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Development quotes of the week

What I noticed overall is that there is a sort of moral contract with users that increases both trust and feature delivery: by being extremely careful not to break old LTS releases, we definitely have a part of the user base, the one most sensitive to bugs, that is perfectly secured by running slow-moving releases. These ones almost never face a regression, and if one ever happens due to a problematic fix, we have no problem instantly emitting another version with only this issue fixed. This allows us to be a bit more aggressive on recent versions. The latest stable that is not LTS can move a little bit and receive a few occasional backports for harmless popular features. This way the share of the population which values features more than stability tests new features early and shares interesting feedback that allows to improve these features before they're widely adopted. And in parallel sensitive users almost never face a breakage. This means that the pressure on the development team caused by bug reports usually is extremely low: bugs being worked on generally do not affect users in a critical way.

Willy Tarreau

In retrospect, it seems clear that open source was not so much the goal itself as a means to an end, which is freedom: freedom to fix broken things, freedom from people who thought they could clutch the source code tightly and wield our ignorance of it as a weapon to force us all to pay for and run Windows Vista.

But the FOSS movement has won what it wanted, and no matter how much oldsters dream about their glorious days as young revolutionaries, it is not coming back; the frustrations and anger of IT in 2024 are entirely different from those of 1991.

One very big difference is that more people have realized that source code is a liability rather than an asset. For some, that realization came creeping along the path from young teenage FOSS activists in the late 1990s to CIOs of BigCorp today. For most of us, I expect, it was the increasingly crushing workload of maintaining legacy code bases. But the thing that will convince anyone is that one single server still runs OS version N-4, because we have not yet found out why it stops working when we attempt to upgrade it.

But we can figure it out, and we will figure it out—because we have the source code. We have all 562,227 lines of Perl5 source code for it.

Poul-Henning Kamp

to post comments

Poe's Law aside,

Posted Jul 11, 2024 18:18 UTC (Thu) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (3 responses)

It'd have to be Perl if you're bringing up lines of code as a metric to support any kind of hyperbole — those other languages have never heard of writing tests!

Poe's Law aside,

Posted Jul 11, 2024 20:22 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

I always had this impression that with Perl it doesn't matter whether you have source or not, you couldn't fix anything either way.

I guess there are exist people who can fix things it random 562,227 lines of perl, but I haven't seen them.

Poe's Law aside,

Posted Jul 11, 2024 22:13 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> I guess there are exist people who can fix things it random 562,227 lines of perl, but I haven't seen them.

...So it's a good thing that this is a strawman example!

(For fun, replace 'perl' with 'python'. If you don't involuntarily shudder you've never had to deal with any non-toy python codebases...)

Poe's Law aside,

Posted Jul 12, 2024 7:44 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

I worked with python programs of similar sizes. These were not fun, but you, at least, have some ideas about what these programs do (if not always have an idea why and why that doesn't work). In Perl, because of it's context-sensitive grammar, it's not always obvious that type of object the linenoise you are observing is even trying to [ab]use.

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 11, 2024 19:38 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (16 responses)

I'm not sure what the author is trying to say here; if "source code is a liability" then it doesn't matter if it's "open" or not.

Unless the author is basically saying the only "freedom" that matters is the "freedom to have someone else to do (ie pay for) all the work maintaining things we rely on".

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 6:44 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (5 responses)

I think this is the more general observation that even "free as in beer" code is really "like a free puppy", not an asset you hold that has value but something that requires a non-zero amount of maintenance and ongoing cost to keep providing value, otherwise it stops working, has security issues, whatever and you can't just assume that the magical "someone else" will fix it up for you, like their example of an app that needs migrating which will be possible to debug but require significant effort.

I'm starting to get the sense that the IT industry has gotten out over their skis a bit, most development effort seems to be wasted on get-rich-quick schemes that push more computing in more places (Web3 NFT AI with SPA and Electron apps!!!1!) but with very little attention paid to the ongoing maintenance needs of all the FOSS infrastructure that actually powers everything. Maintainers get tired of being taken advantage of when whole industries are built atop their tools and all they get is heartburn.

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 11:04 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

> I'm starting to get the sense that the IT industry has gotten out over their skis a bit, most development effort seems to be wasted on get-rich-quick schemes that push more computing in more places (Web3 NFT AI with SPA and Electron apps!!!1!) but with very little attention paid to the ongoing maintenance needs of all the FOSS infrastructure that actually powers everything. Maintainers get tired of being taken advantage of when whole industries are built atop their tools and all they get is heartburn.

I don't know who to place the blame on - clueless journalists, "OOh shiny" university grads with no experience of the real world, ivory tower academics who seem to get blamed for everything, politicians who "we need to do SOMETHING, this is SOMETHING", but new tech is seen as the answer to every problem.

Including - as is becoming painfully more obvious to me with the passing of time - they believe tech can solve the problem of older / disabled people being left behind by the rapid advance of tech!!! EXCUSE ME?

As I like to put it, if the time taken for someone to learn new tech, is longer than the lifetime of said new tech (especially now that end-of-life tech usually stops working, it doesn't linger on offline for years), then people with a learning difficulty of any sort will simply be left behind. They just can NOT keep up. That's a significant portion of the over-50s, and the proportion goes up in line with age!

Cheers,
Wol

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 12:16 UTC (Fri) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

> Including - as is becoming painfully more obvious to me with the passing of time - they believe tech can solve the problem of older / disabled people being left behind by the rapid advance of tech!!! EXCUSE ME?

It's not so simple. We're going to reach the point where there are only two working people for every elderly person (yay baby boomers), so we won't have enough people to hold everybody's hand. Already over 1 in 6 employed people is working in health industry, mostly looking after elderly people and that number will rise to 1 in 4. If we want to maintain our standard of living we're going to need to make everything *much* more productive, and tech is the biggest productivity multiplier we have.

So sure, a percentage of elderly is not going to be able to keep up, but every percent that does translates to workers who can produce other useful stuff.

The alternative is of course immigration, but that has its own issues.

[Stats for NL]

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 13:36 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> So sure, a percentage of elderly is not going to be able to keep up, but every percent that does translates to workers who can produce other useful stuff.

Agreed. but to give a concrete example of the complete discongruence between perception and reality - my mother-in-law gave me an advert for a tablet - THAT WAS PROMOTED AS EXCELLENT FOR THE ELDERLY. Firstly, I looked at it and my reaction was "that's just an ordinary tablet. What they're touting as brilliant is what comes as standard with Android" (and I guess comes with Apple too).

Then they had quotes from this "elderly lady" - "OMG since I had this life has been wonderful!" It then gave her age in the small print - a year older than me and not yet retirement age!!! I had to say to my mother-in-law "If Dad can't cope with his existing tablet, this is just more of the same, it won't help any".

The problem you're missing is that "a percentage of the elderly" translates to "probably more than 75%, maybe even 90%". I don't like to think of myself as old, but I'm certainly on the wrong side of middle-aged, and as an older person I simply cannot be arsed with a lot of tech. But my experience (and I have a lot, volunteering with Parkinsons UK) is that older people, and elderly people especially, CANNOT COPE with tech. I'm fed up to the back teeth of repeatedly trying to fix all my friends' issues - mostly caused because updates have changed things - and because they haven't yet caught up with updates from years before, they're finding it harder and harder to keep up with new changes. Like one friend who says "Why is One Drive repeatedly saying its running out of space? They want to charge me for extra space but my ISP provides more space than I need, for free!". They don't have a clue how to disable OneDrive, and I suspect they've got 11 Home which won't let them ...

I just get fed up with issue after issue - made worse because (a) my home computers run gentoo so I don't encounter them personally, and (b) my work computers are locked down so I just complain to tech support!

> The alternative is of course immigration, but that has its own issues.

Including the fact that this "Western" imbalance is rapidly becoming a global imbalance. I remember the days when "OMG it'll be amazing if the population at Y2K is only 8Bn - it's more likely to be 12Bn". I don't think it had even reached 6Bn! Since then we've undershot EVERY prediction I know of. What happens when we undershoot the Y21C prediction of 3Bn ... (still that won't be our problem :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 12:44 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> but with very little attention paid to the ongoing maintenance needs of all the FOSS infrastructure that actually powers everything.

This phenomena is not isolated to F/OSS infrastructure, or even software as a whole. In most places, civil infrastructure is crumbling, for much the same underlying reasons -- "someone else should pay for it"

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 15:22 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> "someone else should pay for it"

It's not even that. It's "Companies need to make obscene profits to pay for it".

Civil infrastructure should be owned by the users. They need to pay for it. But to take the UK (and the GPO / BT in particular) as an example, before 1984 the UK phone system was (mostly) owned by central government. It was falling to bits because management weren't allowed to manage, they couldn't replace or renew equipment, and were paying huge amounts of money to keep obsolete kit going. They couldn't borrow (like any normal business) to replace kit because it was part of the PSBR, and the government felt that a big PSBR reflected badly on them. But nor could they pay to replace it out of revenue, because any increase in prices to enable them to save a bit of cash promptly caught the Treasury's eye, who would then declare a big dividend and take it off them. So they STILL had no money to buy new kit.

Compare that with Kingston Telecom, owned by the City of Kingston Upon Hull or something like that. To the best of my knowledge (it was a long time ago), their system was state of the art because the local council just let them get on with it, and they also had the cheapest bills in the country.

Then the government sold the GPO off as British Telecom. I think they were legally obliged to cut prices by about 4% in real terms (ie if inflation was 10% they could only raise prices 6%). They didn't care, as they embarked on a massive modernisation project, and payback time for most investment was just a couple of years - the reduction in maintenance costs paid for the new kit outright in no time flat. The biggest problem was sourcing the kit and training up in the new skills. But now they're a big business, and replacing and upgrading infrastructure is seen as a cost that the longer they can delay, the better. And we've got the same problem with water, gas, electric, etc etc.

The government has sort-of fixed it, but that now brings almost more problems than it solves. For telecoms, the infrastructure is now owned by OpenReach who are sort-of a separate company from BT. But that's a horror story in itself. For gas and electric, local companies have a monopoly on infrastructure, but consumers can buy from any supplier and it's delivered over the local monopoly's infrastructure. But still there's not a lot of incentive to have good infrastructure.

Imho, the infrastructure should be spun off into local co-operatives, owned by the users! Whether I pay my co-operative for the infrastructure, or I pay my supplier of choice and they pay a transport charge to the co-operative is up for discussion, but either way I am directly affected by, and have a say in, the quality of the infrastructure. Equally importantly, there is no supplier monopoly for services over that infrastructure. So if us locals *choose* not to maintain the infrastructure, that's our problem. Equally, if we choose to upgrade it, that's our benefit. I suspect most people would pay to upgrade, because they can see the benefits.

But at present you get the current mess like at our local water company. The press make a huge fuss about "large bonuses", but I suspect that money is a drip in the reservoir. The government places demands on them to spend, then places caps on how much they can charge, then wonders why they go bust!

And the press makes matters worse by wilfully misunderstanding everything. What other industry does NOT raise prices at times of peak demand? Or alternatively cut the quality of service? But when a bunch of towns lost their water supply because the towns lower down the hill were using it all, the press scream blue bloody murder. I'm sorry, but if a company has no way of choking off excess demand, a lot of people are going to go short!

Cheers,
Wol

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 12, 2024 10:43 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (9 responses)

All code is a liability - binary or source - and the absence of source availability makes it a bigger liability. So, to extend the analogy to breaking point, source code is like a free puppy; binaries are a free wolf. If you're willing to put the work in, source code can become a lovely dog to work with; binaries need you to keep coming back to the expert for help dealing with the latest way in which it's demonstrating that it's a wild animal, not a domesticated critter.

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 18, 2024 18:52 UTC (Thu) by mrugiero (guest, #153040) [Link] (8 responses)

As a counterpoint, closed source does have two "advantages", if only in the imaginary world of words:
1. There is one clear responsible party for its maintenance or its deprecation.
2. It can much more easily be called deprecated.

The point here is that, for a start, this call things by its name and may put things in motion more quickly: if your provider deprecates software A 1.0 you are much more compelled to migrate quickly, either to 2.0 or to the competition, but won't indefinitely stay in version 1.0 because "it is open source, we can fork it and fix it" only to never really pay attention to it.
The other point in favor is that it makes it a bit more robust against tragedies of the common, as the provider can either go bankrupt and automatically deprecate stuff or make a profit and be able to do proper maintenance, while for community projects companies have strong incentives to take but not give (the same is true for individuals, but I find them less relevant in terms of the amount of money they can provide for development).

That said, some models do allow for FOSS to be commercially viable and have one company be clearly responsible, thus having a reduced bus factor and a sustainable flow of cash to fuel development, it's just harder since most of the experience is in the older closed ways.

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 18, 2024 19:22 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (7 responses)

> The point here is that, for a start, this call things by its name and may put things in motion more quickly: if your provider deprecates software A 1.0 you are much more compelled to migrate quickly, either to 2.0 or to the competition, but won't indefinitely stay in version 1.0 because "it is open source, we can fork it and fix it" only to never really pay attention to it.

Aren't there still XP installs floating around? Is Microsoft (rightfully) milking them for exorbitant fees or are they just forging off into the wilds alone?

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 18, 2024 23:52 UTC (Thu) by mrugiero (guest, #153040) [Link] (1 responses)

> Aren't there still XP installs floating around? Is Microsoft (rightfully) milking them for exorbitant fees or are they just forging off into the wilds alone?

The right question here is, is there anyone hate-mailing Microsoft because they no longer support it? Is there any commercial venture depending on those, or are those just individuals? Are they both critical and connected to the internet? Does Chrome still have to support builds for it? Firefox? Any other modern software?
My point was mostly that it helps properly level the expectations. Right now, I think anyone using XP accepts that if it breaks they get to keep both parts and nothing else.

Hate-mail for deprecation

Posted Jul 19, 2024 9:56 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The right question here is, is there anyone hate-mailing Microsoft because they no longer support it? Is there any commercial venture depending on those, or are those just individuals? Are they both critical and connected to the internet? Does Chrome still have to support builds for it? Firefox? Any other modern software?

FWIW, the answer to all of those bar the browsers (who've simply said "no") is "yes, there are companies trying to demand that Windows 2000 and XP get supported for them for free, because they haven't yet completed their evaluation of Windows Vista or Windows 7, and are thus not ready to move on". The concrete difference between Windows 2000 and the Linux 2.2 kernel series is that if you "demand" support for Windows 2000, Microsoft will give you a quote for the cost of formally quoting you for support. And if you're not willing to pay, they're not willing to support you.

The only difference is that requests to get Microsoft to support their ancient crud get routed via layers of bureaucracy that aim to extract money in return for devoting engineering resource to you; request for F/OSS projects to support ancient crud get routed directly to developers, who aren't always the best at saying "no, not unless you pay a lot of money" and dealing with the resulting anger from users who don't want to pay money, but want this for free.

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 19, 2024 12:12 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (4 responses)

> Aren't there still XP installs floating around? Is Microsoft (rightfully) milking them for exorbitant fees or are they just forging off into the wilds alone?

I'm sure there's loads of industrial gear still running XP - the NHS is probably a case in point.

We are certainly running a virtual XP here at home.

The thing is though, the authentication servers have been shut down, so unless you're paying MS some exorbitant contract maintenance, if anything goes wrong you're SOL. "wipe and re-install" is not an option!

Cheers,
Wol

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 19, 2024 12:33 UTC (Fri) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link] (3 responses)

A customer of the company I work for recently bought a second-hand ship with some specialty equipment, controlled by a SCADA system (via some PLCs) running on, I kid you not, Windows NT Workstation 4.0 on a Pentium III Compaq Deskpro.

(Needless to say he's looking for a better solution, for an alternative for when that computer will inevitably fail. NT is already refusing to boot most of the time. I made an image of the hard disk in the hope of getting it to run in a VM, but I couldn't get it to work. He has contacted the company that delivered the software all these years ago, and it looks like they're going to be able to help him).

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 19, 2024 16:59 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

I've got CDs and OS keys (if I can find them), but will an OS that old even boot on a new PC?

And will VirtualBox support it?

If you want it, you can find my email addy on the linux raid site.

Cheers,
Wol

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 20, 2024 0:05 UTC (Sat) by rschroev (subscriber, #4164) [Link] (1 responses)

One of the problems is that Windows NT installations are tied quite closely to the hardware they run on. Some specific drivers are installed when installing NT, and you can't just transfer the whole thing to another computer. There's supposed to be a way around, but I couldn't get it to work. I tried new hardware, I tried VirtualBox, I tried VMWare Workstation Player. I tried creating a fresh NT install in VirtualBox (I found a Windows NT ISO with a key), and copying the relevant files and registry keys over. That last attempt was the most successful, in that the system booted up properly. But the SCADA software didn't want to run properly; apparently there must be some configuration that I missed.

That's where it stops for us. A job like this is quite far from our core business, I already spent too much time on this. But thanks for the offer.

Oh, something I forgot to mention: luckily this Windows NT system was never connected to the Internet. No chance of nasty malware infections.

Uh... If source code is a "liability" then what do you call _not_ having source code?

Posted Jul 20, 2024 0:27 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Migrating old Windows systems is a bit of an art because complicated Windows applications can install themselves all over the place. In particular, a SCADA system will most likely use OPC (OLE for Process Control), so you'll need to trace all the COM libraries that are used, port them over, and register them on the new system ("regsvr32 <lib.dll>").


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