LWN: Comments on "The Grumpy Editor's next project"

Another Option: Postbooks

glikely — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:23:21 +0000

Hey Jon, I feel your pain. I've also spent a lot of time evaluating accounting packages so I could migrate away from that other package that is named with a 'Q'.

I think you should also take a hard look at Postbooks (http://www.xtuple.com/postbooks). I've found it ideal for my business (mostly consulting). When I decided I could no longer trust proprietary accounting systems I started looking at the open source options and came up with a list of requirements:

* Fully open data format
* Open source
* Network based (not tied to a single workstation)
* Multiple currencies
* Integrated vendor and customer records (and invoicing, POs, etc).
* GAAP

About two years ago I switched to LedgerSMB and used it with moderate success for day to day operations. It met all my requirements and the development team was responsive and motivated to produce a good product. However, after several serious problems with the software I became uncomfortable trusting it with my business records. I often experienced calculation errors which needed to be repaired by hand (very carefully!) in the database. Tax rate changes and foreign currency handling were particularly troublesome and reprinting invoices after a rate change would show incorrect values. Worse yet, at the end of the year it took a week worth of effort to produce a balanced set of books (mostly tracking down calculation errors). After about a year I migrated off of LedgerSMB and onto Postbooks.

Postbooks is the open source version of the commercial OpenMFG package from xTuple (http://www.xtuple.com). I've found it to be stable and relatively easy to use (as far as accounting software goes!). All of the data is stored in a Postgresql database along with stored procedures that implement the accounting logic. Foreign currencies are well supported and it meets all my needs for managing invoices and payables. But, most importantly, after a year of working with it I 100% trust it with my data.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

corbet — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:17:02 +0000

I've not forgotten it, and have been working on things when the time has been available. It will probably be a little while yet before I can write anything, though. Sorry...

The Grumpy Editor's next project

fyodor — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 01:09:24 +0000

expect a series of installments as your editor heads into the accounting jungle and tries to figure out whether it's possible to run a business completely on free software or not.

Great! Have you made any progress on this in the last 6 months? I'm sure many of us would love to read about it.

-Fyodor
Insecure.Org

The small business QckBcks lock-in

einhverfr — Mon, 04 Jun 2007 21:08:38 +0000

The latest versions of Quickbooks are not as difficult to migrate from as previous versions. So there is less lock-in from a data perspective. We, on the LedgerSMB project are working on solutions for that.

However, the larger issue at the moment, is that a lot of people are tied to Quickbooks' payroll services. I believe that the market is ripe for an open source US payroll solution, but I haven't seen any that I would trust (I don't use MySQL for financial applications).

Interestingly, Quickbooks inadequate inventory handling and rigidity regarding payroll is a major reason why customers of mine ask when we can migrate them (and the answer is sadly, maybe six months away).

Accounting systems

einhverfr — Thu, 31 May 2007 21:31:05 +0000

Regulatory issues are indeed a pain since every country introduces their own issues.

If you buy a doughnut in a coffee shop in Toronto, does PST apply? Well, it depends on what *else* you buy.

On the other hand, tracking proper creation of invoices, transit vouchers, and the like for Greek customers is an equal nightmare.

Hence the question of how extensible and customizeable a solution is.

web-based accounting

einhverfr — Thu, 31 May 2007 21:27:25 +0000

LedgerSMB 1.2.x has been a very painful branch (sort of like Apache 2.0.x). This was largely due to the fact that we started to refactor code from a codebase that was so utterly complex that nobody understands it properly. Also, many of the bugs we have corrected have also shown up in mainline SQL-Ledger branch, so....

My suggestion is to look towards LSMB 1.3 (current svn /trunk) to see where we are going with that. The releases will only get better as we get the codebase under some sort of sane and cunderstandable code structure. This will allow for a great deal more automated testing and more.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

einhverfr — Thu, 31 May 2007 21:17:58 +0000

I would recommend looking at LedgerSMB as a web-based accounting app. Disclaimer: I am highly involved in the project as a core developer.

We started as a fork of SQL-Ledger and have been focusing a great deal on nailing down the accounting and security logic of the application. The upcoming 1.3 release will feature:

role-based security (with real enforcement, unlike the codebase we inherited)

solid contact management and an ability for a customer to also be a vendor

RESTful web service interface

Vouchers and separation of duties

GAAP-compliant ways of correcting errors

and much, much more.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

einhverfr — Thu, 31 May 2007 21:11:02 +0000

I look forward to reading your reviews. I am involved in the LedgerSMB project.

I will say that I have not yet found an accounting package that meets everyone's needs perfectly. There are differing means of calculating inventory and cost of goods sold, and there are a number of other issues worth considering.

While we are working hard on LedgerSMB to overcome these obstacles to the extent they can be, I generally advise people to make reasonable decisions about how they want to keep their books before deciding on software to automate it. For example, if you want to do FIFO inventory, then Quickbooks is not an option because it uses the average cost method.

In this spirit, I would suggest that a good series might also cover issues like how inventory is calculated, how transparent a system is, and how extensible it is. These issues, combined with what you like or don't like, may give users more insight into what solutions would work best for them.

QB on Mac

amk — Tue, 15 May 2007 14:01:08 +0000

I tried out QB 2006/7 for the Mac, and discovered that the data files are actually SQLite databases; perhaps they're also SQLite on Windows.

To retrieve the value of one particular setting, at one point I ran the 'sqlite' command interpreter on the QB datafile, poked around the schema a bit, and found the setting I needed. The schema isn't documented, of course, and will probably change in future versions. It should also simplify the task of writing a QB-to-free software converter.

Dolibarr

jneves — Sun, 13 May 2007 11:23:32 +0000

http://www.dolibarr.org/

I've been using in my company for two years now.

Another option

jejb — Sat, 12 May 2007 23:51:08 +0000

I'd have to stick my hands up and confess to running a business using QuickBooks with wine. It seems to function just fine for me ... although I use the version of wine I compiled myself rather than the one you can download with Fedora Core 6 (which is what the underlying server runs).

My basic problem is that the firm of accountants who audit the books also run Quickbooks, so unless I can *export* to the proprietary format, my accouting bill goes way up.

So, I'll watch your experiment with interest ... I suspect there are a large number of other businesses out there in this position.

The small business QckBcks lock-in

ken_i_m — Fri, 11 May 2007 14:39:56 +0000

As a consultant specializing in FOSS I often talk to small business owners and Q*!(&B@@&$ is the number one reason they will not even consider switching. It is what drives their whole computer acquisition. When those "forced upgrades" come along the bookkeeper(s) gets a new computer and the old one gets handed down to the next in line. That person's computer then gets passed on and so on, like "hand me down clothes". In the meantime, they are plagued with all the trojans, viruses, and other malware that goes hand in hand with the dependent operating system platform.

I do occasional work for a consultanting group that is moving into the SAP Business One space. Their primary targets are businesses that are out-growing Q*!(&B@@&$ and need to scale upward. If the FOSS community can come up with a good replacement for that evil app then they will more likely continue to look to FOSS for their future needs.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

raphael — Fri, 11 May 2007 13:08:51 +0000

Another one which has been left out is Blue Erp - http://open.mitija.com/blueerp/
BlueErp distinguishes itself by being web based and php5 (OO) based when most of other projects are java based. While still young, the project is actively developped and is already used by several organisations on a day to day basis

Another option

wookey — Fri, 11 May 2007 07:33:42 +0000

Aleph One (where I was at until very recently) use Sage under DosEMU (It ran for the previous decade on one of our PC-cards in a RISCOS machine). We did have to argue with Sage quite hard to let us keep using the DOS version, when they tried to use the millenium bug to get everyone to move to Windows.

Sage is pretty good even for quite fancy accounting (multiple companies, built in stock control etc), and bookeepers like it. The DOS GUI/function key interface is quite efficient. But no doubt that version is unobtainium these days. And of course it's not free software. That and the OED (win95 version under wine) are the only proprietary apps we use.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

dvainsencher — Fri, 11 May 2007 06:50:15 +0000

Martin Fowler's "Analysis Patterns" includes a chapter about Accounts, which I found very illuminating. It gives the 10,000 meter altitude view, so don't expect something very specific to your application.

web-based accounting

tjc — Thu, 10 May 2007 17:00:33 +0000

My prediction, having scanned this scene a while back, is that LedgerSMB will come out on top in this list [snip]

My dart landed in the same circle.

I will be following this series with great interest, as I find myself in a very similar situation. The real fun begins when one tries to export data from QB in a way that doesn't require some error-prone manual procedure.

Accounting systems

DG — Thu, 10 May 2007 16:04:54 +0000

I think Jalia development halted a few years back. AFAIK it's a dead project.

web-based accounting

rfunk — Thu, 10 May 2007 15:59:33 +0000

"why not do a web-based system that, unlike Compiere or OFBiz, is focused solely on
accounting."

I believe that's what SQL-Ledger and its offshoots are.

My prediction, having scanned this scene a while back, is that LedgerSMB will come out
on top in this list, but still not be quite good enough. I hope I'm wrong on that last part.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

vmole — Thu, 10 May 2007 14:26:54 +0000

...and it occasionally forces an expensive upgrade to a new version for no clear reason.

I think that phrase pretty much includes the "clear reason" for the forced upgrade.

Managing without data import

Klavs — Thu, 10 May 2007 12:22:10 +0000

I too use SQL-Ledger - and am thinking of switching (though at years end) to LedgerSMB.
I did start OpenLedger (an attempt to fork a cleaner SQL-Ledger version) - but then LedgerSMB came along - and as soon a they finish their new structure, I'll switch and begin adding the features I've written for SQL-Ledger (mostly script-based invoicing support - ie. perl modules that can create an invoice and other things) - to LedgerSMB :)

yes, QckBks works under wine

Webexcess — Thu, 10 May 2007 12:12:07 +0000

We're using that horrid little application with Crossover Office and it works for us... for some definition of "works".

I am also using Quasar for other parts of the business, but I haven't had time to look at migrating everything from that other app.

The last time I looked, though, Q*ckB*cks refused to export all its data (presumably as a lock-in measure). I have had some really unpleasant dealings with that company, including getting scammed out of hundreds of dollars to get a bug fixed.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

malor — Thu, 10 May 2007 09:47:27 +0000

Aha! I think your reading is correct.

Managing without data import

Stephen_Beynon — Thu, 10 May 2007 09:45:05 +0000

It is some 3 years I decided that it was time to make the switch, as the
accounts package was the only non linux based software that I used.

Regretably I could not find any package that could import the data from
sage. The budget version of sage that I ran did not seem to have any easy
way to export the data either. The sage website seemed to indicate that I
could upgrade to a considerably more expensive version of the software and
export the data from that in csv format.

Eventually I decided that I would wait for my company year end, and start
the new company year using the new accounting software without importing
the data. For the first year after the migration I had to regularly boot
windows to refer back to old data. I still have the hard disk containing
windows, and sage in the cupboard, but it has been well over a year since
I have had to boot it.

I picked SQL-Ledger at the time, though the recent issues with SQL-Ledger
have caused me to take the Ledger-SMB fork.

I find that having given my accountant a restricted (read only) login to
the accounts web pages has considerably reduced my workload as I no-longer
get emails requesting information, and that I print out various reports
from sage, and post them to him.

Stephen

The Grumpy Editor's next project

heathd — Thu, 10 May 2007 09:21:41 +0000

Another stand alone desktop app is KMymoney, which I have used fine for my freelance accounting needs.

David

The Grumpy Editor's next project

bignose — Thu, 10 May 2007 08:45:18 +0000

Probably not. Parse it as "from [feature A] to [feature Z]".

The Grumpy Editor's next project

ajacobs — Thu, 10 May 2007 08:05:19 +0000

Here is one you missed: http://www.weberp.org

Accounting systems

addw — Thu, 10 May 2007 08:01:19 +0000

There is also Jalia http://jalia.sourceforge.net/.

One thing that can make these things awkward is that different countries have different regulatory needs which could make this article a can of worms.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

davidw — Thu, 10 May 2007 06:49:59 +0000

Cool! I've been looking into this for my own business as well, and the scene is not a good one.

One idea: the world is moving towards the web in any case, why not do a web-based system that, unlike Compiere or OFBiz, is focused solely on accounting. I bet a flashy looking, Rails, ajaxy application would:

1) Do ok in generating adsense if set up as the flagship website for the project, perhaps with some sort of pay for premium user level.

2) Inspire other people to collaborate.

You'd have to manage the community aspects well to make 1) above work - prominently let people know that they can download the premium version and use it for free on their own servers (or even set up their own sites), or pay to support the project.

Just an idea, but in any case, best of luck... this is something we need!

The Grumpy Editor's next project

malor — Thu, 10 May 2007 06:43:05 +0000

Typo in the article:

"...from double-entry bookkeeping to easy export of data to our accountant"

That probably should be "ease".

Wikibooks has answers...

mpgoodwin — Thu, 10 May 2007 06:06:41 +0000

Wikibooks seems to have a volume which goes into some detail about accounting - With definitions and math to boot.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Accounting

Martin

Developing for LWN use

pjm — Thu, 10 May 2007 05:04:19 +0000

what if you were to post the specs for the system you want, and then give up to five people lifetime subscriptions for delivering a product to your specs?

Even so, it's good to start with a look at existing software, which (I suppose) is useful to other people considering adopting or switching to such software. The resultant reviews will likely focus on the features most important to our Grumpy Editor, so each review can largely be seen as a sort of informal specification as a diff against existing functionality.

The Grumpy Editor's next project

riddochc — Thu, 10 May 2007 03:38:30 +0000

While it may seem redundant to make yet another personal finance application, that's exactly what I've been working on since about two weeks before paying this year's taxes.

I would like to solicit resources from anyone who knows: I'd like to get the accounting part right, and I'm sure Jon Corbet would too. I suspect the feature set he needs is very different from what I need, since the most complicated thing I have to worry about is a Schedule C and SE, but if anyone knows accounting, now would be a good time to chime in.

Books? Articles? Where does one learn a useful amount of accounting without getting another degree?

The Grumpy Editor's next project

paulmfoster — Thu, 10 May 2007 03:35:28 +0000

I used to work for a company which sold a (DOS/Windows) accounting package called SBT, written in FoxPro. One of the reasons we could remain in business was that no off the shelf accounting package seems to fit the needs of any given business. Hence, most of our money was made modifying SBT to fit customer businesses. I left that company ten years ago, and built my own accounting system under FoxPro for use in my company (we do newsletters and websites). Recently, I've rewritten the whole thing in PHP, using PostgreSQL as the database. FWIW, as a former C programmer, this conversion took me about six months (PHP is a *lot* like C).

In any case, good luck. I have a feeling this search is going to make you even grumpier.

Here's another thought though-- what if you were to post the specs for the system you want, and then give up to five people lifetime subscriptions for delivering a product to your specs? Just a thought.

Re:Say it ain't so, Joe!

sbergman27 — Thu, 10 May 2007 03:08:49 +0000

I was holding out hope that it might have been one of those great well-known, proprietary, small business bookkeeping tools that run on HP/UX and don't start with 'Q'. ;-)

Another option

corbet — Thu, 10 May 2007 02:59:04 +0000

I left turbocash out because it's not a native Linux application. If we start looking at stuff that can run under wine, the list grows significantly. We could even keep the application we are running now (I think). Somehow I'd rather get this task done without throwing wine into the mix.

Another option

berryji — Thu, 10 May 2007 02:56:33 +0000

http://sourceforge.net/projects/turbocash/
Apparently can run with Wine on Linux

Re:Say it ain't so, Joe!

amazingblair — Thu, 10 May 2007 02:50:39 +0000

Please tell me that it at least runs on a unix-like OS...

Probably not, sbergman27. In the article, our Grumpy Editor mentioned: "Plus there's that proprietary operating system that the bookkeeping application depends on." Sounds like the Windows monster to me. :-)

-Amazing Blair

Say it ain't so, Joe!

sbergman27 — Thu, 10 May 2007 01:50:12 +0000

"our business accounting is done using a well-known, proprietary, small business bookkeeping tool"

Please tell me that it at least runs on a unix-like OS and that its name doesn't start with a 'Q'!

LWN: Comments on "The Grumpy Editor's next project"

Another Option: Postbooks

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The small business Q*ckB*cks lock-in

Accounting systems

web-based accounting

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The Grumpy Editor's next project

QB on Mac

Dolibarr

Another option

The small business Q*ckB*cks lock-in

The Grumpy Editor's next project

Another option

The Grumpy Editor's next project

web-based accounting

Accounting systems

web-based accounting

The Grumpy Editor's next project

Managing without data import

yes, Q*ckB*ks works under wine

The Grumpy Editor's next project

Managing without data import

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The Grumpy Editor's next project

Accounting systems

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The Grumpy Editor's next project

Wikibooks has answers...

Developing for LWN use

The Grumpy Editor's next project

The Grumpy Editor's next project

Re:Say it ain't so, Joe!

Another option

Another option

Re:Say it ain't so, Joe!

Say it ain't so, Joe!

The small business QckBcks lock-in

The small business QckBcks lock-in

yes, QckBks works under wine