The illusion of apparent simplicity [LWN.net]

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 2, 2022 14:00 UTC (Mon) by ncm (guest, #165)
In reply to: The illusion of apparent simplicity by ddevault
Parent article: DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

People who fail to understand failures past are doomed to repeat them. Hare repeats them, and sets up users to repeat them, indefinitely.

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The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 2, 2022 14:02 UTC (Mon) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link] (6 responses)

>People who fail to understand failures past are doomed to repeat them.

Precisely my thoughts on Rust.

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 2, 2022 15:07 UTC (Mon) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (5 responses)

Hare addresses none of the problems solved by Rust. It addresses none of the problems solved by C++. It is not evidently meant for Go, Java, or Swift coders. C coders will not want it, because it is not C.

So, its natural competition is Zig. Which of what Zig attempts does Hare not? Does Hare bring anything to the table that Zig does not?

Your indictment of x86_ArrayVectorMap<Optional<int>> might bite if in fact you could identify so much as a single bug, never mind security hole, caused by reliance on it in preference to a less featureful feature.

There is nothing wrong with putting forward a new thing to address old problems. Go and Java addressed old problems by presenting a weaker language explicitly meant for weaker programmers. C++ and Rust address them by presenting a powerful language meant for serious professionals. There is, manifestly, room for all of them.

In a language promoted in a top-level LWN article, I just want to see some indication that its author has enough understanding of old problems and current solutions not to un-solve what is already solved elsewhere, and maybe try to solve others not solved elsewhere. Thus far I am not seeing that.

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 2, 2022 15:11 UTC (Mon) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link] (4 responses)

Your sensibilities to not define LWN's scope, at least not so far as I'm aware. A "development quote", which are footnotes in the weekly editions, is also far from a "top-level LWN article".

If Hare does not appeal to you, then do not use it. You have a different set of values than Hare, so I cannot pose its benefits in a way that you will understand, since you view many of them as demerits. Hare does not aim to make any other language obsolete, keep using whatever you like and Hare will be enjoyed by those to whom it appeals.

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 4, 2022 10:18 UTC (Wed) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link] (3 responses)

You haven't answered his question, though.

Who is Hare designed to appeal to, and what does Hare bring to the table for them that Zig does not?

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 4, 2022 10:22 UTC (Wed) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link] (2 responses)

Hare is much simpler than Zig, and can do similar tasks. It's has 1/10th the lines of code and both the language and standard library have a more narrowly defined, fixed scope which will not grow in complexity with time. Hare is a more conservative project than Zig and aims to provide a more robust and reliable basis for software built on it for the long-term. A Hare program written on the day of the 1.0 release will still compile and run correctly in 50 years. A Hare *compiler* written on the day of the 1.0 release will still compile new code written 50 years from now.

There are many differences between them, but the core philosophical differences boil down to this.

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 4, 2022 11:36 UTC (Wed) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link] (1 responses)

> Hare is much simpler than Zig, and can do similar tasks

No, it cannot. For example it cannot do async/await.

> A Hare *compiler* written on the day of the 1.0 release will still compile new code written 50 years from now.

Thanks for proving that you aren't learning from past mistakes, I guess.

The illusion of apparent simplicity

Posted May 6, 2022 7:23 UTC (Fri) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link]

I was not referring to a similar set of language features, but a similar set of supported use-cases.