LWN: Comments on ""BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista"

An online petition against Vista

Porfalo — Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:17:28 +0000

I am not a developer or anything that technical. I am just a simple consumer with a serious issue with Microsoft concerning Vista. My computer is a few years old and will need replacing soon. After researching Vista, I am outraged that XP will not be used anymore. Vista is a nightmare. Every add-on like scanners, cameras, printers and such will no longer work with Vista. I refuse to go to this latest Bill Gates grab for money. Is there a petition? I will sign it in a heartbeat. In the meantime, I wonder what Mac has to offer.

Is this about free software?

NRArnot — Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:40:17 +0000

VHS and Beta weren't enough different for consumers to perceive any difference beyond that they were incompatible, and compatibility was the most desirable thing. It was eventually attained by VHS coming to dominate the market, and video rental stores eventually ceasing to offer Beta movies.

Had every VHS player cost 10-15% more than a similar Beta one because of a licensing fee, the story would almost certainly have played out differently. In any case it's not relevant to Linux vs M$ - the story there is that the market is already dominated by M$. Linux is the newcomer trying to break in with a better product at a totally unbeatable price (zero). Don't under-estimate how much the average Joe is willing to pay for the familiar (and Microsoft's biggest mistake with Vista may come to be seen as having changed the user interface yet again!)

It's a lot more like Ghandi's struggle for Indian independance: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Well, we've reached stage 3.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

Baylink — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:50:50 +0000

MSFT has gone from the $130's to $25ish with absolutely no help from us badmouthing Vista... and indeed, there's never been a day in MSFT's life when *someone* wasn't badmouthing them about *something*.

Not germane.

Is this about free software?

Erich_J_Ritzmann — Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:14:11 +0000

The prevalence of a product in the marketplace is more about the user experience than about
something as abstract as technical superiority. The latter, while interesting, is not all important.

Interestingly, Linux outshines Windows in many respects. In some ways OS X outshines Linux --
out of the box graphics are leagues better than what I've seen on Linux or Windows, for example.
Most OS X software you get with it is well-designed, with excellent attention to how users will
interact with it. It's an excellent environment when you just want to get things done and not
have to assemble the car before driving to the grocery store.

But, more to your point ... wasn't Beta a single company product protected with many patents
and royalty payments high? Whereas VHS was a standard which a plethora of companies bought
into because it was a more open standard? I simplify slightly to make a point. Linux seems more
like VHS in the early days in many ways. Beta had an early market lead but then was
overwhelmed by the VHS flood.

Windows has an early lead. However, as it becomes harder to copy, i.e. the company refers to
this as pirating, more people will look for alternatives. Most of the world's population does not
yet use a computer. That is about to change over the next ten years. The key to Linux' success
will in part be determined by early adoption in the developing world. Its price and the ability to
readily localize it for languages which Microsoft will ignore, will be key to its uptake. The other
important point to get -- we need to get the UI consistent and designed from the perspective of
the user -- currently there is too little of that in Linux.

Is this about free software?

proski — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:25:47 +0000

I'd go for VistaSux.org. And while at that, somebody make ZuneSux.org as well. Because iPod rulez!

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

AJWM — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:54:47 +0000

> the default page should show the thing that the page is mostly visited for.

Nonsense. That's what bookmarks are for. It's okay to have a few lines of "what's new" or headlines on the main page (that helps let the newcomer know whether the site is active or comatose), but the default page shouldn't presume anything about the visitor.

Review Requested: Linux Presentation in Jan

jimwelch — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:42:09 +0000

I am giving a talk on Jan 3 to my local Kiwanis Club. The topic is "Is Microsoft Obsolete?" I would like some reviews and suggestions to improve. I am trying to balance Freedoms, Features, and Finance as topics.

Keep in mind:

I only have 20-25 minutes to speak
Half the crowd will be over 65, the others are business leaders
I am well known and respected by the members (past president & Lt. Gov.)

The presentation is in ODP (OpenOffice) and PDF formats. Please don't clutter LWN with comments, send me email (jimwelchokATgmail.com) or blog at blogspot

Preaching to the choir

wookey — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:51:08 +0000

'right to keep and bare arms'

Indeed. Every man should stand up for the right to get sunburned if they feel like it.

[A pleasing lack of smileys in this thread - one has to exercise one's comedy detector 'manually'.]

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

Tjebbe — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:11:51 +0000

i disagree, i think the default page should show the thing that the page is mostly visited for.

If the site is mainly visited by developers, this should be development type stuff, like changelogs etc. If the site is mainly visited by people who have visited before, and want to know if there's anything new, this should be news. If the site is mainly visited by people trying to figure out what it's about, then you should open up with an about page.

Of course, the About page should be very reachable within one click on a very visible en clear link.

Preaching to the choir

timbulimbu — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:05:58 +0000

I must agree with mdekkers.

This site and badvista.org look like crap. It is so sad, that most Linux
and OSS sites are so unprofessional and ugly.

BTW, you can make this (lwn) site look better in just few seconds.
Replace this ugly, faded, toilet paper pink and uncomment
the "font-family:"
section in your css. ;)

First impression is important in today's superficial world.
It's all about packaging!

If we like to promote OSS and Linux for the rest of the world, we have to
wear Armani. ;)

PS! Sorry for my bad English.

Is this about free software?

jimmybgood — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 03:32:24 +0000

They should have picked, RestrictedVista.org or possibly ObstructedVista.org. After all, it's RS who refers to DRM as digital restrictions management, isn't it?

ObstructedVista makes more sense, but I like the sound of RestrictedVista better.

Preaching to the choir

drag — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:56:48 +0000

""I know -- almost as exciting as Constitutional Law or something. I see people get worked up about issues like that, and my idiot-filter kicks in -- it's immediately clear that they can't have anything interesting to say""

Ya constitutional law is pointless and boring and distracts from the real issues such as economics.

I mean 'freedom of speech', who needs it? After all most media folk are liberals and should be shut down.

'right to keep and bare arms', bah. It just makes it easier for poor people to kill convience store workers.

Your right. Rights and freedoms and trying to point out they are relevent and important in this is day and age is pointless and counter productive to the bottom line. Those dirty hippies just need to stfu so real mean can get their work done and promote open source software properly.

Preaching to the choir

drag — Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:52:48 +0000

If you want to look at what plone is capable of just look at it yourself.
http://plone.org/about/sites

The only bad thing about that site when compared to others of it's type is a unfortunate choice of colors.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

bronson — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:18:45 +0000

Very well said Khim. I wonder, did the FSF show this site to anybody before releasing it? Their standards are normally pretty high... How did they let this happen?

Preaching to the choir

petegn — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 15:51:11 +0000

> Ironically, one of the juniors on my time won't give linux the time of day, > but won't touch vista with a bargepole. every week or so he shows me >something like this site, and ask me if I really take these people seriously

Whilst i agree the BadVista site is bad and needs ripping out and starting again (if thats what plone is capable of i am glad i dont touch it)
You junior also need to take a step or three back an look seriousley at most of the Bad Mannered poorley laid out user Unfriendley ActiveX rubbish poewerd site around and they far out number the bad sites such as BadVista.org ..and incase he/she is reading this it is much easiser to take a site like that seriousley than an over active flash filled o/s specsefic (SP) crap caan site Like msn.com or some other windBloZe type site ..

PS sorry if you dont like what you read but tough Lifes a bitch then you dun go marry one fool.

Pete .

Is this about free software?

i3839 — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:23:25 +0000

This is nonsense, the early versions of Linux weren't released under the BSD, nor GPL. The license resembled GPL more than BSD, as sharing changes and being free were the main points.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

khim — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:45:37 +0000

It seems this was an overly optimistic assumption about this audience...

Not really. They just utterly, totally failed to think about what "press-release" word means! When I see press-release I immediately forget all I know about FSF and their "choir". Press-release is press-release. It's aimed to new users. To the press. Who don't know anything about TPM, DRM and other evil things.If it's not understandable by press - it's a failure. If it's not understandable after site visiting - it's double failure. If after visiting of the site you get the wrong impression - it's triple failure.

No wonder people are angry: I've not seen such bungles for a very long time...

Also, if you can find the FSF saying that a 2GB RAM requirement is an attack on freedom then I will buy you a pony.

It was in first link with any facts: 25 Shortcomings Of Vista. Among these "25 Shortcomings" are
Memory: Vista loves RAM, but more is better. Plan on 2 Gbytes to meet real-world needs.
Storage Space: With Vista taking as much as 10 Gbytes of hard drive space, big and fast hard drives will be a must.
WordPad: Ability to open .doc files has been removed.
And so on. TPM is not mentioned, DRM is also not in list. Count me "not impressed", Ok ?

Preaching to the choir

MathFox — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:10:29 +0000

I deploy and use hardware and software on the basis of architectural decisions, functionality, and technical and business merit, not on the basis of the license it ships with. [emphasis added] Any enterprise architect that does different is simply no good. If my functional and technical requirements can be served with open source software, then so much the better. If they can't, then tough. My job, at the end of the day, is to design and build systems that work, not to push an ideology.

A license can severely restrict you in the ways you can legally use a system. Making a bad licensing decision could result in a system that is unfit for your business. As a software engineer and consultant specialised in (Open Source) licensing issues I can tell you a few stories of how projects went wrong when people ignored the licensing aspects in their designs.

In an ideal project one is aware of licensing issues and business goals in all stages of the project. At the end of the day, it's your task to provide value to your employer. Designing a system that can not be sold because of licensing issues doesn't help anyone.

Is this about free software?

oak — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:55:57 +0000

What about "VisionLessVista"? All the "new&cool" stuff in Vista
is plagiated from Mac OSX.

Or "DReaMVista.nightmare" and logo of a consumer's heart (shaped
MP3 player) with DRM stake driven through it?

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

ccchips — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:38:33 +0000

BadVsta! Bad, bad BAD!

Seriously----I put my vote in against this thing. I plan to write them, because it will do nothing but annoy people. FSF should focus on really serious issues like software patents.

Preaching to the choir

nix — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:30:20 +0000

As far as I can tell, `professional' in modern manager-speak is code for
`don't rock the boat, remove everything that gives you any individuality
or personality, obey orders'. Basically `become an interchangeable
component so we can fire you more easily'.

(I periodically get told by various uberbosses that I'm `not
professional'. They get all confused when I say that no, I'm not, not by
their definition: I'm an amateur, and that's a *good* thing.)

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

zotz — Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:25:00 +0000

"Just promote the merits of free systems, that has worked well for twenty years."

The merit of a Free system is that it is Free (libre) right? What other merit do you think they should promote?

Even copyleft is losing its meaning in the market:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=copyleft&...

Look through there and see how many videos are claiming to be copyleft while saying either no commercial use or even no changes.

I am sure people would not repeat themselves so much if they weren't constantly being misrepresented.

Sorry for the ramble, but it is connected in an odd way.

all the best,

drew

Preaching to the choir

njs — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:10:01 +0000

> we are discussing something as exciting as "Software Licensing" - yawn

I know -- almost as exciting as Constitutional Law or something. I see people get worked up about issues like that, and my idiot-filter kicks in -- it's immediately clear that they can't have anything interesting to say.

>As always, when you have a very vocal radicalised minority, they only serve to polarise views and preclude any possibility of compromise. Extremeism, whatever shape it takes, is simply not a good thing.

Well said -- and the FSF is a particularly egregious example, they've been doing this since the dawn of free software. Just think where we could be by now, if we hadn't had this millstone always hanging around our neck.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

njs — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:53:10 +0000

Again, this site is not trying to preach to the masses. It is trying to help the choir coordinate. Given the audience, it makes perfect sense that their first few posts -- introducing what they plan to do -- simply assume that their readers already have some idea what parts of Vista are particularly inimical to the FSF's philosophy, and that they can just point at them and be understood (e.g., the paragraph about "Treacherous Computing" in the press release). It seems this was an overly optimistic assumption about this audience... if you are still waiting for more evidence to decide that things like DRM and TC are not quite as wonderful as their marketing campaigns claim, then perhaps the site is not for you.

Also, if you can find the FSF saying that a 2GB RAM requirement is an attack on freedom then I will buy you a pony.

An online petition against Vista

dark — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:34:47 +0000

Hmm, I don't understand your pledge. What are the 100,000 computer buyers supposed to do and what happens when they do it?

Preaching to the choir

Zack — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:24:22 +0000

>When the FSF raises it's shrill voice, and proclaims everybody but their own followers as wrong and evil,

They don't. They say proprietary software is divisive and harmful to society. If you want to argue that, fine, but please don't set up a strawman.

>they harm not only their own cause, but also through extension the whole of the open source environment.

No, you think their course harms your personal interests, which may or may not be so.

I'm sorry, but from my experience the "Extremism" is usually not to be found in this "vocal radicalised minority".

In case you have failed to notice it, a lot of the "long haired, bearded hippies" are raising an eyebrow at this action. And frankly, for someone riling against "Extremeism" you are dealing out a fair amount of inflammatory language and insulting rhetoric.

As for the rest of your rant about "profesionalism". I'm not sure whether a "sharp professional consultant" like yourself will ever graps this, but your business-case is simply not the FSF's ethical imperative.

Yes, that was ad hominem and irrelevant. Not very nice now, is it ?

Preaching to the choir

mdekkers — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:25:42 +0000

"Given how familiar you are with free software, I'm surprised you were so unaware of the mission of the FSF that you would post something like this. It is not necessarily bad that your goals are not the same as the FSF's, but you should not expect that it will work towards your goals when they are in opposition to its."

I am pretty familliar with where the FSF stands, and how they feel about anything that doesn't adhere to their own strict view of the world. The issue here is that 99% of the consumers and business decision makers out there don't know this, and for them, it's all open source. First of all we are discussing something as exciting as "Software Licensing" - yawn - secondly, the difference between Free Software and Open Source Software is about as clear and important to people as the different streams of belief in the Greek Orthodox Church.

When the FSF raises it's shrill voice, and proclaims everybody but their own followers as wrong and evil, they harm not only their own cause, but also through extension the whole of the open source environment. As always, when you have a very vocal radicalised minority, they only serve to polarise views and preclude any possibility of compromise. Extremeism, whatever shape it takes, is simply not a good thing.

I remember working on arranging a screening of RevolutionOS when I was working (as an open source consultant) for a large blue chip consulting firm - an awereness building session for all the consultants that had little or no exposure to open source. I watched the movie with my manager and my team - we all saw it for the first time - and about half-way through we all decided it would do more harm then good. The majority of the film is good stuff, and narrates the rise and rise of open source in a really clear and positive way. Everytime the FSF gets involved in the film though, their radicalised, polarised views simply tear down the rest. Too many cringing moments involving RMS. Not too long after, I started thinking if there really was a solid future pushing what amounts to an ideology into business IT.

I deploy and use hardware and software on the basis of architectural decisions, functionality, and technical and business merit, not on the basis of the license it ships with. Any enterprise architect that does different is simply no good. If my functional and technical requirements can be served with open source software, then so much the better. If they can't, then tough. My job, at the end of the day, is to design and build systems that work, not to push an ideology.

If the badvista website would have been a balanced and open discission on the strenghts and weaknesses of the Vista OS, great. It could have even made a bit of a difference. But it isn't and in my opinion in its current form it does more harm then good.

An online petition against Vista

ottavio — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:17:51 +0000

Sometime ago I launched an online petition against PC manufacturers that recommend Vista:
http://www.pledgebank.com/boycottvista

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

vondo — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:06:49 +0000

I hate it when the homepage for a project is a blog or a collection of news releases. That's just stupid. The homepage should be for someone who knows next to nothing about your project, not for your developers. I don't care which bugs version 3.1.4.5 of your release fix, I want to know what your project DOES first.

The last one I was looking at was GNU Radio. Never did really understand what that was, but it took me 10 minutes of hunting around to figure out that I didn't think I was interested in it.

Technical merits

man_ls — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:13:04 +0000

I agree, but sticking just with technical merits is dangerous. There are lots of areas where proprietary software is better than free software; sometimes (as with playing DVDs or MP3s), free software cannot get there without transforming itself into proprietary software -- or changing the legal landscape.

In other aspects, like security, centering on the relative merits of free software can make us engage in a nonsensical battle about who is worse (more insecure). Think IE and Firefox. I fear this may happen with Vista.

Then there are some places where proprietary software cannot go: free software can be distributed freely, you can adapt it to your needs, you can run it as you like, or change suppliers; you know exactly what it does, and formats are open by default. These are the real winners for free software: centering on these merits you cannot lose.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

danieldk — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:29:45 +0000

I agree, there is nothing wrong with helping others with some good advise. But starting an anti-Vista site is something different IMO. It only reinforces the idea that free software supporters are unreasonable zealots. Most of us are not :^).

More general campaigns (like DefectiveByDesign.org) that emphasize the disadvantages of restrictive technology feel a lot more sympathetic.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

tclark — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:41:43 +0000

My views on this are mixed. I would prefer to talk about the merits of Linux and free software, and this must remain the primary message. But I do sometimes talk with Windows users who are considering Vista, and it would be helpful to have some information about why they should avoid it.

Preaching to the choir

linuxrocks123 — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:38:20 +0000

> I would like to see the FSF take a step back, and devise campaigns that
promote free software in a positive way, with a strong focus on how it
helps business and consumers, how and where it is better, where it isn't,
and ultimately, what it can do for your bottom line.

The FSF will promote the use of free software and oppose the use of
proprietary software even where the competing proprietary software is
technically superior. The FSF's public position is and always has been
that proprietary software is unethical and that you should therefore not
use it. All of its public statements will reflect this view, and its
campaigns to promote free software will be focused around getting others
to agree with its view; they will not promote the technical advantages of
specific free software packages divorced from the ethical advantages.
Someone ignorant of the ethical advantages of free software would switch
back to a proprietary package whenever the proprietary one happened to
temporarily be technically better, so such a promotion would be
detrimental to the FSF's goals. Due to the promotions of others, this in
fact happened with the Qt toolkit before it became free software, and
continues to happen with Java while its conversion to free software is
incomplete.

Given how familiar you are with free software, I'm surprised you were so
unaware of the mission of the FSF that you would post something like this.
It is not necessarily bad that your goals are not the same as the FSF's,
but you should not expect that it will work towards your goals when they
are in opposition to its.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

khim — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:30:29 +0000

Vista takes away your freedoms in exchange for a string of transparent windows

This is great text to have on the bumper sticker, but it's not the good basis for such a site. It goes on and on talking about "evilness" of vista without showing any evidence. Do you know anyone else who eploys such tactic ? SCO, right ? If you don't like it when SCO does this the why you are accepting it when FSF does it ?

If you want to explain how "evil" Vista is in regard to freedom is - at least put some facts on site! And no, 2GB RAM requirement is not attack on my freedom...

Is this about free software?

khim — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:20:18 +0000

Actually it does. Not only BSD camp was hurt by fragmentation itself (a lot of code was in proprietary branches and is lost forever) but the fear of fragmentation was also a big problem.

Actually GPL is great because
1. Anyone have the right to fork the projects and
2. Anyone have the right to merge projects

Both are critical: 1 means that there are will be no lock-in and 2 means there are will be no useless duplicates thus no useless waste of resources.

Novell's agreement is direct attack on 2 - that's why community is so hostile...

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

danieldk — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:34:42 +0000

Ugh, this makes me less proud a FSF member. Free software can stand on its own merits, we don't need a smear campaign to increase its visibility. I have been using Fedora Core 6 and RHEL 5 Beta 2 the last few weeks, and it can easily compete with OS X or Windows in many areas, and surpasses both systems in other. Just promote the merits of free systems, that has worked well for twenty years.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

njs — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:27:14 +0000

Wow, from all the negative comments here I expected something far worse. But, uh... where the heck do they say "Vista sucks, M$ is evil, join us in spitting on them!"? The press release and the parts of the site I skimmed all seemed to be on message: Vista takes away your freedoms in exchange for a string of transparent windows, and freedom is one of (maybe the) basic criteria by which we should compare systems. Sure, they're trying to hack the media attention around Vista to publicize this message, but -- it's not like this is a _new_ message for the FSF. It's, like, in their name.

Also, it doesn't look like this site is intended to be a slick site that markets that message to the public. (I agree that having such a site would be a good thing.) If you check, defectivebydesign.org isn't either (though it has some links to such sites in a sidebar). They're both intended for activists themselves to use, for organizing and share information. Both kinds of site have their place.

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

achitnis — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:14:00 +0000

This is a terrible move, and is likely to turn into a PR disaster for the FSF, and free software in general.

Until now, the free software world has been seen as being supportive of its own products, providing platforms and visibility, and we have been appreciated for it.

But now it is going competitive - product against product - under the very thin and non-credible guise of public awareness. This won't fly, and I think it is going to make life extremely difficult for everyone, while actually placing MS and Vista in a perceived (and comfortable) underdog situation.

Bah!

"BadVista.org": FSF launches campaign against Microsoft Vista

allesfresser — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:12:50 +0000

The calendar widget is a default part of Plone, which is running the BadVista site. They probably left it in there because they thought it would come in handy (as someone else said above) to find older posts by date.

There's plenty to gain

JoeBuck — Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:50:20 +0000

The transition to Vista will be very expensive for business, and it's going to be disruptive. If it can be slowed down, that gives more room and time for people to consider a mixture of sticking with XP and switching to alternative operating systems.