preferences (and it looks like this is what I'm going to have to do).

I can even understand it if the default configuration for these kinds of settings are hard to modify, since accidental modifications of desktop settings can confuse users. But to make them impossible to modify short of editing the source code is going way too far. This kind of restrictive denial of the capabilities of modern computers is the reverse of the kind of radical change that I am looking for.

So you can count me out as a GNOME3 user. As a longtime GNOME user, it saddens me somewhat to see GNOME evolving in this (imo) counterproductive direction. Many other users, like me, are also planning to "vote with their feet" when push comes to shove. Dismissing the userbase, as you seem to be doing, serves only to guarantee GNOME's demise into irrelevancy. After all, without users, there is no point in the software.

Maybe I am wrong, and maybe GNOME will (as you say) represent desirable radical change. But that will be up to the users to decide. I, as a user, vote no. It is with great reluctance that I choose not to use GNOME3, since GNOME has served me well until now. But the situation has deteriorated to the point where I cannot engage the GNOME developers in any meaningful way; any attempts to do so are met with the untenable suggestion that I change my own usage habits. Thus I have no choice but to take the drastic step of discontinuing usage of GNOME.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

djao — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 08:38:28 +0000

Nobody forces me to use GNOME, which is a good thing, as I have no intention of using GNOME3, even though all my desktops are presently GNOME2. As I understand it, the original poster was saying the same thing.

There is nothing impolite or disrespectful about pointing out that GNOME3 is unsuitable for my needs. Nor is there anything impolite or disrespectful about suggesting to the GNOME developers that they should pay attention to what users actually want. After all, if they lose all their users, the community loses too.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

sgros — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:22:25 +0000

It seems to me that many people are bashing GNOME3 simply because they used to work in one way and they either don't want to or can't change that. I believe that any project that makes any visible (radical?) change will get the same feedback. The problem is also that only those that are unsatisfied say so.

For the desktop paradigm, I think that something radical has to be done. It was invented when computers were slower, lot less capable, and people were lot less dependent on them. With so many virtual desktops, different and unrelated applications, documents, jobs being done in parallel, it becomes harder and harder to keep track of everything. After all, desktop paradigm was modeled after desktop, maybe it's time for computers to stop using classical desktop as a model and start using some invention of their own.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

jmorris42 — Thu, 10 Mar 2011 05:34:44 +0000

> If this is supposed to be the future of the Linux Desktop
> then there is no future.

Amen. I can promise one thing. Mutter isn't coming anywhere my public lab machines, even as an option. I ain't answering the support questions.

And it isn't going on any machine I use. I just booted the F15 Alpha Live Disk and all I can say is NO. To switch virtual desktops I'm expected to mouse to the upper left corner then down to bottom middle? (Or use the keyboard shortcut, which I'd use instead.) And that insanity of the whole second screen with application icons is a non-starter. I hope the inability to get focus follow mouse is lack of space on the live disc but I have a terrible feeling that it is another victim of the GNOMEs getting the Steve Jobs disease of "However I happen to prefer a setting is the ONE way and you pitiful fools will do it my way until you realize I was right all along."

Looks Like I'll get one more version where I can probably force Compiz or metacity to work while I transition to XFCE.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

bkoz — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:56:39 +0000

Where can I add, remove, or change panels? Where can I add launchers to the existing panels?

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

ovitters — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:28:22 +0000

Sounds like another instance of this gnomy paternalism

That only applies if GNOME forces you to use GNOME against your will. If that is the case, please contact the GNOME Foundation board and that is a pretty big no no.

Saw also this quote when I tried to add a comment:

Please try to be polite, respectful, and informative, and to provide a useful subject line.

The comments regarding GNOME on Lwn aren't really polite IMO.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

fsphil — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:58:03 +0000

Ah, well that explains my comment below about it appearing ugly - my system doesn't do any kind of video acceleration.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

rahulsundaram — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 03:42:18 +0000

Right. GNOME Shell and System Settings are completely new codebases and the font configuration is added upstream but not in Fedora 15 yet since the codebase was frozen about two weeks ago. Updates will bring in more functionality. Some of the settings are not coming back however.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

jengelh — Wed, 09 Mar 2011 00:33:16 +0000

>I don't think they want to let you turn off the animations.

Sounds like another instance of this gnomy paternalism, seen before when Linus had his temporary move to KDE episode.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

dowdle — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 23:43:12 +0000

Just to clarify, I was referring to GNOME Shell being completely new code... and not a rewrite of existing GNOME 2 stuff... or at least that is how I understand it. The control panel in GNOME 3 seems all new too.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

dowdle — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 23:40:21 +0000

I don't think they want to let you turn off the animations. After all, if you could do that then GNOME Shell would work without requiring accelerated 3D. You would think that would be an option... after all "desktop virtualization" is on the list of "next big things in IT"... and hardware accelerated 3D doesn't work (at all or very well) in most virtualization products including KVM... so no GNOME Shell in your virtual desktop... nor in your remote terminal services type access types (VNC, FreeNX, NX, etc).

If you aren't hardware accelerated 3D capable, then it reverts to a quasi-GNOME 2.x interface. On the Fedora 15 Alpha release you can simulate a non-3D accelerated environment by picking "Boot (Basic Video)" at the boot screen (as witnessed in this review http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/2011/03/preview-fedora-15-gn...). Don't expect the visual touches to be there in this mode though... as the window decorations and theme are very basic.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

nteon — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 23:36:35 +0000

gtk3 is not a new codebase. Its gtk2 with some backwards-incompatible changes and the internals of structs sealed up, if my understanding is correct. 'gnome 3' is most of the gnome apps updated to use gtk3 & other newly blesses technologies (dconf instead of gconf comes to mind). In addition the default shell has changed to the new gnome shell from the panel, which is what most people take issue with, as it has many knobs found in the current version of gnome removed (maybe these are removed from gnome-*-properties apps? I'm not sure).

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

ibukanov — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:57:01 +0000

> Were can I change the font hinting? Where can I change
the Desktop fonts?

I second that. It is rather strange that Gnome-3 does not provide this basic feature yet. Nowadays with a wide range of screen sizes and resolutions there is no way that one default setting can work. For example, Gnome-3 fonts on my 11.9" laptop with 1366x768 resolution almost instantly caused too much eye strain especially with those tiny icon titles.

And where can I disable all window animation?

Changing Live DVD language and keyboard layout?

cesarb — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:27:51 +0000

Found it, it was hidden under "System Settings" on the menu which appears when you click on "Live System User" on the top right of the screen.

Changing Live DVD language and keyboard layout?

cesarb — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:10:39 +0000

I am playing right now with the F15 Alpha i686 Live DVD on a EeePC 701.

I am used to choosing the language and keyboard layout at the bottom of the GDM screen before logging in as "liveuser", but I did not see this option. Has it moved to somewhere else? I could not find a way of changing the keyboard layout after logging in, too.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

fsphil — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 22:06:15 +0000

I've been running it for a while. But, is it just me or is it actually quite ugly? Compared to the recent versions of Fedora anyway.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

dowdle — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:56:12 +0000

Oh, so you are saying that they implemented all of the GNOME 2.x features in GNOME 3, and them removed most of them? No wonder GNOME 3 took so long. :)

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

GhePeU — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 21:48:39 +0000

<i>Since GNOME 3 is primarily a new development/codebase, things haven't been "removed", they just haven't been added. :)</i>

No, they've been removed and there's no intention to add them back.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

dowdle — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:56:25 +0000

Regarding systemd taking ages to boot in the Alpha... it doesn't really take ages. In its current form it boots about as fast as previous init systems... although I haven't actually timed it. You need to understand that this is an Alpha release and the release has has a lot more troubleshooting stuff turned on. You can expect the kernel to be noticeably slower (primarily in boot speed) in the pre-releases. So systemd (and the kernel) should be a lot faster when the final release is done.

Since GNOME 3 is primarily a new development/codebase, things haven't been "removed", they just haven't been added. :)

I like GNOME Shell well enough but I prefer KDE myself. I know there is going to be a considerable amount of backlash when GNOME 3 starts shipping in new distro releases (not just Fedora)... and yes, there will be a backlash against Ubuntu's alternative Unity as well. This will be similar to what happened with the switch to KDE 4. Some people will be unhappy with the changes and demand every feature they used in previous releases be present before they are happy... and that just isn't going to happen.

On the font problem, I haven't experienced that on any of the systems I've used and am guessing it is hardware related. I'd say search for an existing bug and pile on, or file a new bug.

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

wondoman — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 20:07:56 +0000

So I've downloaded the Live-CD and dd'ed on an USB-Stick
just to give Gnome 3 a try.
If this is supposed to be the future of the Linux Desktop
then there is no future.
Were can I change the font hinting? Where can I change
the Desktop fonts? Why was the "Appearance" option removed
from Control Center? The default fonts are unreadable.

Systemd takes ages to boot and redirects meaningless application
messages to /dev/kmsg. Why?

Announcing the release of Fedora 15 Alpha

me@jasonclinton.com — Tue, 08 Mar 2011 19:19:18 +0000

Anyone installing this today is going to hit a minor dependency problem when they try and run updates on their newly installed system (updates are highly recommended since the Alpha was spun from packages about 2 weeks old.) The fix was pushed to koji already but if you want to skip ahead, you can apply the update to gnome-desktop [1] manually and then run updates per usual.

[1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=232605