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K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

[Posted June 13, 2022 by corbet]

The Thunderbird project's announcement of its plans for an Android client contain a bit of a surprise:

To that end, we’re thrilled to announce that today, K-9 Mail officially joins the Thunderbird family. And [K9 maintainer Christian Ketterer] has already joined the full-time Thunderbird staff, bringing along his valuable expertise and experience with mobile platforms.

Ultimately, K-9 Mail will transform into Thunderbird on Android.

That means the name itself will change and adopt Thunderbird branding. Before that happens, we need to reach certain development milestones that will bring K-9 Mail into alignment with Thunderbird’s feature set and visual appearance.


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K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 14:09 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (11 responses)

EWWW. Thunderbird's feature set and visual appearance is IMHO horrible and borderline unusable compared to K-9's. I hope this is a joke :(

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 19:18 UTC (Mon) by ajmacleod (guest, #1729) [Link] (10 responses)

I see it's not just my heart that sank upon reading the headline. After reading the article I'm even less clear on exactly what it is happening but given the terminal, suicidal incompetence of the Mozilla project over the last several years I would be astonished if good came from this.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 2:55 UTC (Tue) by re:fi.64 (subscriber, #132628) [Link]

Thunderbird is independent from the Mozilla company and has its own funding.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 8:12 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (8 responses)

Mozilla isn't suicidal or incompetent unless you mean choosing to compete with an independent browser engine against Google is a suicidal and/or incompetent decision.

Mozilla has made lots of mistakes. Its competitors have also made lots of mistakes. Their big competitors (Apple and Google) simply buried those mistakes and moved on, since they have massive market power and practically unlimited resources. Other competitors (Microsoft, Opera) simply gave up and submitted to Google.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 16:16 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (7 responses)

> Mozilla isn't suicidal or incompetent unless you mean choosing to compete with an independent browser engine against Google is a suicidal and/or incompetent decision.

Never-ending UI reworks absolutely are the incompetent decision making. Each rework resulting in a portion of users going away from Firefox, until FF became a complete non-entity.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 15, 2022 6:34 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (6 responses)

"Never change the UI" is not viable in the long term, unfortunately, if you want to attract new users. And a strategy of "never attract new users" is suicidal in the long term.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 15, 2022 6:44 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (5 responses)

> "Never change the UI" is not viable in the long term

How many times have Mutt changed the UI? Or emacs? It absolutely can be a long-term strategy. Just don't break the users' workflow for no reason.

Heck, Chrome has not changed the UI a lot. Here's the release version from 2009: https://regmedia.co.uk/2009/11/19/chrom_os_panels.png and here's the current one: https://www.google.com/chrome/ Basically, the only difference are more streamlined icons and the braindead indistinct "material UI" colors.

Now look at FF in 2014: https://ffp4g1ylyit3jdyti1hqcvtb-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/press-uk/files/2014/11/Fx-ForgetMenu_en-US.jpg and now https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/ - the degradation of the UI hits you like a brick.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 15, 2022 10:02 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

Man I had actually forgotten just how much better FF used to look. It's past the point now where it's not just an aesthetic degradation but a serious usability problem. It's hard to imagine what these designers could possibly be thinking.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 15, 2022 13:10 UTC (Wed) by chalst (guest, #159060) [Link] (1 responses)

How many full-time developers does Mutt, Inc employ?

How many projects do the FSF support, and how essential is FSF support to the success of Emacs?

Do you think that Mozilla Corp switching to the development model of Mutt or Emacs would advance the values of the Mozilla Foundation?

I'm inclined to think that neither Mutt nor Emacs are good examples for the case you were originally trying to make.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 15, 2022 16:22 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> How many full-time developers does Mutt, Inc employ?

You're telling me that developers can't work without ruining the UI?

Nope. The UI sabotage in FF is a deliberate decision, there was nothing inevitable in it.

And as a result they are falling behind on core features like HDR support, WebAuthn, JavaScript speed, etc.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 16, 2022 17:54 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (1 responses)

Dunno about mutt, but emacs certainly isn't attracting new users.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 16, 2022 22:57 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Neither does FireFox. It's market share is constantly declining. It's pretty clear by now that endless redesigns are not helping AT ALL.

But at least vim and mutt seem to keep their existing users.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 14:25 UTC (Mon) by mss (subscriber, #138799) [Link]

I'm curious how they are going to marry two very different codebases:
  • The first one consisting mainly of C++ plus JavaScript,
  • The second one being a mix of Java plus Kotlin.
Or is it supposed to be marriage-in-branding-only?

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 14:27 UTC (Mon) by Quazatron (guest, #4368) [Link]

I've been using Thunderbird for many, many years and it always served me well.
It is nice that Mozilla adopted K9 instead of falling prey to the "not invented here" syndrome.
Maybe some good things emerge from this synergy, like some K9 features finding their way to Thunderbird desktop and vice-versa.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 14:29 UTC (Mon) by milliams (guest, #71641) [Link]

To my understanding this means that the current Android Thunderbird client (if there is even such a thing, I don't know) will be phased out and K-9 will be renamed (and rebranded) to "Thunderbird for Android"

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 14:57 UTC (Mon) by bferrell (subscriber, #624) [Link] (12 responses)

Sorry.. K9 sucks as it is

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 15:21 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (11 responses)

Sure, but I don't know of any mutt-for-Android app. Until then, we're doomed to sucky email clients in our pockets and K-9 is the least sucky that I've found at least. :)

If this means we get more development behind K-9 again, I'm all for it (I suppose this is the root cause for the OAuth2 work lately).

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 13, 2022 15:37 UTC (Mon) by Herve5 (subscriber, #115399) [Link] (7 responses)

If I may, for those of you ambitious or just wanting detail control, there is the open source FairEmail, https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail , which offers almost more features than Thunderbird with extensions...

I'm using it with a dozen accounts. Its only drawback is, IF you request keeping 1000s of emails locally and indexing them, it appears somehow slower than K9 (only in that event) -but definitely it's a full index.

It is extremely adjustable, for instance you can read html emails without loading the pixel-only images that'd disclose your reading, load images or attachments later, present graphically threaded discussions, etc.

Single author apparently (?) thus fragile, but updates almost weekly, has been for years, and reacts immediately to comments...
To pay the author, a really minor subset of features are unlocked only if you donate some € (a transaction extremely careful of your privacy)

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 13, 2022 16:39 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

As I really only read email on my phone (I send maybe one a month through it due to timing or as a quick file transfer mechanism). The only thing that *really* matters is proper threading when reading. That is, based on Message-id, not subject similarity indexes. K-9 was the only one to not be infected with the brain-dead GMail behavior that I had found (I forget if FairEmail was around when I was perusing).

I'll also note that FairEmail's F-Droid distribution does not support OAuth for Google accounts as its client signup was denied. I don't know how long non-OAuth access to email will work in the long run (enterprise accounts are already being locked down AFAIK).

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 14, 2022 8:13 UTC (Tue) by hvd (guest, #128680) [Link] (1 responses)

This appears to contradict FairEmail's FAQ, https://github.com/M66B/FairEmail/blob/master/FAQ.md#user..., which says that F-Droid would need to ask for permissions. It suggests they haven't asked, rather than that they got "no" as an answer.

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 14, 2022 11:02 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

F-Droid does support publishing upstream binaries (if they're reproducible), so upstream could use their own OAuth keys without giving them to the F-Droid developers as well. I don't know what the right solution here is.

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 13, 2022 21:34 UTC (Mon) by tbleher (guest, #48307) [Link]

I switched to FairEmail from K-9 a while ago, and have not looked back (still using mutt on the desktop). So a strong recommendation for (the paid version of) FairEmail.

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 13, 2022 22:21 UTC (Mon) by ejr (subscriber, #51652) [Link] (2 responses)

This. And if you feel like building your own, you don't need to pay. You do lose the ActiveSync bit, of course, but that's not up to the author. He doesn't hide how to enable features in the code. I've paid once so far, and likely will again. If you pay through an app store, your authorizations are linked to that store. If you have a device that does not or cannot use that app store... But the payment is relatively cheap. The author doesn't hide how to enable things yourself. All the code is there.

I mostly use my phone and PineNote for email triage. YMMV.

And FairEmail was removed by teh Goog for a bit for something silly.

I do wish there were a way to build your own modifications while keeping ActiveSync (blech, yuck, but work). But I also don't really have the time to *make* my own modifications... I wish I could finish my Gnus customizations as well (show number new since last entering a group), but the same applies. Kinda like I wish LWN were available via nntps. But many of us saw the gmane economics play out.

FairEmail?

Posted Jun 13, 2022 22:45 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (1 responses)

> And FairEmail was removed by teh Goog for a bit for something silly.

I think the postmortem was that it was reasonable because some feature wasn't strictly conforming. However, the kerfuffle was rooted in Google support being about as useful as a wet paper bag unless you have a way around the useless echo-server-over-email they seem to use.

Google Play dev support

Posted Jun 14, 2022 3:53 UTC (Tue) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

Yes, Google Play developer support is... not exactly helpful. One time I tried to publish and app and they rejected it because I had marked it as possibly interesting to children, or whatever their phrase is, and it didn't have a privacy policy. That's perfectly reasonable... except it did have a privacy policy. In the privacy policy URL box, I put a URL to a .txt file on my site that said (accurately) "This app collects no information whatsoever." I then appealed the decision, and got a similar response. I appealed again, and was finally told what the problem was: my privacy policy didn't contain the word "privacy." I changed the txt file to "This app protects your privacy by collecting no information whatsoever," resubmitted the app with no changes to the listing, and they published it with no issues.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 1:50 UTC (Tue) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link] (2 responses)

Have you tried running mutt in Termux? I haven't because I just use SOGo webmail, but mutt would probably work fine on Android.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 6:01 UTC (Tue) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (1 responses)

Maybe if you have a blackberry-like keypad. (I do, but still not tempted. I use mutt on desktop but not exclusively.)

I may give fairemail a try.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 14:07 UTC (Tue) by KJ7RRV (subscriber, #153595) [Link]

I don't use mutt, but I do use vim and several other CLI programs with a regular touchscreen keyboard. (Termux adds Ctrl, Alt, and other keys phone keyboards don't have.)

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 17:50 UTC (Mon) by IanKelling (subscriber, #89418) [Link]

This seems like all around great news: making better free software mail client with a more recognizable brand.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 18:00 UTC (Mon) by tome (subscriber, #3171) [Link] (4 responses)

Didn't Mozilla want to wash its hands of Thunderbird just a few years ago, only to reverse the decision in the face of widespread protestations? My but things have changed, it seems.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 13, 2022 18:43 UTC (Mon) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (3 responses)

At the peak of their marketing-droid-led blunders they threw away more or less everything that couldn't easily be rebranded "Firefox"; Thunderbird and Seamonkey, shutting down their self-hosted IRC network and firing the remaining talent (the ones that didn't walk out or get forced out via a PIP after the Verizon TV show adver-trojan scandal).

The plan seems to be to hollow out the company to maximise short-term CEO profit (which everyone outside the reality distortion field's been trying to warn of for a while) and get outside FOSS devs to do spec work on their own time for peanuts. That worked out great for AOL with the original Mozilla.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 14, 2022 8:14 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (2 responses)

There are still many talented people at Mozilla.

Shutting down irc.mozilla.org was a great move. Matrix is much better.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 21, 2022 19:42 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Matrix is much better, but Mozilla had to be dragged kicking and screaming into that instead of moving its support operations to *Discord*.

K9 mail to become Thunderbird on Android

Posted Jun 23, 2022 2:28 UTC (Thu) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

Matrix is better for Matrix users (although I see a lot of them complain on IRC, so maybe even that is debatable).


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