LWN: Comments on "Study: Attacks on package managers" https://lwn.net/Articles/289883/ This is a special feed containing comments posted to the individual LWN article titled "Study: Attacks on package managers". en-us Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:50:23 +0000 Fri, 19 Sep 2025 02:50:23 +0000 https://www.rssboard.org/rss-specification lwn@lwn.net Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290993/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290993/ mdz@debian.org <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> This is typically due to a broken transparent proxy, or similar network anomaly, between you and your chosen package mirror. </pre></div> Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:35:44 +0000 Debian security https://lwn.net/Articles/290490/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290490/ justincappos <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> (Disclosure: I'm an author of the study) I agree with you that using a security repository significantly reduces the vulnerability to attack. This doesn't protect against the "endless data" attack we describe that can be used by a mirror to crash clients, but this is not as big of a threat as compromising the client. (Does Debian need to contact so many mirrors by default?) There are several other minor issues that remain and may impact Debian users that we didn't see discussed here. First, there is no authentication that you are talking with the security repo, so a MITM attacker can still launch attacks by masquerading as the repo. HTTPS with correct certificate checking would prevent this, hence the HTTPS ("Bad research at its best") suggestion. :) Second if the security repo fails or is not contactable from a client (non-transitive connectivity, etc.) then the mirrors can attack clients by replaying content from the security repo. Third, clients who use netselect-apt, etc. should be aware that they are likely to remove the security repo from their list of mirrors and thus become vulnerable. In general we found that Debian's practice of using a security repository is effective in protecting their users from replay / freeze attacks in the majority of cases for users with default configurations. There is another issue with Debian that we didn't bring up on the web pages because we felt there was already too much loosely connected content. We briefly looked at the developer update process and if I understand correctly from reading the documentation any developer can update any package (they are encouraged not to except in extreme situations but have the ability to). Furthermore, if I understand correctly there are thousands of keys in the developer database so really this means that a compromise of any key allows an attacker to upload any package. Also there are keys as short as 768 bits and as old as 1993. I'm not a crypto expert so I don't really know how to quantify risk, but both of those numbers trigger a mental alarm. Anyways, I was hoping that you could also clarify / correct / confirm any of this information as well. Thanks, Justin Cappos </pre></div> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:20:47 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290481/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290481/ justincappos <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> There is an additional problem with BitTorrent or other P2P solutions that hasn't been mentioned in the discussion here. When you download the current version of a package, you are commonly doing so because you are upgrading an old version. So when downloading a package from an untrusted party (like a mirror) you disclose that you are running outdated software to that party. This is obviously bad because they may be able to root you, etc. Using something like BitTorrent increases the effect because now a much larger group of people with a lower barrier to entry are aware of you requesting a package. I don't think this is a good trade-off given the current status quo. </pre></div> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:48:57 +0000 Deficiencies wrt. CentOS https://lwn.net/Articles/290477/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290477/ justincappos <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> I've posted a few corrections on the original blog entry. I'll post here as well. Hello, I'm one of the authors of the study. I wanted to first of all thank you for commenting on our research. One of the major benefits we hoped would come from making this public is that the Linux community would become more aware and interested in fixing the problems we point out. I also wanted to respond to several of the issues you brought up in your blog post. First, I appreciate you pointing out that many distributions check to see if their mirrors are current and try to remove mirrors that are not. We under-emphasized this in the webpage and other documents because we did not view this as a mechanism used to detect a malicious party (we thought the intent was to detect negligent administrators and broken scripts). As I'm sure you and the savvy reader are aware, it is possible for a web server to serve different content to different users. We examined our web request logs from our CentOS mirror and I believe we can identify the "checking bot" IP addresses. If we were malicious, we could serve "good" content to your checking bot and "malicious" content to other users. I would be happy to provide what I believe to be the IPs used to check if a mirror is current to you offline for verification / rebuttal. However, since you view this information as important to the security of your users, I will not list the information here. Additionally, I wanted to mention that we found significant security problems with Fedora's MirrorManager (our FAQ talks about how it can be used to target attacks). However, other redirectors we looked at (like Download Redirector for OpenSUSE) do improve security in a similar manner to what you describe. I was wondering if we could talk more offline about how your mirror list redirection works so we can discuss the potential for abuse? I also wondered if you might want to look in detail at the other attacks page of the web site and the technical report which mentions detailed information about flaws in YUM. We would be happy to discuss the feasibility of attacks that target these issues with you. However, I will point out one attack that is extremely simple that I hope illustrates there is a real danger to your users. If I control a mirror and you attempt to retrieve a file from my mirror, I can return an endless stream of data which (on YUM) will fill the disk and crash the client system (stopping logging, corrupt databases, etc.). This is obviously a real threat to all of your users regardless of any mirror redirection strategies you perform. Anyways, we thank you for taking a look at our research and hope to hear more rebuttal / confirmation in the future. Thanks, Justin Cappos </pre></div> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:42:55 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290419/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290419/ i3839 <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> I was more thinking about distro's multicasting package updates and everyone being able to pick them up. Sending a package update ten times a day for ten days means almost everyone has the chance to pick it up. Uploading a file a hundred times instead of once per user uses much less bandwidth if you've more than a few hundred users. Bandwidth usage can be controlled on the client side by choosing how many streams are read simultaneously. Throw in a traditional client-server thing to retrieve lost packets or missed updates, and to enable people with crappy ISPs or routers which don't support multicast, and you've a complete solution. Of course multicast has its downsides and troubles, so you'd want to use Source Specific Multicast, and IGMPv3 support is needed for that. No idea how well (home/ISP) routers do that though. </pre></div> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:41:45 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290374/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290374/ hickinbottoms <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> No, they're not signed. This means the SHA1/MD5 checks only protect you from corruption during the download (or subsequently on disk, before the package has been built). You can prove this yourself - you can modify the downloaded package and regenerate those hashes with a "ebuild ... digest" command, so there's no secret to it. Portage is, I believe, quite vulnerable to compromised mirrors at present. I believe the groundwork to GPG-signing (not sure if that covers the package only, or whether it includes the metadata) has been done some time ago, but it's not progressed to the point where that's utilised yet. </pre></div> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:08:35 +0000 Deficiencies wrt. CentOS https://lwn.net/Articles/290186/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290186/ dag- <p> The study (and especially the way it is being advertised) is seriously lacking any insight in how yum works (on CentOS). The impact of 'being in the mirrorlist' is really reduced by a number of things and makes the motives of the author(s) of the paper somewhat questionable. (Attention grabbing ?) </p> <p> We have blogged about this: <ul> <a href="http://dag.wieers.com/blog/package-manager-vulnerability-study-flawed">http://dag.wieers.com/blog/package-manager-vulnerability-study-flawed</a><br> <a href="http://www.hughesjr.com/content/view/22/1/">http://www.hughesjr.com/content/view/22/1/</a> </ul> as appeared on <a href="http://planet.centos.org/">Planet CentOS</a>. </p> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 07:54:58 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290357/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290357/ dirtyepic <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> in many cases in the time it takes the BT client to contact the tracker, receive the seed/peer data, and then establish connections to each of these seed/peers, you could have downloaded the file directly several times over. and you never get high transfer rates right off the bat with BT. It usually takes a few minutes to get up to a decent speed. </pre></div> Thu, 17 Jul 2008 05:02:43 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290247/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290247/ MattPerry Today I'm getting this error: <blockquote> GPG error: http://security.ubuntu.com hardy-security Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG 40976EAF437D05B5 Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key &lt;ftpmaster@ubuntu.com&gt;Failed to fetch http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy-updates/main/binary-i386/Packages.bz2 Hash Sum mismatch <p> Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead. </blockquote> If I try to move ahead and installed I get a bold warning that packages can't be authenticated. No suggestions are provided on how to fix the problem. I don't know what I can do except back up my files and reinstall Ubuntu. Wed, 16 Jul 2008 18:17:06 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290245/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290245/ bronson <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> You might have missed this line in my post? <font class="QuotedText">&gt; Any decent bittorrent client will allow you to download just the files that you want and ignore everything else.</font> </pre></div> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:48:42 +0000 Surely package signing already solves this? https://lwn.net/Articles/290234/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290234/ tzafrir <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> I would like the CDs to contain signed repositories as well. A valid mirror and an up-to-date mirror are not necessarily the same thing. </pre></div> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:04:54 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290198/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290198/ epa Checking the signature is a good thing and I'm not blaming that at all. I am kvetching about the corrupted mirror site existing in the first place. Removing the signature check, obviously, would not improve things. Better error reporting of 'the download failed and the file was truncated' before even attempting the signature check would be helpful, but not essential. <blockquote>What would be good would be failover handling in the package manager so you didn't need to see that message at all.</blockquote>Yes. Some kind of client library that automatically handles selecting an upstream server (or more than one, if the download is to be parallelized), checks for data consistency, and restarts or switches servers if the consistency check fails. Bittorrent is one example of a protocol that handles all this, with the added bonus that nodes can share data between each other (as when two machines on the same network both need to update), and that setting up a traditional mirror site using cron jobs and perl scripts is not necessary (just start up the Bittorrent program and tell it how much bandwidth and disk space to use). Some kind of intelligent http frontend would also do the job. Of course you still need to check package signatures after the download has completed successfully. Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:49:27 +0000 Why not torrent https://lwn.net/Articles/290196/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290196/ epa <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> I think you answered your own argument: "If it's faster for you, switch mirror." The point is that users should not have to care about switching mirrors, and (with somewhat less importance) administrators should not have to care about setting up mirrors and fixing the various things that can go wrong with them. Bittorrent is a more complex protocol, but it is often simpler to use and maintain. Let the computer do the hard work of figuring out which site is the nearest and which site has which data. (I have two Fedora machines on my local network; I could spend disk space and bandwidth setting up a full mirror but it would be a hassle and download more than I need. An alternative is to set up a caching http proxy - but if Bittorrent were used, the machines would just share the downloaded data automatically.) It need not necessarily use uplink capacity for the end users. A leeching Bittorrent client would be fine for downloading package updates. I proposed setting up Bittorrent servers instead of traditional mirror sites - such a server would be a regular Bittorrent node configured to participate in the package torrents. Since the server is just there to provide speeded-up downloads to the users, it can run in generous mode where it will happily provide data to leeching clients. Distribution of torrent metadata is indeed a single point of failure. But so is distributing a list of mirror sites. Whatever update method you use, you must start with a single point somewhere. </pre></div> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:43:08 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290194/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290194/ epa <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Makes you wonder why Bittorrent isn't built on top of UDP? (Indeed, HTTP GET requests might as well have been be UDP instead of TCP... but that is a discussion for another day.) </pre></div> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:29:38 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290182/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290182/ motk <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Bittorrent is not a hammer, and not everything is a nail. </pre></div> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:44:27 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290180/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290180/ motk <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Bittorrent uses a ridiculous amount of bandwidth, which is not always Cheap. </pre></div> Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:39:14 +0000 Surely package signing already solves this? https://lwn.net/Articles/290037/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290037/ njs <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> One could sign packages in such a way that a replay attack was impossible... assuming that the client has an accurate clock. Have a root-level signature re-issued each day over the entire repository, that also includes the date that it is generated. When talking to a mirror, you can check this root file, and if it's more than a day or two old, that's a bad mirror and should be ignored. (This also catches mirrors that are merely stale, which can be a problem sometimes for entirely non-malicious reasons...) Because the date is signed, the mirror can't pretend to be up-to-date. Of course, the signature has to also cover the packages in the repository or it's no use -- a malicious mirror could serve up a fresh root cert and stale packages, and verifying a signature made in the naive way over the entire repository would be prohibitively expensive. (Heck, *generating* such a signature would be prohibitively expensive...) But one could create a tree of signatures to mitigate this -- the root signs a list of package/version/hash, and then you just have to download the root, the list of package versions (which you usually download anyway), and the actual packages you want... If clients don't have accurate clocks, you could instead put the current root signature on a single centralized server run by a trusted party (i.e. the distribution itself), and have everyone fetch it directly; this would be reasonable scalable, since the central box would only have to serve one few-hundred-byte file instead of being a full mirror. Not that I expect anyone to do this, but it's fun to think about. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:11:48 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290123/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290123/ drag <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> I know it sounds stupid, but are you sure that they are throttling bittorrent? I seen that Comcast had a investigation on them and all that, but for most cases I think that it's because of bad bandwidth management on the part of end users is what is causing most 'throttling'. For example.. At my house I use Cox Cable for Internet. For a long long time I was able to run bittorrent quite well, but after some changes they made I started running into big issues with losing packets and huge increases in latency of my network connection. I was only able to get a third or a forth of the speed of the downloads that I used to get, and this was after a 'network upgrade'. And upload speeds were very poor since other peers were getting disconnected. At first blush it seemed very obvious that this was due to some sort of throttling or network performance shaping on the part of Cox. But in fact it wasn't. ---------------------------------- The deal is, if I understand it correctly, is that Bittorrent is a TCP oriented network protocol. That is when you send a packet or at least initiate a data transfer you have to have 'ack' packets acknowledge the connection. TCP is connection-oriented protocol. Home-style network connections are hugely asymmetrical. The download speed vastly outperforms the upload speeds. So Bittorrent does upload and download simultanously. As these ISPs increase their download speeds dramatically they do little to increase their upload speeds. So with BT the upload becomes a huge bottleneck since even if you rarely saturate the download it's very very likely that you saturate the upload. And what happens then is you end up having this huge queue of uploaded packets. Among those packets being stuck in router limbo are those TCP ack packets, and they don't make it back up to their destination in time you start having disconnects and all sorts of nasty network performance problems. I found that the controls offered by bittorrent clients were very inadequate. This is due to the fact that there are probably multiple BT clients running at the same time as well as other network traffic. So the solution is to have quality assurance rules on your home's router. You can't control what is being sent to you, but you can have control over the priority of packets leaving your network. So you have to throttle the ports your using for bittorrent _yourself_ and then give very high priority to ack packets. Usually your going to have to limit your BT traffic to 80-90% of maximum network bandwidth to get the best performance. There is a 'wondershaper' set of scripts that can do this, but I found that a modified setup of that designed for Shoreline firewall/router is the best. Now my bittorrent downloads are at least 4-5 times as fast as they used to be and I have no network latency problems. -------------------------------- So I figure if your experiencing not only slow BT downloads, but huge increases in ping latency and some limited packet loss then it's not your ISP's fault (except for the excessively asymmetrical nature of their network). It's your's and your router needs to be configured to do quality assurance. Of course if your ISP is actually doing throttling then none of this will help you. Hopefully you can find another company to go through. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:51:14 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290130/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290130/ nix <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> `X' days doesn't work for any fixed value of X. A better check is to check that the package date is not much older than the last time you downloaded a set of updates which should have included that package (`much' introduced to allow time for the package to be uploaded, inter-mirror propagation delays, et al). Downside: this means that after Debian's ftpmasters sit on a package for five hundred years they have to get it re-signed before putting it into the repo ;) and I'm not sure what implications it has for automatically-promoted repositories such as Debian testing: perhaps the Date header should be updated, and the signing repeated, by the (trusted) software with a silly name which does the promotion (I can't remember that name right now, it always drops out of my head). If attackers take *that* over, we're all dead anyway. (sorry for the jab at ftpmasters gone, I couldn't resist ;} ) </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:49:44 +0000 Bittorrent and small files https://lwn.net/Articles/290129/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290129/ nix <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Say rather that it doesn't work well with small transfers. My impression is that it has very slow start, so for transfers taking less than a few minutes, ordinary FTP is going to be noticeably faster. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 18:45:59 +0000 Kind of weak https://lwn.net/Articles/290072/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290072/ salimma <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> There is a 'yum-fastestmirror' plugin, so if you know the target computer is using it, you can set up a mirror a small number of hops away and have a good chance of being preselected. Signing and dating the package list is still the safest solution. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:35:23 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290069/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290069/ salimma <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Multicast would be useful for a sysadmin wanting to update multiple computers all at once, but otherwise, data still has to be transmitted multiple times. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:30:03 +0000 One solution to this problem https://lwn.net/Articles/290048/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290048/ jmm <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> security.debian.org isn't a single machine, but a round-robin setup of several hosts administrated by Debian. Last time someone published the stats they were serving ~ 30 MB/s (which was two days after the last DSA being published, I suppose the peaks are higher) </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:22:17 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290047/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290047/ job <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> No, it is not. The system of signatures just prevented you from downloading data from a "misbehaving node" (i.e. corrupted mirror), and you blame the system? The mirroring IS handled automatically, AND you are protected from bad data. What would be good would be failover handling in the package manager so you didn't need to see that message at all. It would also be desirable to protect from the attack described in the article, perhaps using timestamped and signed package indexes? </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 12:07:45 +0000 Why not torrent https://lwn.net/Articles/290045/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290045/ job <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> I can think of a few reasons. Bittorrent is more complex (which would make the install program larger, and might not fit on a netboot ram image). It is slower. (If it's faster for you, switch mirror.) It uses uplink capacity for the end users (which some may have to pay for). Distribution of torrent metadata is a single point of failure. So in short, it's not robust, it's slow, and it's complicated. You make it sound like more modern equals better, which should be obvious it is not true. Otherwise we would not use a web browser when we have 3D games. Different uses, different protocols. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:56:24 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290044/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290044/ job <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Are all the ebuilds cryptographically signed now? Last time I checked they were not. So the reason you needn't worry about the attacks described in the article is that the verifications aren't there in the first place. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:46:22 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290043/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290043/ Zenith <p>Quoting rgmoore further up in the discussion:</p> <p><blockquote> Someone on Slashdot pointed out a much nastier potential attack. The process is simple: 1. Set up a mirror. 2. Wait for the distro you're mirroring to send out a security update for a package with a remotely exploitable hole. 3. Root the box of everybody who starts to download the updated package. The mirror can look completely legitimate, because it just passively harvests the IDs of vulnerable computers. You probably want to pass off the job of rooting vulnerable computers to a separate botnet to keep your mirror looking squeaky clean. </blockquote></p> <p>So yes, a sort of loophole, but not one you can do much about I would think, besides from the whole "trusted mirrors only" scheme mentioned here in the discussion.</p> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:17:55 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290038/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290038/ tzafrir <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> This seems to be a high level of paranoia. apt-tor, anybody? </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 11:01:00 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290036/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290036/ nhippi <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> To put it more plainly: The attacker cannot use a malicious mirror inject old content against security.debian.org, since security.debian.org isn't mirrored by third parties. Testing users could become vulnerable. Mitigating against this would be relatively easy to implement, as the Signed "Release" file already has A "Date" field. - Just check that it isn't older than X days. As a added bonus, users will start noticing if their mirror has problems getting updates. One option the attacker has is transparent proxies, but then again you are in big trouble anyway (mmm.. cookies..) if a cracker manages to root your ISP's transparent proxy. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 10:18:55 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290033/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290033/ epa <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> The existence of flaky, corrupted mirror sites is another argument in favour of dropping old-style mirrors and using Bittorrent or some other protocol that handles the mirroring automatically and is robust against misbehaving nodes. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:45:28 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290032/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290032/ epa <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> That is the wrong approach. You are suggesting there should be verification so that only trustworthy people (by some measure) can set up a mirror site. But it will always be possible for bad guys to slip through the net. Even the US nuclear weapons programme, with the strictest possible vetting of participants, contained spies. And even a well-meaning mirror site can be taken over by an attacker. Better to make sure the update system is secure so that even with total control of one or more mirrors an attacker cannot push out bad packages or cause a denial of service for more than a few minutes. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:43:34 +0000 Bittorrent and small files https://lwn.net/Articles/290030/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290030/ epa <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> What makes you say that Bittorrent does not work well with small files? </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:38:06 +0000 Nastier attack https://lwn.net/Articles/290027/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290027/ tzafrir <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> ... Alternative (3) "Root" a whole bunch of NAT routers. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:18:57 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290024/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290024/ jond <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; It doesn't inspire confidence because I'm not a cryptography expert,</font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; nor do I desire to be one. As an end user, all I see is an error </font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; that I do not understand. I &gt; don't know why the signature is invalid</font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; and the error doesn't give me any guidance on what &gt; the significance </font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; is nor how to correct it.</font> I think I agree with you here that the UI side needs work. <font class="QuotedText">&gt; It's using TCP, not UDP, to download the data. Shouldn't TCP should </font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; ensure that I'm getting the correct data?</font> TCP would protect you against the data being corrupted in transit from the mirror to yourself. This looks like corruption at the mirror end or (in the case of a bad transparent proxy) stale data being served up from a cache that doesn't correspond to the package index. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:50:22 +0000 How to fix it https://lwn.net/Articles/290023/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290023/ zeridon <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Hmm the points said are a bit interesting but untill now everyone forgets that there is ibiblio and it's sibling Osprey &amp; Permaseed Basically with that soft they can implement a mirror and BT with seeds directly from the storrage and on the big pipe. Last month it was prety usefull 2-3 hours delay from the oficial eclipse release and pushing hard for the torrents. It made some diffference. The server wasn't so bogged down, and as eclipse is just sw nobody kills the torrent so we have more seeds :) </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:12:27 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290020/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290020/ MattPerry <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; Sometimes, however, this error indicates a "problem" such as not</font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; bothering to run update for a few weeks and the key has expired.</font> Are the keys really being regenerated that quickly? What is the reason for doing that rather than keeping a key for a long time? I wonder if that might have something to do with my problem. I usually don't update my servers unless I see a post on the security-announce lists indicating that there's an update for a package that I use. I can sometimes go for a month or two (or more) before running apt-get update. The Ubuntu system that I was attempting to upgrade today was last powered on sometime in May. <font class="QuotedText">&gt; How will you identify a real security issue in the noise?</font> I agree. Right now it seems like "the boy who cried wolf." </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:02:23 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290017/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290017/ MattPerry <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; And why doesn't it inspire confidence? The invalid signature protected</font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; you from a corrupt download (my guess is that these are usually truncated</font> <font class="QuotedText">&gt; or partially transferred files).</font> It doesn't inspire confidence because I'm not a cryptography expert, nor do I desire to be one. As an end user, all I see is an error that I do not understand. I don't know why the signature is invalid and the error doesn't give me any guidance on what the significance is nor how to correct it. I know that signed packages and package lists are supposed to protect me, which is why I sit up and take notice when I see the error. The best that I've been able to do in this situation is to try the update again and hope the error goes away. Usually the error will not happen when I update the package list a second time. Occasionally, the error will persist no matter how many times I update and I just try again later. That is what happened with Ubuntu today. I ran the "check updates" from the update manager five times over about 15 minutes and I continued to receive the same error. If I try the updates tomorrow, I expect that it will be fine. It's using TCP, not UDP, to download the data. Shouldn't TCP should ensure that I'm getting the correct data? I wouldn't expect for the transfer to be corrupt several times in a row. I could understand if I only saw this error once, but I see it often enough that I don't think a corrupted download is the problem. I also see it with Debian and Ubuntu, so it's not something restricted to one distribution. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:44:59 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290019/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290019/ jamesh <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> Occasionally it also indicates a badly behaved almost-transparent proxy sitting between you and the mirror. </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:35:20 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290018/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290018/ k8to <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> The reason it doesn't inspire confidence is that this error occurs during normal operation. Sometime this error indicates a problem of grabbing an inconsistent set of files from a round-robin type situation. Yes, the system has saved me from data corruption, theoretically. Realistically, it is an embarassment that these inconsistencies are encounterable in normal configurations. For example, chosing a host such as http.us.debian.org will often result in data inconsistency during updates. Why is this advertised as a viable mirror selection if it does not work reliably? Sometimes, however, this error indicates a "problem" such as not bothering to run update for a few weeks and the key has expired. Once this error indicated that the key had expired before the new key was even made available, and so the web of trust simply did not extend from one administration key to the next. Every user of debian testing encountered this during one transition. Perhaps you begin to see the problem? This thing pops up all the time to suggest a problem which is not caused by incorectly signed or unsigned files. How will you identify a real security issue in the noise? </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:29:08 +0000 Study: Attacks on package managers https://lwn.net/Articles/290015/ https://lwn.net/Articles/290015/ afalko <div class="FormattedComment"><pre> All files downloaded from Gentoo have SHA1 and SHA256 sum associated with them. If a file does not match the file the developer was using, the user will receive a digest error and the package manger will not continue. Does any one see any loopholes with this scheme? </pre></div> Tue, 15 Jul 2008 05:55:31 +0000