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DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

Posted May 2, 2022 11:33 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
In reply to: DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language by ddevault
Parent article: DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

The majority of problems in real-world C/C++ programs come from issues with memory management. Unless you can explain what you have done to avoid this issue other security features are not all that interesting.

It's like making a car and then deciding that adding wheels to it would be too hard. Such car would still be useful for some things, but it wouldn't be useful for most people.

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DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

Posted May 2, 2022 11:36 UTC (Mon) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link] (4 responses)

I have already explained Hare's security features many times, some of which relate directly to memory management, such as nullable pointer types or bounds-checked slices. Memory issues are much more rare in Hare programs than in C programs.

Part of Hare's goal is to question the orthodoxy pushed by Rust and its proponents and to look for a different solution. No, it's not Rust. No, it's not going to be Rust. That does not rule it out as an interesting language.

DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

Posted May 2, 2022 13:56 UTC (Mon) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (2 responses)

It does, when you demonstrate you have utterly failed to comprehend Rust's, let alone C++'s, value proposition.

It is 2022, not 1972. Bring something new and valuable to the table. Don't waste our time on 1970s retreads.

DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

Posted May 2, 2022 13:58 UTC (Mon) by ddevault (subscriber, #99589) [Link] (1 responses)

Rest assured that I fully understand the value Rust supposes it offers, and C++ also. You have not invented the God language, and you are not His servant. If you aren't interested then Hare, then fine, more power to you, but bugger off while we build the language we want - not the language you want.

*Sigh*

Posted May 2, 2022 14:02 UTC (Mon) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Someday we'll be able to post an item on programming languages without things degrading this way. Evidently not today. Let's all please back off a bit now.

DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

Posted May 2, 2022 23:48 UTC (Mon) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

> Memory issues are much more rare in Hare programs than in C programs.

Do you have evidence this is true in practice? I guess you've fuzzed Hare programs and equivalent C programs and measured the bug rates?

DeVault: Announcing the Hare programming language

Posted May 2, 2022 16:40 UTC (Mon) by wtarreau (subscriber, #51152) [Link]

> The majority of problems in real-world C/C++ programs come from issues with memory management

I disagree with that claim. At least it's not what I'm suffering the most from. They're among the longest ones to debug though. Most problems I'm seeing actually result from undefined behaviors (especially recently when compilers started to abuse them to win the compilers war), and problems with integer type promotion that's a real mess in C, and that started to turn something bening into real bugs with the arrival of size_t everywhere and 64-bit machines while dealing with plenty of APIs written for ints. These ones are often considered to be memory management issues because they result in buffer overflows and so on but they actually are not at all.


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