LWN: Comments on "Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition"

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

cdmiller — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 22:18:06 +0000

"Well besides that 'focus-follows-mouse' is really really really horrible way to do things"

Heh, guess I've been doing things horribly since around 1993.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

Wol — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:28:39 +0000

I've got a netbook. (Aspire One, 9" widescreen)

I hate maximised windows.

So no it's NOT reasonable to assume windows will be maximised on a netbook.

Cheers,
Wol

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

pivot — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:16:33 +0000

I'd like to have a single menu bar for the normal desktop version as well. It just removes clutter from the screen.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

jspaleta — Thu, 29 Apr 2010 00:18:09 +0000

Did I mention phones?

No I'm talking about touch-centric devices that sit inside the existing boundaries of the netbook form factor. Smartbooks and netbooks with touch screens with either detachable or hidable keyboards. You don't have to be a phone to be touch-centric... you don't have to be a pure "tablet" to be touch-centric. Netbooks can be touch-centric too. And then there's crap like the Eee PC Touch T91SA which straddles the netbook and tablet category already. There are going to be a lot of these things.

Meego's netbook interface... the _desktop_ ui... is going to work with touch-centric devices with screen proportions the size of typical netbooks just fine and dandy. The UNE interface as descirbed by Shuttleworth won't. You take the Eee PC Touch T91SA and use it in netbook mode... the UNE interface design makes some sense. You spin that sucker around and use it in tablet mode and it doesn't.. not when you need to use mouse-overs our hot keys to get to application menus.

-jef

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

wmf — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:11:02 +0000

Developing a single UI to support touch or mouse/keyboard sounds difficult. Meego has separate UIs for netbooks and phones, so it's effectively two different OSes (reminds me of S60 vs. UIQ).

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

jspaleta — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:27:24 +0000

Here's the one thing that strikes me as odd.

Shuttleworth seems to be intent on not supporting touch-centric devices with the UNE interface. Like its a specific not designed for usage case.

That seems really short sighted to me for an interface meant to fill the space where netbooks live. The design decision to require a key press our a mouse over to make the application menu show up in the global bar...is going to be very very bad for touch-centric devices.

Now sure...it will work if you have a keyboard and a mouse/trackpad..but it seems like a very narrow set of design decisions given that the netbook space is gaining touch screen support. We know that touch-centric netbook/smartbook small form factors with detachable/hidable keyboards small are out there or coming and are going to compete in the same space as clamshell netbooks.

The design decision to require a mouse or a keyboard really seems at odds at where the device space is headed.

Compare that design decision with Moblin or Maemo or Meego...

Maemo had a global menu bar concept...with a drop-down application menu that works just fine with the touch-centric N810 and the N900

Meego... as stated that touch-centric is on their roadmap.

I just don't get the point of making design decisions for the UNE interface which aren't compatible with touch at this point. It just seems potentially short-sighted and limiting.

-jef

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

nye — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:17:28 +0000

>So I assume whatever window you have focus on will automatically update the menu contexts.

This means of course that you need to drag a window to the top of the screen if you ever want to use the menu, or you'll select something else on the way there. This might be okay on the netbook UI since it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to assume application windows will always be maximised, in which case the focus model becomes irrelevant. This is starting to sound quite reminiscent of Chrome OS.

But what's wrong with focus-follows-mouse? If ever I have to try using a computer using click-to-focus, I always eventually get so frustrated that I give up and decide to go and read a book or something.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

drag — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:31:10 +0000

> And how will this work with focus-follows-mouse? Not. I guess.

Well besides that 'focus-follows-mouse' is really really really horrible way to do things; The context of the menu will change with whatever window you have active.

So I assume whatever window you have focus on will automatically update the menu contexts.

Beyond the Mac

nix — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:27:33 +0000

Pie menus are about as usable as being punched repeatedly in the face.

Has this been experimentally tested? And can I pre-emptively decline to participate in any forthcoming test? I already have neckache and all that craning my neck around to figure out what different parts of the pie are meant to do would make it so much worse.

(The punching in the face wouldn't help matters, either.)

Beyond the Mac

error27 — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:43:22 +0000

You're not actually undermining Fitts's law, you're sort of rephrasing and restating part of it. Fitts's law is basically that closer targets are easier to hit than farther targets and bigger targets are easier than smaller targets. These things are likely to remain true for some time.

Beyond the Mac

mjthayer — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:31:28 +0000

> Instead, most anything that happens now (especially at Canonical) seems to be based on the idea that one does not need to do one's own usability testing if one can get Apple Inc. to do it for one for free.

That is a wonderfully charitable way of putting it. On the other hand I am all in favour of having the option of Apple-style menus. It fits in well with the tradition of letting users choose what is best for them, not to mention that it will encourage flexible GUI coding :)

Beyond the Mac

nye — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:15:29 +0000

>If people were really interested in improving application menus they would have gone over to pie menus long ago

By all the Gods I hope this never comes to pass.

Pie menus are about as usable as being punched repeatedly in the face.

Beyond the Mac

anselm — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:33:24 +0000

If people were really interested in improving application menus they would have gone over to pie menus long ago, which would have taken Fitts' Law right out of the equation.

Instead, most anything that happens now (especially at Canonical) seems to be based on the idea that one does not need to do one's own usability testing if one can get Apple Inc. to do it for one for free.

Beyond the Mac

pboddie — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:15:43 +0000

Although there are undoubtedly those who argue that this is the right thing to do because it's what the Mac does, and some of those people may actually have something resembling a proper argument in claiming that the reduced screen space has to be more efficiently used than having menu bars at the top of each window, it should be noted that back in the days when vertical resolutions were less than those of VGA, other solutions to this problem existed. RISC OS, for example, had pop-up application menus.

Of course, this doesn't stop people from bringing out their own versions of the now-extremely-worn-out Fitts' Law, even though pressing a button to open a menu right next to the pointer clearly undermines the alleged superiority of the "can't miss the top of the screen" global menu solution, especially in terms of assertions about what is "less effort" or "less thought" for the user.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

DOT — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:16:53 +0000

It is. It seems to be discontinued in KDE4. I guess Canonical is going to write a little module exposing Qt menus to dbus, as they said in the article Qt apps would also work.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

ikm — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:52:31 +0000

Is this KDE3?

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

Frej — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:03:04 +0000

If they are worried about vertical pixels they might try to fix the default font or spacing use in gtk treeview. Try to compare screens of itunes and rhythmbox list view...

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

DOT — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:37:03 +0000

http://files.fosswire.com/2008/03/kdemacosmenubar.png

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

DOT — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:26:33 +0000

All apps are maximized.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

ikm — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:12:29 +0000

How do you turn it on?

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

miekg — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:01:19 +0000

And how will this work with focus-follows-mouse? Not. I guess.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

Los__D — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:24:24 +0000

"I'm on a regular 12" notebook, not a netbook"
Same thing, different word.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

jspaleta — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 02:07:00 +0000

How far will they go? Something involving the word "cloud" most likely.

-jef

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

xnox — Wed, 28 Apr 2010 01:11:59 +0000

I bet the global menu will have app-indicators & you will not be able to autohide it.
(tongue-in-cheek) "It's human! Problem Solved"

Also can you give an example which app-indicator does a notification without showing a bouble? Messeging menu emits both: Popup & Changes app-indicator icon. The "required restart" only changes icon color and menu text in the login/shutdown indicator but to be honest I was always annoyed by those popups "Restart is Required....."

It seems that Ayatana Team are trying to achieve total separation of application and its state E.g. your app will receive a callback when menu item is clicked but it's up to user to decide where/how the menu is actually rendered, you can notify the user but the indicator/popup will happen depending on user machine and etc. I wonder how far they will go with these inovations.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

jwb — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:29:18 +0000

I have a hard time imagining how this menu bar is going to fit in there with all the other crap. I spent a few minutes today uncluttering my panel so I could see the application icons, and I'm on a regular 12" notebook, not a netbook.

By the way, I would like to point out that the notification area (or whatever they are calling it) which alerts you to your incoming messages is pretty much not compatible with the panel's autohide feature. When the panel autohides, I think the message notification should pivot to using OSD notification instead of panel icons.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

DOT — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:01:51 +0000

KDE has had an official global menu mode for a long time. This is not something where KDE is getting screwed.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

khc — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:44:47 +0000

He addressed Qt applications in the article...

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

ikm — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:40:23 +0000

Does this mean it's going to be the same way as in Mac OS? I wonder what they would do to make Qt applications give up their menus. Develop patches for the library? Or just exclude all Qt apps from this edition? Well, good luck, Mark.

Shuttleworth: A global menu for Ubuntu 10.10 Netbook Edition

maney — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:24:09 +0000

...wanting to make the most of vertical space has driven the decision to embrace the single menu approach.

Why, I think I have been saying nothing else for years.