LWN: Comments on "Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)"

Copyright deal ... Personal, not for profit use

Harland — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:26:36 +0000

 In the first, an action of the government to affect its citizens rights 
in such a profound way, and yet be dealt with behind closed doors outside 
the scrutiny and critique of said citizens is appalling to say the least.  
I could hope a chapter from the history of open (libertas) software could 
able the government to understand how apt an open design process is to 
information sharing and development. But, precisely the opposite is their 
reason for the clock and dagger.
 This motion on their part is plain to their efforts to push forward a 
controlling, proprietary interest in how the information of its citizens 
is regarded.  Our freedoms are held subject to business interests which 
concede to a small minority.  I am afraid.  This, if not dealt with 
appropriately, will be a brick in the path towards 'virtual' sedition by 
any citizen, when and if the need arises, as deemed by said business 
interests.
 How can any citizen protect itself except by becoming more paranoid or 
totally unencumbered (everything completely in the open), both of which is 
no solution but a reaction to self preservation - liberty without 
privacy ... not liberty.
	
 If on the other hand, this is subjected to an open forum, or at the least 
formal critique, a consensus to maintain privacy and fair use, as well as 
protecting (within reason!) business interests, may be reached to benefit 
all its citizens and not limit reasonable freedoms and rights.
 The act of counterfeit relies on the ownership of rights on information 
or materials and how those rights of ownership are passed on to users.  
The use by others and  the right to copy by a select user, i.e. copyright, 
of 'owned' materials or information in the digital age is so garbled (Can 
I use it if I can't copy it?) that a myriad of 'use' licences are required 
to just conduct simple business.
 Personal, not for profit use should be a standard agreement and right.  
Furthermore, and this is important, this should apply no matter how the 
information or material is obtained - note, this about the 'use'! (this is 
the tough part, but if you think long and hard, any restriction to this 
will corrupt liberty and privacy).  The method of how it is obtained 
should be the only actionable restraint, thus governable.
 
 But take care and note, this core reasoning will be held far from the 
debate, where the intent is to put a stake in any and all 'use' cases, 
personal or otherwise.  And once this is so buried under phrase after 
phase of legislative BS, to back up and shovel out the stall to retrieve 
the basic concepts will need the dedicated lifetime of those willing to 
get covered in said BS.

For sure!

zotz — Fri, 30 May 2008 21:08:20 +0000

I am sure that people in jail violate copyright (as the big players would have it at least)
every day as it is so putting someone in jail as a preventive measure will likely fail on that
point.

all the best,

drew
It's 90 degrees outside but with the humidity it feels like 101 degrees but with the wind
chill factor it only feels like 96 degrees.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

ekj — Fri, 30 May 2008 06:37:54 +0000

My bad. The "poor sod" uses english regularily for the last few decades, including as a
journalist for Lwn, I wasn't under the impression that anyone in particular was named link.
(except for the chap in Zelda, but that is really completely beside the point)

I'll rephrase.

Hi,
How about posting a link to your sisters music ? It's nice hearing about various creative
works created by people with ties to Lwn-people, and I personally would certainly atleast give
it a listen.

In general, we don't like spam-smelling self-promotion, but when you brag about the music of
your sister, you could atleast give us the possibility of judging for ourselves, and thus
promote her music a tiny little bit too."

I was sorta assuming that any musician that wants their work spread today would be available
on the web somewhere. Better ?

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

niner — Thu, 29 May 2008 21:26:03 +0000

Being an ESL speaker myself, I offer an alternate "translation": Maybe he just wants a 
link (URL) to your sister's music as promotion (as in advertising). You said, she wants it 
to get into the hands of as many people as possible. Maybe you just made him 
curious ;)

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

felixrabe — Thu, 29 May 2008 20:34:32 +0000

Outrageous.

Awful madnes is on the way!

kindaunique2 — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:55:38 +0000

Even here in Russia we can see pirates busted.And actually everyone feels that punishment for
selling few crappy CDs which is almost equal to punishment for KILLING SOMEONE is definitely
OVERKILL and only possible because copyright mafia pushed according laws by bribing\lobbying
authorities.Now we can see how all this madness is going even further to trash very basic
human rights in favor of one right - the copyright.As someone told about "...like a fire", we
seems to have emergency situation and should stop fire or we'll definitely get burned.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

kindaunique2 — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:45:34 +0000

At least you can be returned back if they're in doubt.And WTF I should grant someone access to
MY PRIVATE FILES?It's part of my PRIVATE LIFE, after all!What the h*ll someone should be
allowed to enter my private life so deeply and ugly?

Extending freedom

kindaunique2 — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:42:17 +0000

USA and Canada are definitely getting fascist countries or so if they're willing to disregard
a whole bunch of legal rights and freedoms in favor of d*mn*d copyright.Surely covering truly
fascist actions as "fighting with terrorism" or "fighting with pirates" is a popular today.

IMHO really "pirates" are not those who copies soft or music or whatever but rather those
criminals who is willing to invade into our private life!Pirate still means armed man who is
conducting crime.It is RIAA, MPAA and other are really evil pirates, highwaymans, mafia and
criminals.Duh!

Copyright is good.Up to SOME degree only!

kindaunique2 — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:33:31 +0000

The f...ng copyright mafia like Hollywood, RIAA, MPAA and other nothing-producing
zero-cost-duplicating companies who only "produces" racket, bribing ("lobbying", who cares?)
to push "comfortable" laws and other similar ba$ta®d$ are surely thinking that everyone should
guard their f@t a$$e$ and disregard someone else rights in favor of their copyright.
(actually, however this right often heavily abused and actually means that they're granted
quite funny right to produce nothing new for a whole decades and conduct racket and bribing
without fear of getting sued)

For sure!

kindaunique2 — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:23:11 +0000

Yeah, also you all (including above poster) should be JAILED ASAP since (at least in theory)
you all can occasionally violate copyrights somewhere in future.To prevent this possibility
you all should be jailed so you can not violate copyright.

Wow, Gitler was just innocent kid compared to these ba$ta®d$

kindaunique2 — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:18:48 +0000

Amazing! Mind police just arrived? Even Gitler and Stalin both failed to establish mind police
due to lack of technologies. Now, "democratic" countries are willing to "fix" this? This world
is surely going MAD! Have you ever read "1984" by Orwell? The WORST sci-fi writers predictions
could became true! :(((

Hey, Canadian guys, you MUST cause this to fail, otherwise whole world will get VERY BAD
example and actually so-called-democracy will end up as an awful totalitarian crap.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

nix — Thu, 29 May 2008 16:58:20 +0000

Neat interpretation. I wonder how confused the poor sod got when he 
realised that everyone on the site seems to have the same nick :)

(And, well, I suppose it is promotion in a sense, but I suspect there are 
more efficient ways to promote music than getting it into the hands of 
random border guards! It's more that this is copyrighted work that normal 
mortals can understand --- i.e., not a bunch of code --- that I'm not the 
copyright holder for, and that I can legitimately and easily get to make 
lots of copies of and carry around. Plus she suggested it so it's only 
right that it be her work that gets used. :) )

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

Duncan — Thu, 29 May 2008 16:15:41 +0000

While I'm English-only myself, I've lived and worked in mixed language 
environments much of my life so am used to interpreting the word 
reordering and similar that comes with ESL.  "Yoda-speak" isn't so 
unusual, here. =8^)  But FWIW this one did take a couple extra runs thru 
the parser here, too.

> Hi, link !

I'm guessing he mistook the [link] (comment URL linker) for your nick.  
ESL (English as a second language) and all that...

> We approve of creative family.

This would be a reference to the skills in your family, You're the 
computer guru, your sister's the musician, your cousin's an IP lawyer... 
Quite the family -- and that's what he's saying, IOW (taking a bit of 
liberty), "Quite the family!"

> Atleast you could offer -this- little promotion ! 

Some liberty here as well... "Hey, neat way to promote 
your sister's work!"

So you see it all makes sense; you just have to look at it from an angle 
native English speakers don't usually take. =8^)

HTH, Duncan

As criminal and illegal as it gets

Seegras — Thu, 29 May 2008 14:45:13 +0000

This is certainly illegal and a broad violation of about ANY Constitution and any democratic
juridical process. 

You can't go and give the police or the border guards judical power regarding  civil law
questions. 

The proponents of this "trade agreement" are obviously criminals for even suggesting this and
should be tried for high treason.

Not a chance!

cortana — Thu, 29 May 2008 14:29:58 +0000

Everything that is not permitted shall be disallowed.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

nix — Thu, 29 May 2008 13:56:54 +0000

That came out as gibberish from my native-English parser. Anyone willing 
to offer a translation? (What 'promotion'?)

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

tialaramex — Thu, 29 May 2008 12:45:59 +0000

Government is like fire*. It is useful, but also very dangerous. It cannot be made into a
loyal servant or a trusted friend. If we want the benefits we must be ever vigilant and keep
it on a tight rein. Wherever a suitable substitute is found we should use it because fire is
so dangerous, we stopped using candles and gas lamps to light our homes, and we should get
government out of the "intellectual property" business too, before we end up badly burned
(again).

* According to Google,  George Washington said this before me, in any case it is still true.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

ekj — Thu, 29 May 2008 10:59:36 +0000

Hi, link ! We approve of creative family. Atleast you could offer -this- little promotion !

Extending freedom

man_ls — Thu, 29 May 2008 06:27:41 +0000

Your president doesn't realize that people in most countries don't want his freedom. Not from a country that abducts and tortures people beyond its borders, that keeps almost 1% of its population imprisoned, treats tourists like criminals by taking their fingerprints, and so on.

Back to the matter at hand, do you people think that copyright madness has to get worse before it gets better?

Expanding liberty

janpla — Thu, 29 May 2008 05:20:22 +0000

Hmm, at one point it was about spreading The True Belief (TM) aka Christianity, then it was
spreading civilization through imperialism, the USSR wanted to spread Communism all over the
world - and now America is all about spreading a commoditized version of Freedom (TM). Funny
how it always involves wars of conquest and forcing our gifts on people.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

gorpon — Thu, 29 May 2008 05:07:44 +0000

"The new document is reported to be drafted by the Office of the United States Trade
Representative."

Part of the executive branch of the US government.  I'd like to contrast this with some the
president's remarks in 2004:

"The story of America is the story of expanding liberty: an ever-widening circle, constantly
growing to reach further and include more. Our nation's founding commitment is still our
deepest commitment: In our world, and here at home, we will extend the frontiers of freedom."

By "frontiers of freedom" perhaps he means the government's ability to search and seize
without due cause?

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

proski — Thu, 29 May 2008 01:57:20 +0000

What would it accomplish? It's not like the customs officers can change the law. A mass protest with clearly stated goals may work if it generates some publicity, but an individual protect would likely only annoy the wrong people.

And if you are going to carry some copyrighted material, consider carrying Linux CDs. It may work better than your sister's songs (admittedly, I'm not familiar with the later).

And how do you prove you're innocent?

JoeBuck — Wed, 28 May 2008 23:14:54 +0000

OK, I was confused because the first mention I saw of it was on boingboing, where Cory Doctorow (a Canadian) was urging Canadians to oppose it.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

nix — Wed, 28 May 2008 22:16:24 +0000

If this passes, I will make a point of passing through UK customs at least 
once per year (er, in each direction) with my pockets entirely filled with 
USB keys containing countless copies of my sister's music (obviously with 
her permission, duh, like other sane artists she wants as *many* copies 
out there as possible, not as *few*).

Hey, if they take it, so much the better: and also I'll be able to bring 
the hammer of Composer and Performer down on them (our cousin the IP 
lawyer would probably be interested too).

Muhahaa....

And how do you prove you're innocent?

rahvin — Wed, 28 May 2008 22:11:05 +0000

Not just Canada. You have to understand, this treaty is being negotiated with essentially the
group of 7. EU, Japan, USA and Canada. It's going to affect everyone in the "developed" world.
Treaties are a direct end run around our constitution as they have the weight of the
constitution and can overturn laws and rights like fair use. It's not supprising that the
current administration is engaged in these tactics. The hope is that the process can be
delayed until less radical people run the executive.

And how do you prove you're innocent?

JoeBuck — Wed, 28 May 2008 21:20:49 +0000

My laptop has MP3's that I obtained legally, but I have no way to prove that I obtained them legally. And MP3's produced by ripping from a CD that I bought might be legal in country A but illegal in country B.

Many open source conferences avoid the US, in part because of concerns that developers engaged in reverse engineering might be arrested. If Canada goes this route, it might also have to be crossed off of the list of free countries.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

marduk — Wed, 28 May 2008 21:08:59 +0000

What about software?  Could I get busted for carrying a copy of a Fedora CD across the border?

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

flewellyn — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:57:34 +0000

Don't our border guards have enough to do as it is?

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

bfields — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:20:45 +0000

a combination of other provision that would require all signing parties to make it illegal to host a search engine that includes links to copyrighted materials, even if *all* material linked to actually was provided by the copyright holder

Citation?

As stated that's just nonsensical--almost everything on the web is "copyrighted material" of one sort or another.

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

ahoogerhuis — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:15:03 +0000

Now, how is it proposed how these brownshirts will react when they find local mp3 files of
stuff that isn't known DRM'ed and owned by some Hollywood company?

-A

Copyright deal could toughen rules governing info on iPods, computers (Vancouver Sun)

Jonno — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:14:00 +0000

Well, what I find really disturbing about ACTA is not the border checking 
provision (as long as it isn't the UK you are going to, you can get around 
it using encryption) but a combination of other provision that would 
require all signing parties to make it illegal to host a search engine 
that includes links to copyrighted materials, even if *all* material 
linked to actually was provided by the copyright holder (and thus legal to 
download). That would effectively stop any independent artists from 
getting an online fan base, which is crucial for the survival of most 
independent artists.

Not a chance!

danieldk — Wed, 28 May 2008 20:09:24 +0000

I can only agree. How can border guards determine the legality of music on a given laptop,
except if it was all determinable through DRM?

Not a chance!

AnswerGuy — Wed, 28 May 2008 19:56:41 +0000

Having customs agents and the border guards of other countries on the lookout for bootleg CDs
and DVDs (in commercial quantities) would be feasible.  (One hopes they are already trained
and empowered to do so).

Having them search cell phones, MP3 players, PDAs and other devices for "infringing materials"
would be outrageously cumbersome, inefficient, ineffective, invasive and futile.

It's too obviously infeasible.  So we have to assume that this worser of the  old "bad cop,
badder cop" political gambit.  (They put out something so bad that no one can condone it, then
offer what they really wanted as a "compromise").

JimD