LWN: Comments on "OSI procedures - a study in quotes"

Bruce vs ESR

rickmoen — Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:48:52 +0000

(Disclosure: I am on good terms with both of the people in question -- and hope to remain that way.)

First and foremost, the private e-mail about which Bruce (and you, rfunk) have, rather questionably, proclaimed that its author intended as a "threat" (impliedly, of violence) should not have been a matter for public mailing lists and Web sites, at all. Bruce, if you honestly believed it to be such, reporting it to your police department was appropriate — but posting it to debian-devel and elsewhere most certainly was not. One can reasonably posit a passive-aggressive attempt at character assassination in your reaction.

So: Bruce (and apologies to you and Eric both, for this being less than timely), simmer down, and, if you must fight, fight fair: You know that's no way to behave. As it is, the main lesson you've given people is "Don't trust Bruce with unguarded comments in private e-mail." Is that what you really want to be known for? Please understand that I say this with nothing but friendly intent.

Eric: Although any reasonable and minimally charitable reader would understand that the natural way an author and essayist will tend to "make you regret" things is with the pen rather than the sword (or boomstick or aikido punch), and that you do not have any history of beating people up just because you're frustrated and annoyed with them, a moment's contemplation will remind you that your "tribe" is unfortunately riddled with scurrilous gossips and trolls possessed of little or no moral scruple, not to mention those inclined to post first and switch on their brains later.

Nathan (ncm): I assume you've switched your brain back on, by now. ;-)

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

landley — Mon, 05 Sep 2005 00:32:18 +0000

I've heard of exactly two of those people (Eric and Russ), and I already
know what both of them have to say because I've read their previous
writings on this issue. Plus on some things I already know I disagree
with them: Eric's anti-GPL stance, and Russ's belief that a closed process
to choose open licenses somehow avoids being a contradiction in terms.

The rest of the committee is people I've never even heard of. And I've
heard of plenty of lawyers. (Neither Lawrence Lessig nor Eben Moglen are
on the 'over-lawyered' list. As for legal perspectives I'd trust from
non-lawyers, why isn't Pamela Jones of Groklaw on there?)

Why on earth should I (or anyone) care about what comes out of this
committee? (Since when does open source work by committee, anyway?)

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

zakaelri — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:02:33 +0000

Of course, one of the problems with existence is that everything eventually comes down to faith... Whether it is faith in God, Self, Science, or whatever. Faith is how people operate.

I agree with Perens on this matter... The fact that he created the OSI guidelines implies that he would know best what their intent was. While nothing should be judged soley on intent, the motivations and ideas behind the creation of something -- the mindset or spirit of the author, if you will -- does provide healthy insight. It is for this reason that I, when creating various charters (for school activities), have always included an addendum that expresses the rhyme behind the reason.

I hope that by showing people what was already attempted, they can use that as a foundation for what they have done. Of course, since Perens is still available, it would make sense for him to join in the conversation.

Of course, it seems that Bruce's opinion matters just about as much as mine ;)

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

Wol — Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:49:31 +0000

Stuff democracy! No I don't mean that badly, but Winston Churchill was right when he said that democracy was an awful method of government, just less awful than the other methods available.

Open Source is a meritocracy. Who elected Linus? Who elected RMS? Please name me ANY well-known Open/Free Software person who was elected!

I just subscribe to the view that "those who want the job are those who are least qualified to do it", so the mere fact that someone is complaining "why have I been left off" is perfect justification for the fact they were left off.

Cheers,
Wol

How many Libertarians does it take to change a light bulb?

proski — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:00:48 +0000

Please choose correct answer:
1. None, the market will take care of it.
2 Two. One to say that the market will take care of it. The other to chase the electricians away with a gun.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

giraffedata — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 06:22:02 +0000

I think you're right -- I read more into the statement than is there. I assumed he was talking about an ordering in time -- i.e. Bruce applied after the N positions were already filled. But it doesn't say that explicitly.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

Ross — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 03:19:24 +0000

If it was not sarcastic then it was very stupid. Here's an illustration:

Five people are present, four of them are chosen.
The one which was not asks why.
The answer given is that only four were chosen.

The non-chosen person is told nothing they don't already know (four of the five were chosen). What they asked about (the basis for choosing one over another) is not explained in the slightest by the answer.

Bruce vs ESR

rfunk — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 01:23:53 +0000

Thanks. From there I was able to Google for it.

Here's Bruce's initial public message on the topic, though the context seems to be OSI's controversial endorsement of Apple's code license.

Not to bring back a six-year-old controversy, but I notice that the threat was (a) over email, and (b) did not explicitly mention shooting Bruce. On the other hand, I still think it was over the top and I don't think Bruce was unreasonable in his reaction.

OSI's relevance to the community has only dimmed since then.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

giraffedata — Fri, 26 Aug 2005 00:06:34 +0000

>making sarcastic comments about N+M>0

I didn't read anything sarcastic in the N+M. I think he's only trying to make the point of how uncomplicated the process of rejecting Bruce Perens was. There was probably some discussion we didn't see wherein someone suggested there was more to it.

Sarcasm is saying the opposite of what you believe and exaggerating it to show how it's ridiculous. But I'm sure Russ really believes it was an N+M decision just as he said.

Rationality

ncm — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 22:04:14 +0000

Rejecting Bruce doesn't demonstrate irrationality, it's just consistent with the already observed pattern. The point is that as long as there's no public competing voice, their claims to legitimately control the definition of "Open Source" appear to stand. Once there are two contradictory voices it becomes much easier for a casual observer to dismiss the stranger one (or both) as irrelevant.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

ronaldcole — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:55:35 +0000

Russ needs to re-read Bastiat, me-thinks. Socialism treats everyone equally, but Bastiat was arguing against Socialism. Bastiat writes that the purpose of law is to prevent injustice from reigning (see the section "Law Is a Negative Concept") and not, as Russ incorrectly paraphrased, to treat everyone equally.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

ncm — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 21:36:59 +0000

PB is Bruce Perens. There was a story that ESR threatened to shoot him. When ESR says he'll shoot you, he's not joking, even if he's smiling. So Bruce reported the threat to the police. ESR got all flustered and offended about it; probably he thought threatening to shoot BP expressing respect. Anyway that's how the story goes.

I don't know if or how often ESR still threatens people with his gun, but if he threatens you, do report it.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

brouhaha — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:42:39 +0000

I was optomistic when Russ took over but not so much anymore.

Russ Nelson was only briefly the president of OSI. He's still on the board, but Michael Tiemann is the President.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

rfunk — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 18:12:05 +0000

I'm missing who PB is, and what's this about calling the cops on ESR?
What did I miss?

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

twiens — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 17:12:37 +0000

The entire situation is odd. I must admit I feel some disappiontment with Bruce Perens for pushing on this one. My suggestion to Bruce would be to let Russ, Eric and friends have their fun and post their guidelines and provide constructive criticism of the outcome. OSI puts its self forward as the voice of open source developers. I'm working on a few projects that will be released under the GPL or LGPL, but they don't speak for me. I have no voice or input. I think it is self evident that the non-democratic structure of the OSI invalidates their claim to be representative of the users and developers of OSS. I can see that from one point of view a committee looking at license proliferation is important and that getting the most experienced and qualified people on that committee is helpful. However, considering the organization that is doing it and the problems with that organization, the relative importance of the work is greatly reduced. Why you may ask? Because people will say, "Oh yes, that is the self important OSI spouting off again, who cares", and then they will do whatever that wanted to do in the first place. Don't sweat it Bruce, I and may others appreciate your willingness to work for the benefit of other FOSS developers and users, but this issue isn't all that important.

Best. LWN. Article. EVER.

louie — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:23:42 +0000

Hilarious, even if it is slightly depressing to watch high-profile grown men argue like six year olds. Thanks for the excellent presentation, Jon.

What does this have to do with free software?

marduk — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:41:31 +0000

I fail to see the relevency. Free software existed long before these people decided to get together and argue like 6-year olds, and it is my opinion that free software will continue to strive for a long time despite them.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

sean.hunter — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:59:55 +0000

There's nothing irrational per se about the comittee excluding Bruce Perens in spite of his own very high estimation of the value he would bring to the process. There's also nothing magical about the OSI. If people don't like the results they should just ignore them. For what little difference it makes, I will be ignoring the OSI whether or not I like the results, just like I ignore all other self-appointed organisations that puport to speak on my behalf.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

nix — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:06:28 +0000

Religious? Frederic Bastiat was an *economist*. (A particularly readable one with non-loony ideas.)

(And `faith-based reasoning' appears to be code for `circular reasoning'.)

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

ncm — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 06:02:12 +0000

Over the years the OSI has gradually driven away its more reasonable membership, and now selects only the compatibly irrational.

Probably the best thing Bruce could do now is to start a competing group, welcoming all reasonable persons as members -- and also the OSI membership. The latter will be roundly outnumbered. His competing group may begin by defining as "Open Source" any product for which the source code is available on RAND terms, and concentrate on compatibility with Free Software instead.

The "Open Source" brand has proved a distraction at best, and a proliferator of non-Free licenses at worst. Let the brand join its promoters in well deserved obscurity.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

flewellyn — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:35:52 +0000

It's business like this that makes me glad I can, most days, say "OSI who?"

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

error27 — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 03:13:49 +0000

Wow. I was optomistic when Russ took over but not so much anymore.

Bruce posts a reasonable question. The obvious response is to post something diplomatic. Another response would be to be brutally honest about how ESR is still pissed from when PB called the cops on him. But instead of being diplomatic or honest, Russ's approach is to start posting wanker religious crap and making sarcastic comments about N+M>0.

He seems like a complete bastard actually... That counts for a lot to me even if it doesn't at bastiat.org.

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

danielthaler — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 02:28:48 +0000

Well, I see I agree with at least one person there: the OSI truly doesn't matter.

Case closed :)

OSI procedures - a study in quotes

jstAusr — Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:38:01 +0000

I'm more impressed with Bruce Parens for not being a member of that committee and less impressed that he would want to be. A committee that includes a member that thinks the GPL is irrelevant has problems from the start.