LWN: Comments on "Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code"

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

nix — Thu, 25 May 2006 18:58:07 +0000

Tricky. KHTML itself uses KIO, KParts, and many other core KDE libraries. (Gecko doesn't use GNOME because it isn't part of GNOME; as a consequence it reinvents the wheel to an appalling degree, and often makes them square, e.g. the horror which is XPCOM.)

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

nix — Thu, 25 May 2006 18:55:45 +0000

Because Konqueror doesn't run on OS X: another browser using KHTML (*just one* of the components used by Konqueror) does.

Try navigating to e.g. ssh://localhost/, or opening a terminal, or using some KPart or other. Oops, you can't, because it's not using the KDE services that give access to such things. (Actually, some of these things may be possible, but if so, they're using native MacOS X stuff, instead.)

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

Los__D — Thu, 25 May 2006 15:17:53 +0000

That would be "...can't honestly say that I..." :)

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

tzafrir — Thu, 25 May 2006 13:28:02 +0000

Examples from the Gecko side:

http://swik.net/web-browser+gecko

Strangely enough, Skipstone and Kazehakase haven't progressed very well.
So is K-Meleon on Windows. Camino on Mac is probably the only exception.

It sseems that you just can't unbloat Gecko...

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

Los__D — Thu, 25 May 2006 12:31:18 +0000

Still doesn't change that 27 packages are not part of konqueror, and 8 are not part of XFCE, now does it?

I agree very much that this is an apples to oranges comparison, but he were the one who decided to compare the dependency count of a single application to an entire desktop, and succeeded in proving the opposite of what he intended (At least for Ubuntu, can't honestly day that I know the real dependencies for Konqueror, I just noticed this very big flaw in his comparison).

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

thebluesgnr — Thu, 25 May 2006 12:23:00 +0000

Well, that's exactly the point. Firefox, for example, depends on GTK+ but not gnome-vfs, dbus, ORBit, bonobo, etc (better GNOME integration can be provided by a separate package though, firefox-gnome-support on Debian). Loading Konqueror on a non-KDE environment loads the entire KDE platform. Hard disk space is not a problem, but memory is.
It would at least increase the market share of KHTML-based browsers a little bit.

It would be nice to have a web browser based on KHTML that didn't have all these requirements.

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

LintuxCx — Thu, 25 May 2006 10:07:34 +0000

Why doesn't it need them on OS X then?

And BTW, is this really the same WebKit as used by Apple's Safari? I can't imagine it is, unless they somehow managed to relicense KHTML to BSD instead of GPL?

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

aseigo — Thu, 25 May 2006 02:24:18 +0000

if you're going to count based on some random criteria, apply it to both.
the mesa libs are not kde libs but, well, mesa libs for instance. as are
many more in that list. there are actually 9 kde packages in that list.

not that package count is really an accurate metric. one might wish to
compare disk size or memory usage or rate it to functionality, etc... but
whatever.

and it is a bit odd that kubuntu brings in kdesktop and kicker as well
since those aren't really dependencies for konqueror. *shrug*

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

Los__D — Wed, 24 May 2006 22:32:04 +0000

Yeah, 26 dependencies of an application, compared to 8 dependencies of an entire desktop (if you only count dependencies that are not a part of it, as you should), now that's almost the same... *cough*

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

busterb — Wed, 24 May 2006 19:47:55 +0000

Here is what Ubuntu 6.06 does when you try to install konqueror on a
minimal install:

$ sudo apt-get install konqueror
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
iceauth kcontrol kdebase-bin kdebase-data kdebase-kio-plugins
kdelibs-bin kdelibs-data kdelibs4c2a kdesktop kfind kicker
libarts1c2a libaudio2 libavahi-qt3-1 libcupsys2 libdbus-qt-1-1c2
libgl1-mesa libglu1-mesa libkonq4 libqt3-mt libxcomposite1
libxkbfile1 libxss1 libxtst6 libxxf86misc1 libxxf86vm1

And xfce4:
$ sudo apt-get install xfce4
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
dbus gtk2-engines-xfce hal libexo-0.3-0 libstartup-notification0
libthunar-vfs-1 libxcomposite1 libxdamage1 libxfce4mcs-client3
libxfce4mcs-manager3 libxfce4util4 libxfcegui4-4 libxxf86vm1
xfce4-icon-theme xfce4-mcs-manager xfce4-mcs-plugins xfce4-panel
xfce4-session xfce4-utils xfdesktop4 xfwm4 xfwm4-themes

Sure, it needs some support libraries and programs, but you by no means
need all of even kdebase/kdelibs installed for it to work. Saying you
have to install KDE to use Konqueror is like complaining that you have to
install Gnome to use XFCE just because they happen to share some support
libraries and programs.

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

proski — Wed, 24 May 2006 19:24:20 +0000

I think you still have KDE installed

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

mrshiny — Wed, 24 May 2006 18:36:31 +0000

Heck, I run cygwin on my Windows box (at work), and ssh to my home machine and start konqueror from the command line, to test our website. No KDE, no session, no taskbar, only the barest of window managers. Works just fine.

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

niner — Wed, 24 May 2006 18:09:23 +0000

You know, ACID2 is not everything. ACID2 got famous because it's a nice picture and tests some pretty obscure things, so all browsers failed.

In normal webdeveloper practice KHTML is a very nice engine. But it still lacks compared to Gecko. For example, it's not possible to add new stylesheet rules with JavaScript. And a bug I discovered a few weeks ago and was fixed a week later in the svn version:
KHTML could not assign a percentage height to an element, when it's parent had no explicit height set, but got it implicit via position: absolute; top: 1em; bottom: 1em;
Sounds obscure, but is something that happens far more often in practice, than most of the ACID2 tests that modern browsers fail.

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

nix — Wed, 24 May 2006 17:11:47 +0000

Oh, and Konqueror certainly doesn't care what window manager you're running. I use fvwm2, and at one point I used fvwm2 and *no* KDE session manager or kicker (KDE panel); Konqueror worked anyway.

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

nix — Wed, 24 May 2006 17:10:40 +0000

What's the point? Konqueror uses almost all the core KDE services because it *needs* them. If you wanted a standalone konqueror, you'd have to provide your own implementations of at least KHTML, KIO, DCOP/D-BUS, KParts... in effect you'd have to reimplement kdelibs and a fairly large part of kdebase. It's easier just to, well, install kdelibs and kdebase (the only two mandatory KDE packages anyway). It's not as if they use more than a tiny amount of a modern machine's disk space.

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

landley — Wed, 24 May 2006 17:07:11 +0000

Now if I could just get a version of Konqueror I could run without KDE
installed (something that works under xfce2, for example). It's been
ported to many places, but non-KDE Linux doesn't seem to be one fo them...

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

aseigo — Wed, 24 May 2006 16:27:27 +0000

watching the growth of the "khtml family" to include not just KDE but also
Apple and Nokia (and supposedly there are others, as well) is very
exciting for standards based computing. these are the things that help
ensure true standards compliancy; if we have a couple of open source,
standards-compliant browsers that together eventually take the majority of
the browsing market (not just desktop, but all browsing) that will be
huge. and i think it is happening.

for projects such as OLPC this is a great boon, too, as they can choose
between two options (webkit and mozilla) for what fits their technical and
other needs best. having a choice between multiple quality open solutions
is quite liberating as it lowers the odds that you will have to compromise
somewhere to gain the freedom aspect. this in turn increases the odds that
those who won't or can't compromise can take advantage of free software.
(yes, i don't particularly believe in "one size fits all" software)

Nokia releases 'Web Browser for S60' code

cventers — Wed, 24 May 2006 15:12:51 +0000

It's great to see more devices using the KHTML/WebCore family... since
they're the only renderers that seem to pass ACID2, it is good news
indeed.