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The road to Zettalinux

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 16, 2022 19:23 UTC (Fri) by mb (subscriber, #50428)
In reply to: The road to Zettalinux by Cyberax
Parent article: The road to Zettalinux

> this leaves us with just 16 bits in reserve

This is over 65000 times of what you currently have.


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The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 16, 2022 19:41 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

Not if those bits get used for flags ...

Cheers,
Wol

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 17, 2022 11:53 UTC (Sat) by milesrout (guest, #126894) [Link] (1 responses)

Memory addresses are for addressing memory. If you want space for extra flags, create a struct with a 'flags' member.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 17, 2022 21:21 UTC (Sat) by colejohnson66 (subscriber, #134046) [Link]

Tell that to Intel and AMD who are proposing to let programs use those bits for whatever they want. As if they completely forgot the entire purpose of "canonical" addresses and "32 bit clean" programs.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 16, 2022 20:24 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

The 128TB was for a "mass market" machine. I looked up supercomputers and apparently we are already at around 4PB size (HPE Frontier). So we're at 2^52 already, giving us just 11 bits of leeway.

If we double the capacity every 2 years, that's 22 years from now. And we'll be getting uncomfortable with the address space exhaustation long before we reach the actual limit.

And its storage is at 250PB, so that's 2^58 if you want direct RAM mapping of it.

So yep, we should start to plan for 128 bit now. It's not a pressing concern by any means, but it's something that we should start taking into account for future long-term designs.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 17, 2022 4:23 UTC (Sat) by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648) [Link] (10 responses)

Moore's Law is dead and buried, so it'll probably be more than 22 years. That said, if you're insane enough and have enough money, you can of course wire together as much RAM as you want into a single machine. So, eventually, perhaps someone will want a 128-bit Linux distro.

I just hope the rest of us can keep using 64-bit. As someone who very rarely has a need to run programs that take more than 4GB of memory on his personal machines, I am miffed that I need to pay the cost of 64-bit pointers everywhere. As the author of a malloc() implementation that would work extremely well if x64 pointer tagging were a thing, though, I think I'm going to be glad 64-bit pointers are the standard quite soon.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 17, 2022 4:35 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

> Moore's Law is dead and buried

It's not. It just became more step-like, rather than gradual.

EUV litography took a lot of time to be developed, but now it can work almost all the way to atomic level.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 19, 2022 17:34 UTC (Mon) by linuxrocks123 (subscriber, #34648) [Link] (5 responses)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count

Go back to 2010. Most dense released processor had a transistor density of 4,875,000 transistors per square millimeter. According to Moore's Law, processors in 2022 should have pow(2,6)=64 times as many transistors per square millimeter today. That would be 312,000,000 transistors per square millimeter. Reality? 139,300,000 per square millimeter.

It's dead, Jim.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 19, 2022 18:30 UTC (Mon) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

Hmm, originally Moore's law said doubling every 12 months, then it was revised plus six to 18 months, then another six more to 24 months and by your numbers we are apparently now at 30 months doubling time.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 19, 2022 19:51 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

So we've missed it by about ONE cycle in TEN years.

If we've missed it, it's "close, have a cigar".

Cheers,
Wol

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 20, 2022 9:59 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

Moore's "law" was about # transistors on a device though, not density per se. If a company can get more transistors on a device with improved processes that deliver higher yield, and so can produce a device with more transistors by virtue of being able to produce a larger device for essentially the same cost, then that contributes to Moore's "law", regardless of density.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 20, 2022 10:02 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Subject for discussion: Does 'chiplet' technology count towards Moore's "law"? Should a set of chiplets, bound together on a single silicon substrate signalling and power/clock, be considered one 'device' for the purposes of Moore's law?

Cause that technology has enabled manufacturers to produce GPUs and CPUs with far greater numbers of transistors than would have been (economically) possible before...

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 20, 2022 11:05 UTC (Tue) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

It wasn't even about # transistors on a device - it was about # transistors you could affordably put on a single device. In its original form, Moore speculated that the number of transistors you could get on one device at the cheapest cost-per-transistor would double every 18 months - you can get this by doubling the number of transistors you put on a device while holding the price fixed, or you can halve the cost per transistor and still meet the original formulation - indeed, if you look at the original article by Dr Moore, the graph on page 2 suggests that even when he came up with the rule, it was already the case that you got both reduced cost-per-transistor and increased density working together to make the rule true.

People forget that Moore's Law is purely about the economics of producing more complex devices - for as long as it holds, it's a good engineering tradeoff to assume that, if you can only afford $50 per IC manufactured, you'll be able to buy the equivalent of today's $100 one in 18 months (or whatever the current Moore's Law timeframe is) and thus can plan for being able to afford that complexity, rather than trying to make your design fit within the $50 choice.

But with Dennard scaling coming to an end (because leakage currents can no longer be neglected), this doesn't necessarily translate into improved performance, or improved energy consumption - just into reduced price for devices of a given complexity. This has been most evident in games console pricing - at launch, they're using devices that are slightly too expensive for the product, preventing the console maker from profiting on the hardware, but within 5 years, you're getting cost-reduced versions where the console maker is making a profit on the reduced price version.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 22, 2022 0:44 UTC (Thu) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah, x32 (amd64ilp32) was a nice thing, especially to reduce web browser memory consumption by naturally giving it only 4 GiB minus a few KiB to work in, while at the same time letting it keep the wider and more registers amd64 has.

Wish it had taken off better. I did run it on a machine until I switched all my Debian systems from sid to bullseye to avoid the UsrMove fiasco.

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 22, 2022 1:41 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

Avoiding usrmerge is fairly easy using equivs and or the usrmerge config file.

https://github.com/jwilk/usr-is-not-merged/
https://sources.debian.org/src/usrmerge/31/debian/README....

The road to Zettalinux

Posted Sep 22, 2022 15:12 UTC (Thu) by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359) [Link]

Yeah, but it’s unsupported now, which is a PITA. Plus, it will not work right, but kilobyte already wrote about that enough and is… suppressed.

I even consider the forced UsrMove a violation of SC§4, but what do I know…


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