LWN: Comments on "The dark side of open source conferences"

The dark side of open source conferences

phaedrus — Sat, 30 Jul 2011 10:39:00 +0000

Found this linked through an article on H Open Source (http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/More-conferences-a...)

Thank you for writing the article and publicizing these problems. It's abhorrent to exclude anyone from 'open' source conferences (whether through inhospitable actions or hostility and violence). Keep up the good work.

culture in general

gvy — Sun, 02 Jan 2011 19:06:54 +0000

> If a woman is assaulted, the man should go to jail, no excuses.
Well if a woman is assaulted and there's at least one proper man around (not the assaulting weenie) then a lesson in behaviour should follow, at least in "wild" Russia she can pretty well expect that.

> The same goes for racism and all the other ways that individuals
> or groups attempt to maintain a power imbalance in their favor.
Heh. One of such groups seems to actively push the "anti-racism" and "tolerance" agenda selectively -- for the rest of us. For themselves these jehudons allow racism, extremism and plain old lies just fine. Take care filtering this stuff.

The dark side of open source conferences

Lethedethius — Tue, 14 Dec 2010 16:54:04 +0000

Ya know, I've served 5 going on 6 years in the military and we face the same problems, our harrassment rate is above the United States actually (if I remember right) and we're taking action against it by publisizing what can be done to prevent it and how to report it. Please both women and men need to be a little thick skinned and not take every interaction with men as harrassment, yes men will come onto women, it's human nature. If you're an attractive woman then I'm sorry, I will be attracted to you, if you have an attractive personality, I will be attracted to you. If you say no the first time then I should stop right there. There are laws that prevent this stuff, and every convention should exercise those laws, thru formal and informal complaints, have a black list of people who are not eligable to attend anymore because of misconduct. And those who go to far (digging in the pants) should be formally charged accordingly. I read about a stupid picture on a slide and laugh, was it nude? We're all adults people, if you do not like it turn your head, but at the same time feel free to have a man in a thong holding a laptop too in your slide deck. I'm a guy, if I don't like it I'll turn my head, not whine about it. In life you must develop thick skin, take someone to the side and inquire about your issues and their thoughts. Please do not post nonsense about a picture, that follows up the alley of the Drew Carey Shows "French Fry and Catapillar" picture. Rediculous right? The important issue here is sexual harrassment and assault, reporting is the most important thing. It IS NOT your fault you got sexually assaulted, it IS your fault you did not report it though. You don't want to be sexually assaulted then put a stop to it, don't complain about it. Report it to the authorities so they can take control and put the individual where they belong, behind cold steel bars. A second issue is treating others as they should be treated, rather your a bimbo or a technical genius you should be treated the same, and that is hard to push. The strippers should get the same respect the speaker gets, period. If you have an issue with that, by all means shoot me and e-mail and we have a face to face chat in person, I'll persuade you to think the same way I think. Men are attracted to women, it doesn't give them the right to harrass or assault them, but it is everyones right to ONCE(ONLY ONCE) to make a verbal advance and see where it takes us. This is a social event right? Aren't these advances a means of socializing? If you are too thin skinned to simply say no and not be offended by the individual then wear a sign saying "not interested in hooking up" because it happens at malls, walmart, and funerals; not just conventions. My .2cents(multipled by 15). To summarize, don't be offended by advances, be offended by harrassment and assault, and report them! That should be the standard.

The dark side of open source conferences

nix — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:47:25 +0000

That'll be hard. There was research a few years ago trying to determine something-or-other (I can't remember what it was) involving men who used porn and those who did not.

They had to abandon the study because they could not find one single male who would admit to satisfying the latter criterion. Now, admittedly, this being a psych study the sample set probably consisted entirely of psych undergrads, who are young and thus suffering from a degree of testosterone poisoning... but fundamentally we are visually activated animals and it appears likely that pornography is eternal. (Some of the first recorded cave art, those 'fertility icons'? Plainly prehistoric porn. The stuff is probably older than Homo sapiens. Good luck stamping it out.)

(Some men may go off it later in life, but I suspect that marriage and/or declining testosterone levels are more to blame than anything else.)

One for the timeline

nix — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:39:50 +0000

How can you tell who is going to be 'in the class of programmers' when very young? (Well, unless you're me, hooked from the age of five. But note: not an abuser, the very thought makes me feel ill. In this I am quite normal, one would hope. Football players, now... ;} )

One for the timeline

nix — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 20:33:20 +0000

For what it's worth I didn't think you meant that... but it's plain that it could be misread that way, so I clarified as best I could.

The dark side of open source conferences

linuxrocks123 — Sun, 12 Dec 2010 07:21:59 +0000

Following this rule means giving free reign to any person wishing to censor something. All that person has to do is say, "that offends me", and the censorship is done. I support -- and always will support -- actively ignoring people who are offended by trivial things.

---linuxrocks123

The dark side of open source conferences

lImbus — Sat, 11 Dec 2010 14:41:42 +0000

Sad to hear such thing is needed, but I definitely would like to support it wherever I can.

Needless to say that the same rules of common sense apply to any other group of human beeings, should there every rise jokes about ... let's say homosexual contributors.

It was a pleasure to read your little study.

~lImbus

please stop.

randomguy3 — Fri, 10 Dec 2010 12:15:00 +0000

They may be trumped up. They may not be. We (random people on the internets) certainly don't have enough information to say one way or the other. They are certainly serious, though.

What we have are courts to hear the evidence and come to a conclusion. Largely open courts, whose decisions can be scrutinised by the press and public.

Mr Assange is attempting to avoid the confrontation with the courts. He believes he is in danger of either a miscarriage of justice or extradition to the US. These things may be true, but the world will be watching carefully.

Anyway, this is something of a digression from the topic of the article, but your automatic assumption that the women involved must be lying simply because his arrest is convenient for various governments certainly won't endear you to other readers. And you are somewhat undermining your earlier argument about how the police are the right people to deal with issues at conferences given how little faith you apparently have in European legal systems.

Sexual harassment is only a part of the picture

bunk — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 12:32:56 +0000

When talking about a "generic anti-harassment policy", I wonder how far it does or should go (and as a non-native speaker. I'm struggling with what exactly is covered with the word "harassment").

The discussion here seems to be only about harassing people due to their gender or sexual orientation.

In big parts of the open source community it seems to be accepted to make fun of non-attending people like Bill Gates or Richard Stallman.

I remember a conference where fun was made of Richard Stallman in the keynote, and even though I'm not affiliated with the FSF I did consider this inappropriate.

I'm definitely not comparing this with groping or raping, but I see this as something comparable to the "A presenter had a title slide followed by a slide of bikini-clad women holding laptops".

When a speaker makes fun of Richard Stallman, is that something that is covered as inapproriate by the generic anti-harassment policy?

shifting the burden

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:24:03 +0000

By contrast my company has 2 developers to around 30 men. And the two women are *new*. It's a good start.

The dark side of open source conferences

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 09:05:09 +0000

I don't believe that happened.

The dark side of open source conferences

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:59:55 +0000

I read the Sparrow. It's tripe.

I also know that yelling is not the same as harassment: On the way to work the other day, three cars entered an intersection when there was not enough room in the lane they wanted on the other side. The light changed. They dumbly stayed lined up blocking traffic. I was walking by and yelled "GET OUT OF THE INTERSECTION, YOU IDIOTS! PULL INTO THE OTHER LANE! ITS YOUR ERROR!" This was not harassment.

It's not just Open Source conferences

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:52:49 +0000

Oh hate those feminists! Hate hate hate!

One for the timeline

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:46:49 +0000

Let it go, please.

The dark side of open source conferences

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:35:23 +0000

I'm a gay man on the fringes of open source in the US. I've been to way too many linuxy/open sourcey conferences (worked for SuSE etc) and I've pretty much never noticed the harassment of attendees. The only unusal topical thing that happened is I actually got picked up -- in a very careful and deferential and polite manner. We went on a pleasant date though it didn't really go anywhere.

Back on topic: I don't see these things happening. Yes, I would see the tasteless sexualized environment thigns from time to time, and I would frown on them, complain about them to co-attendees, and sometimes tell the purveyeors of them that they reflect poorly on the company. But I did not notice any directed harassment, intimidation, or gender demeaning going on.

However, when I talk to women about the topic I find out that they absolutely *are* happening. I get all kinds of stories from subtly awful where women are looked past for opinions from their male colleagues to the overtly bizaree like the conversation about "You're not an engineer. There are no women engineers." Harassment of this sort has a tendency to happen when other parties aren't around or involved. It's easy to miss if people don't speak up about it.

I don't get it

k8to — Wed, 08 Dec 2010 08:11:28 +0000

Writing down community standards is a useful thing!

I don't get it

bronson — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:31:56 +0000

Where did sez talk about throwing out hundreds of people?

I don't get it

mjg59 — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 20:30:54 +0000

I think you're mistaking judicial process and a private event.

I don't get it

dlang — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 19:20:00 +0000

if you refund the person's air fare, hotel, and conference registration, then it can approach 'too bad, so sad' but even then it's not a non-event.

your opinion seems to be 'better to punish a hundred innocent people by throwing them out than to miss throwing out one bad person', aka a presumption of guilt.

At least in the US, this is not how things are supposed to work.

please stop.

jake — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:33:03 +0000

We seem to have gotten pretty far afield from the topic of the article. I imagine there are plenty of places to discuss Wikileaks/Assange and the charges against him. Howzabout we stop discussing it here?

thanks,

jake

please stop.

jackb — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 17:07:03 +0000

A actual rape victim does not go out the next morning, buy food, cook breakfast for her attacker, eat it with him and only later deciding to file charges.

It's a sham that only makes sense under the twisted ideology of "all men are automatically rapists".

Of course it's all geopoliticaly motivated but the incident does serve to illuminate just how outrageous those laws have become.

please stop.

paulj — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:47:31 +0000

Ah, and just after I wrote that, details of charges come out in the court hearing and they include use of force. Still, needs to be tried before judgment...

please stop.

paulj — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:40:30 +0000

Do you always automatically take accusations against people as true? The precise nature of consent is at best unclear, and there are no allegations of force or duress of any kind (least none public at least).

please stop.

paulj — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:36:51 +0000

A better link would be via istyosty (a proxy), to minimise the clicks given to the Daily Hate: http://istyosty.com/2r1

please stop.

vaurora — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:30:15 +0000

Oh, my mistake - they had sex with a condom, then they want to sleep, then he had sex without a condom against his partner's wishes. In the other incident they had sex with a condom, the condom broke, and he went on to have sex without a condom against his partner's wishes.

I'm afraid this doesn't change my disagreement with the original poster at all. No consent was withdrawn retroactively, it was not given at the time of the act.

The dark side of open source conferences

charlieb — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 16:22:45 +0000

> The humor depended on the contrast of that explicit message with
> the implication that what many of us were *really* there for was
> to pick up chicks on the way to the party.

I don't think so. I think the humor depended on knowing what happened at the *previous* OLS party. Someone associated with the venue, and not associated with OLS, invited a handful of "friends" - who were provocatively dressed, perfumed, stillettoed, etc, etc.

I have no doubt that this is what was being referred to by the OLS organiser, and that Valerie was not aware of that background. I don't think she would have taken offense if she had been aware of that back-story.

please stop.

foom — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:58:52 +0000

You can use actual links on lwn.net, you know. It's not Twitter -- you don't have to fit within 140 characters.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks...

I don't get it

sez — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:16:21 +0000

Ejecting people opens $conf up to lawsuits. Where is your evidence for this claim?

Sounds like FUD to me.

Certainly for our conference our insurance policy explicitly *does not cover* claims under molestation, so if someone experiences that at our conference and we have done nothing to prevent it, we are wide open to being sued.

But as far as ejecting people goes - no problem.

False complaint?? What are you talking about?

This is not a kangaroo court, no-ones being charged with anything here. If the worst possible thing happens under this policy and the person gets ejected, too bad - so sad, they go back to work and tell their buddies whatever they want. Its a minor inconvenience.

If the conf organisers don't eject them and the offender goes on to grope and harass more people, the class action lawsuit, not covered by insurance is going to go as high as the national debt.

You want to pay for that?

If its REAL, call the cops, otherwise STFU

sez — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:09:08 +0000

Cops release the guy on bail, he comes back and does it again.

Conference organisers act - eject him, deal with it, revoke his registration - no badge, no entry, no more problems.

I don't get it

sez — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 15:04:30 +0000

You've watched too many cop shows.

Investigations into matters like this involve medical examinations, and taking of statements from witnesses and the complainant.

Cowboy ideas about the offender being dramatically carted away minutes after calling the police are unrealistic in my experience.

Even if eventually the person is spoken to by police he will be released on bail, and is free to return to the conference the next day.

Unless the conference organisers do something about it.

please stop.

paulj — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:33:13 +0000

Before you make concrete in your mind that version of events, you may wish to read this alternative account of the events that lead to the accusations around Assange: http://t.co/K4SIHRP

(Warning for those who don't have an istyosty plugin installed: It's a dailymail link, but this one is at least interesting, and its author claims to be basing it on the actual police charges, combined with talking to associates of those involved. The latter of course not infrequently turns out to be highly biased / unreliable, but the author at least seems to try to differentiate what info came from what kind of source).

please stop.

vaurora — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 14:23:38 +0000

"Can retroactively withdraw consent" - bullshit, this is not an accurate description at all. I think this quote sums it up well:

"The New York Times reported that the two women claimed that "each had consensual sexual encounters with Mr. Assange that became nonconsensual.""

Basically, they started have sex, she said, "Okay, time for the condom!", he said, "Condom, schmondom" and proceeded against her wishes. Sorry, folks, but even after everyone has taken off all their clothes and are getting all snuggly, it's still possible to commit rape. Just imagine any number of things you would not like to have done to yourself while naked in bed. Go on, I'm sure you can think of something. Now imagine your next sex partner decided to do them to you and wouldn't take no for an answer. Also imagine that your sex partner is bigger and stronger than you and a worldwide hero and that thousands of self-righteous internet commenters will come to their defense.

If you think this is an okay way to have sex, do, please, post your name and photo so we can avoid you just as assiduously as Julian Assange. Thanks.

please stop.

jackb — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:57:30 +0000

I live in Europe

Considering how your enlightened European laws are sufficiently accommodating to arrest Julian Assange on trumped up charges I'm not sure that's something worth bragging about.

Coincidentally, did you notice that the crime he's being accused of only exists because of the radical feminist doctrine that women can retroactively withdraw consent? (men, of course, do not have this privilege)

What's the point anyway?

mpr22 — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 11:00:46 +0000

Those people need to get a grip. As a Brit who drinks, I can confidently state that British attitudes to alcohol are broken, and that nix's statement is entirely fair.

The dark side of open source conferences

Auders — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 09:40:15 +0000

> Sexual harassment is bad enough but why on earth weren't the police called when the assault happened?

This is beside the point. Whether or not the man was charged, people need to be aware that things like this do happen, and that measures should be taken by the organizers to avoid them (besides bringing in the police).

Oh, Joy! Another policy!

maco — Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:47:12 +0000

In the kissing episode, my arms worked pretty well for putting a stop to it. He stopped moving when a wall got in the way. And when I (and the lady next to me, who heard the kiss sound and saw the push) yelled at him, a handful of people took notice and tried to get him to leave. They didn't notice that he finally chose to leave when I did...and followed me, but I saw and headed toward where other people were.

Oh, and no, I wasn't the first person he'd gone after that day. The other had an experience much closer to Noirin's (except in this case, he tried to put her hands on his crotch).

The dark side of open source conferences

maco — Mon, 06 Dec 2010 22:06:37 +0000

They weren't called because she was perfectly capable of walking to the police station--and did so.

One for the timeline

Zomb — Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:48:00 +0000

Agreed. While Bruce is mostly right about the social education and the results for the personal skills of many engineers, his conclusion is based purely on correlation. Which is not an appropriate way to find a proof; in fact, it doesn't usually prove anything.

Correlation "analytics" found that computer gaming is the main and only cause of school rampages, or that we need more (sea) pirates in order to get the climate stable again.

One for the timeline

paulj — Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:14:20 +0000

I might have assumed that, except you explicitly referred to those disorders peculiar to programmers - which would be ASD. Perhaps instead you could avoid that instead? :)