LWN: Comments on "Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)"

Microsoft compared to SCO

rise — Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:53:39 +0000

You're welcome, and I forgot to credit the source—finance.yahoo.com. It's actually a decent site for a quick look at the financials of a company:

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=IBM
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=MSFT

Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)

NightMonkey — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:31:04 +0000

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/biztech/11/19/tech.microsoft...

Sad that CNN is reporiting this breathlessly-delivered Microsoft press release as news. Not even a hint of balance. :(

Microsoft compared to SCO

Max.Hyre — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:34:09 +0000

Thanks much for the clarification!

What is Microsoft left with?

zotz — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:11:25 +0000

"The recording and movie industries are being VERY successful at crushing any alternative distribution channels and having those who disagree with them crushed in court (not excepting 12 year old children)."

Perhaps, but they have also been VERY successful in getting me to cut way back on my business dealings with them and to become more active in creating Free (GPL software Creative Commons writings, etc.) works as an alternative.

It would not surprise me to find they have had the same effect on others.

http://www.nanowrimo.org/userinfo.php?uid=47354

I have committed to others to release the nanowrimo first draft of this book under a creative commons licence if I reach the goal.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22drew...

http://zotz.openphoto.net/

http://www.nanowrimo.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topi...

http://zbcw.sourceforge.net/

zotz

Limiting comment posting rights

zotz — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:03:18 +0000

E-commerce is not so easy from some countries. Look at payment options.

Paypal is out for my country - hey paypal, what's the problem?

Don't like using my credit cards online (or offline) all that much.

Getting a cheque drawn un a US bank is an expensive proposition both in terms of time and money.

Where does that leave us?

I have an egold account but need to find something to induce people to put something in it for me. Not sure how to fund it from here. (Legally.) Admittedly not a high priority right now.

zotz

Limiting comment posting rights

zotz — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:56:07 +0000

I am not a subscriber, but of all the ideas I have seen floated on this topic, this one seems the best to implement. If any are to be implemented that is.

zotz

Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)

nix — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:54:06 +0000

I don't know; the OP was obviously trying to say *something*, and it's quite amusing trying to decrypt it. (This sort of thing is potentially caused by language barriers, too, like mmarq's posts, which would be quite reasonable if they were less disjointed and had a capitalectomy and adrenalin removal.)

I don't think this case is like petegn's merit-free obscenity-laden post above.

What is Microsoft left with?

nix — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:49:39 +0000

I hear that this little island off the coast of Europe (whose name I forget) and this big country (then run by a nasty person) where they use a weird alphabet were involved as well.

Limiting comment posting rights

nix — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:45:10 +0000

Also, that would give me another incentive to overcome laziness and subscribe.

I mean, gosh, I slaved over subscribing for whole minutes.

(Compared to the amount of time Jon likely spent writing the code for the subscription stuff, I'd say subscribing takes effectively zero time.)

Limiting comment posting rights

Wol — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 08:17:40 +0000

One major problem with that :-(

The letters feature is treated as editorial, and as such is effectively TWO weeks out-of-date for non-subscribers.

Okay, as a non-subscriber I have to accept that anything decent is only available to me a week out of date, but as the letters are discussing stuff that was a week old *then*, it's a pretty useless feature for non-subscribers.

Cheers,
Wol

What is Microsoft left with?

ekj — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:17:12 +0000

I guess that depends on what criteria you use for success.

??AA has been pretty successful in getting attention for their shotgun-tactic in the media, perhaps enough so that sharing of movies and music is fractionally lower than it would otherwise have been, afterall it's plausible that some have gotten scared.

But they have also:

Multiplied interest in developing and using anonymity-guaranteeing filesharing-networks by a large factor.
Alienated a large part of their customer-base. I strongly suspect that even those who download less music than they did aren't running to the shops.
Alienated a fair, and by all accounts growing, part of the artist-community. Thus their idea of a bussiness is to sit between music-lovers and musicians, both sides hate them and would *LOVE* to get rid of them. That's not an enviable position.
Music and movie-sharing online is still growing, migth be growing fractionally slower than it would without the lawsuits, but it is growing.

If this is success, then yeah, I guess.

Microsoft compared to SCO

rise — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 01:56:51 +0000

You were right to worry about naivete on that front, Microsoft's market cap is based on Wall Street's assessment of a very profitable monopoly. IBM earns a smaller profit, but they're much larger - 2.5x revenues, 5.6x employees (and jobs are political power these days), worldwide operations that dwarf MS's, the largest patent portfolio in the world by at least 50% (many of them fundamental patents that are a huge threat to MS), and a legal team that MS has good reason to be wary of. Other than the anti-trust imbroglio their legal team's record in the courts has been pretty spotty—in part because the company consistently gives them a week hand—but even there they lost, their primary victory was through the political sphere.

Microsoft's gross revenue last quarter: 9,189,000
Employees: 57,000
Net income: 2,528,000

IBM's gross revenue last quarter: 23,429,000
Employees: 319,273
Net income: 1,800,000

Limiting comment posting rights

man_ls — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 01:03:28 +0000

I hate to silence the non-subscribers; many of them have good things to say.

Well, I'm not yet a subscriber, but I would rather not read this sort of thing even if I lose the right to post. Even if we lose some interesting comments.

Also, that would give me another incentive to overcome laziness and subscribe.

China says "Up yours, Ballmer"

jhs — Fri, 19 Nov 2004 00:43:06 +0000

Like China gives a flying fig about US Companies and the "rights" they make up in the middle of the game.

This is true today, but likely not true in the future. My experience is Thailand, where there is still little recognition for foreign intellectual propertity rights (a common trend with developing countries, including the early United States, as documented by Lessig). However, the BSA is here and every year the country moves closer to respecting global copyright and patent law. This is mandatory if a country wishes to participate in the global economy. They will see increased pressure fromt he west to enforce their laws and treaties, since so much value lies in intellectual property. This is a good thing for everybody, including/especially open source software markets.

What is Microsoft left with?

TxtEdMacs — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 23:02:46 +0000

/* A multi-prong legal attack involving patent lawsuits (probably through third parties), mandating of patented/protected DRM technology for certain types of transactions (banking, interaction with government agencies), and laws outright banning the GPL.*/

You very well may be correct, indeed in the U.S. this battle might well be lost. However, I see MS actions as revealing act of desperation it can no longer work so far behind the scenes. They are being forced to act.

However, even if they <i>win</i>, they lose. Here and abroad there will be trade offs. There will be some significant corporate opposition and new engendered distrust of MS's ambitions. Abroad they may compromise current inroads and good will.

Consider India, which has a new research center promised with a fairly significant hiring in the offing by MS. If they are observed to be vicious to get their Windows only milieu in the U.S. their Indian partners are open to the nationalist card that they played to get into office. The middle class is large and significant in India, but much less so than imagined by our publications and TV. China would be a dead, complete loss - they remember too many slights by militarily superior, but to them culturally inferior states to follow any dictation by the U.S. Even the E.U. states might be miffed and more likely to pursue an independent path.

The sad truth is the U.S.A. is just not as important and the policies of the present regime has contributed to loss of status. So while MS can spend its political capital here, perhaps even unnoticed by the electorate it will be noted here and abroad in many places. Some may later play a role in paying back in kind.

OSRM != FSF

Ross — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:27:56 +0000

Ah, I see. The link didn't work for me so I guess I was responding without
the proper context. Sorry about that. I heard mumblings to the effect that
some of the individuals opposed to the EU approving software patents were
making great use of this study, but I don't know if that was FFII, the FSF,
or some other group. And I don't know if that means they paid for the study.
It's possible they just self-funded the study to get more publicity for their
insurance plans.

Does it matter ?

cpm — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:16:36 +0000

Actually, I think Ms Simon already sang the song, the ketchup marketing
folks in question just licensed it.

I'm not exactly sure if this is germane, but it might be.

Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)

NightMonkey — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:05:50 +0000

Here's another case for a non-subscriber submission limiting system of some sort...

Limiting comment posting rights

foo — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 22:00:05 +0000

> I hate to silence the non-subscribers; many of them have good things to say.

You wouldn't be silencing them. "Non-subscribers" were voicing their
(often excellent) opinions via the letters page long before the comment
feature was around.

The value of the site has been lowered, IMHO, by to the low
quality of the comments. I had always been impressed by the intelligence
and technical erudition in the letters page, and was surprised when
the comments turned out to not reflect that high standard.

I encourage our benevolent dictator to nix the J. Random Commenters.

Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)

nylesh — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:43:45 +0000

I've workesd with SPARWs which is the naval installation on the west coast. There are meny "windows" that have "holes" in them. Linux is the OS of chioce. For protection of our USA. All hackers love windows there are ports opened in e-mail, etc. They may have fixed them be now, I haven't use the "holes" in a long time.
All this compamy does is sue, my wife is name sue.Windows should be called the boy name sue.

What is Microsoft left with?

emkey — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 21:02:46 +0000

They'll fail when the pain level become too high for the world at large. Europe has already turned down software patents, at least for now.

As for the recording industry, you have a point. Part of the issue there though is not enough producers are willing to buck the trend.

These things are cyclical. The deeper/steeper a particular swing, the more severe the backlash. In many ways we're still suffering from the backlash of the 1960's for instance.

Limiting comment posting rights

sbergman27 — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:43:59 +0000

How about adding another subscription level at $0 which allows posting but no other added features. I really, really, hope LWN stays away from anything even remotely resembling the Slashdot moderation system.

It has the added advantage that you can remind them to renew their subscription periodically, and maybe next time they'll choose a higher level. :-)

Microsoft compared to SCO

Max.Hyre — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 20:28:55 +0000

My worry, which I haven't seen expressed yet, is based on the different antagonists. SCO is a fleaweight compared to IBM, and look at the time and cost so far. We're damn' lucky IBM is on our side for SCO.

But look at IBM's and MS's respective sizes. (I'm probably naive, going by market capitalization, even though it's strongly suggested that MSFT tweaks their books to maintain it.) MSFT is worth over twice IBM in the market. (Anyone with more knowledge of these things, please speak up. I got the info from an amateur site, but it looks plausible. [Turn on Javascript to see the current numbers]).

What this adds up to is that IBM would have a hell of a lot more resistance if MS tried patent pummelling. I don't know whether IBM could bring their patents to bear, since I suspect they have mutual patent licensing. Anyway, if MS gets directly involved, it's an entirely different fight.

Limiting comment posting rights

NightMonkey — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:35:20 +0000

Bear with me - I haven't had my coffee yet. How about allowing a single subscriber's nomination determine if a non-subscriber's submission is viewable? This way, it would not become like a Slashdot-like moderation system, but allow us to know that at least one paying subscriber authorized this posting to be viewed, and deemed it worthy.

It may still allow for some crud to get through (maybe because the subscriber didn't have enough coffee - or too much ;) ), but might limit it.

OSRM != FSF

lacostej — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:33:21 +0000

I know that. But if you read the press release:

"Well known patent attorney Dan Ravicher...senior counsel to the Free Software Foundation..."

The press release doesn't (except if I misread) says that the OSRM has commissioned the study. I have heard Richard Stallman using this argument in several of his speeches. So I concluded, perhaps too easily, that the FSF found the 283 potential patent issues themselves.

I would be really happy to know who really commissioned the study...

One more observation

tjc — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 19:16:59 +0000

To Microsoft/Sun/SCO and your kind - quit your whining and CLEAN UP YOUR ROOM or you're grounded! :-)

A fun analogy, but "cleaning their room" wouldn't work for MSFT, since they don't really have any significant assets other than their OS monopoly. Even if they DID make the best OS, the best Office Suite, etc., there's no reason to believe that they could retain 90 pecent plus market share if the deck wasn't stacked in their favor.

So I would expect them to keep up the FUD until the bitter end. It's the only thing they've got to fight with.

Limiting comment posting rights

paulj — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:31:19 +0000

Hmm, but if you do that then discussions will seem disjointed. I want to see good discussions still though.

A moderation system might be better, but obviously a lot more work.

A less involved solution that would keep views of discussions coherent would be to delay access to posting by non members for X hours (eg 12 or 24), how effective that would be is hard to judge - for contraversial topics it would at least mean that the initial comments would be the (hopefully) more considered opinions of subscribers.

regards,

--paulj

OSRM != FSF

Ross — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:23:57 +0000

OSRM is a kind of open source insurance company. The FSF is the organization
supporting the GNU project and many other Free Software projects.

Does it matter ?

ccchips — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:08:27 +0000

You aren't the one he's trying to reach.

Remember, we're talking about American marketing, where ketchup companies put their bottle in the refrigerator, and their competitions's bottle in the oven, and then hire Carlie Simon to sing about it.

What is Microsoft left with?

ccchips — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 18:06:03 +0000

Hmmm...see my earlier comment about the decline and fall of the United Nations (which, frankly, in my opinion, was largely created while the US was the only A-bomb holder.)

Ammo for anti-WTO folks?

tavis — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:56:05 +0000

Ballmer's remarks seem like a great soundbite for the anti-WTO movement....

Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)

thompsot — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:55:50 +0000

Steve is spewing out the typical FUD they're known for. I wouldn't sweat any of this.

Limiting comment posting rights

thompsot — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:54:24 +0000

Good idea

Limiting comment posting rights

corbet — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 17:13:12 +0000

"I ask once again: please, please would you limit comments to subscribers only."

I've been trying to figure out the right thing to do here for a while. I hate to silence the non-subscribers; many of them have good things to say. On the other hand, every now and then we get this sort of stuff. Frankly, I think we get very little of it, but it does happen.

What I might do is add an option so that only subscriber-posted comments are visible. Non-subscribers could post, but subscribers who do not want to see them could filter them (and perhaps all subtrees below them) out.

What is Microsoft left with?

ewan — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:58:04 +0000

> Pretty much any restrictive legislation can be passed in the US now

That is how it would wound them. If the cost of dealing with the US
becomes too high to bear we'll all just stop doing it.

Microsoft issues warning about Linux lawsuits (Reuters)

AJWM — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:44:32 +0000

As I recall, at they same time OSRM announced those 283 possible patents, they also announced their own indemnification/insurance scheme for Linux users. It's a non-issue.

What is Microsoft left with?

sphealey — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:43:12 +0000

> If they go this route they'll fail and it will
> wound them big time.

Unfortunately I don't have time to write an essay, so please don't take offense at how my tone comes across.

Why will they fail? How will it wound them? The recording and movie industries are being VERY successful at crushing any alternative distribution channels and having those who disagree with them crushed in court (not excepting 12 year old children).

Pretty much any restrictive legislation can be passed in the US now by referencing "terrorism". DRM will be pushed through on a HomeSec bill. Outlawing of GPL will be attached to a DoD appropriation. No legislator will dare to vote against the bills just to excise those small section - not after what happened to Kerry.

Sorry, but that is where I see it heading.

sPh

What is Microsoft left with?

emkey — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:26:27 +0000

If they go this route they'll fail and it will wound them big time. Gates is stubborn as heck but I don't think he's this stupid. Microsoft fought the Internet tooth and nail in the early 90's. When it became obvious they couldn't win they did a complete 180. Look for them to do the same here as well.

I suspect a lot of this stupidity is coming from people other then Gates who were raised in the rather retarded Microsoft culture. Of course that culture is his creation.

One more observation

ccchips — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:24:32 +0000

What's worse is that some of us are those kid's staff, or the staff who work for their customers. We have to DO THINGS in their messy rooms.

It's almost as if your kids, after being told to clean up their room, had their friends in the neighborhood gang come over and throw paint all over your back yard.....

...not the best analogy, but you get the idea....

What is Microsoft left with?

sphealey — Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:20:08 +0000

> What are they left with?

A multi-prong legal attack involving patent lawsuits (probably through third parties), mandating of patented/protected DRM technology for certain types of transactions (banking, interaction with government agencies), and laws outright banning the GPL.

They have been laying the groundwork for this for about 2 years now; I would expect some serious movement in the next 12 months while "political capital" is being spent.

sPh