the default desktop [LWN.net]

the default desktop

Posted Feb 16, 2022 8:53 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950)
In reply to: the default desktop by Wol
Parent article: McGovern: Handing over

> I really don't like how it's pretty much elbowed everything else out.

You could also interpret that GNOME became a default for various distributions as that GNOME did and does something right.

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the default desktop

Posted Feb 16, 2022 10:08 UTC (Wed) by aragilar (subscriber, #122569) [Link] (4 responses)

I wonder how much of that is due to GNOME (and more importantly GTK) being the default in previous releases? For example, Ubuntu has always GNOME as a basis (as far as I know), customised to a greater or lesser extent depending on what's happening in the GNOME ecosystem, but the initial choice of GNOME (and hence the creation of the various DE alternative spins such as Kubuntu, which likely locked in GNOME being the default) happened nearly 20 years ago. Without GNOME being the default then, would it still be the default now (having gone through at least one major change since then)?

the default desktop

Posted Feb 16, 2022 10:56 UTC (Wed) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (1 responses)

Could be a factor. I mostly commented because the initial comment seemed to see the negative in something, instead of assuming usually people mean well. Meaning, instead of saying that others were "elbowed out", figure out a way too see the well intentioned actions behind it.

The "assume people mean well" is something that was once in the simple GNOME CoC. I like referring to it because every time I thought I was crazy to still try the "maybe this person means well" approach it turned out that the person meant well, plus that I was too judgmental, yet again.

the default desktop

Posted Feb 16, 2022 12:35 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Which is why I try to be objective and not allocate blame. These things happen.

But, for example, SuSE was always a bastion for KDE - that was the default. Then they went agnostic and didn't give you a default. And now, I don't know, do they default to Gnome?

The problem is that if the smaller DEs lose mindshare, they then lose devs, and they fade away. Losing all that was good, which maybe cannot be replaced ...

Cheers,
Wol

the default desktop

Posted Feb 16, 2022 12:23 UTC (Wed) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (1 responses)

What about Unity ? It was more than a GNOME customization.

the default desktop

Posted Feb 17, 2022 9:39 UTC (Thu) by aragilar (subscriber, #122569) [Link]

I didn't use Unity, but it wouldn't surprise me that substantial portions of GNOME were still used (GNOME is more than mutter). I believe there are less than 6 working implementations of the all daemons needed for a semi-standard DE, and I suspect that in more cases than we'd like, only 2 (GNOME, KDE, XFCE, LXDE/LXQT and Enlightenment are the only DEs I know of which could support separate implementations, and I wouldn't surprise me that XFCE, LXDE/LXQT and Enlightenment either use GNOME or KDE daemons, or don't implement them).

That latter part (needing to use a single i.e. GNOME implementation), and GNOME's backwards-compatibility breaks, probably create a fair number of unhappy users/developers for GNOME. I still run bits of GNOME (such as nm-applet), even though I'm using a tiling WM (awesomewm).

the default desktop

Posted Feb 19, 2022 8:55 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

> default for various distributions as that GNOME did and does something right.

Or, and this appears to be the reality, the FSF took a big dislike to KDE, the only real big competitor in the space, and while you can't really call it anti-competitive, by picking its chosen winners and losers, the FSF distorted the competition. Plus, wasn't Gnome tied up with FSF in a direct attempt to push KDE out?

Cheers,
Wol

the default desktop

Posted Feb 19, 2022 13:43 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (7 responses)

> Or, and this appears to be the reality, the FSF took a big dislike to KDE, the only real big competitor in the space

FSF’s whole existence is about free software and Qt originally wasn’t. The licensing itself was more of the reason for distributions to exclude KDE in the distant past. There were plenty of other factors including accessibility and usability of GNOME 2 that played a role after.

the default desktop

Posted Feb 19, 2022 14:59 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (6 responses)

Well, it was probably Gnome2 I took a dislike to, because it WASN'T USABLE.

The problem, when people go on about usability, is what they really mean is "does it feel familiar/comfortable". Seeing as my brain seems to be wired differently from the majority, I find their choice of software a nightmare to use ...

Cheers,
Wol

the default desktop

Posted Feb 19, 2022 15:09 UTC (Sat) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (4 responses)

> Well, it was probably Gnome2 I took a dislike to, because it WASN'T USABLE.

No need to shout. I was referring to the usability improvements funded by Sun at that time.

the default desktop

Posted Feb 20, 2022 12:33 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

You miss the point. What is usable to one person, is painful in the extreme to someone else.

I took to WordPerfect like a duck to water - I had a choice of several word processors, and when WP turned up it just elbowed the other two out no contest.

Then the company standardised on Word, and oh was it painful. It still is, but unfortunately everything is now word clones, so the entire space is a personal nightmare.

The problem with "usability" in the word processor space, is it's intended to let managers pretend they are qualified typists. And from all the complaints I hear, Gnome's usability is very similiar ...

When all you can buy is DIY hammers, the professional who knows how to use a nailgun is at a severe disadvantage ...

Cheers,
Wol

the default desktop

Posted Feb 20, 2022 12:48 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

> You miss the point. What is usable to one person, is painful in the extreme to someone else.

I understand that but it is irrelevant to how defaults get picked by distributions. They have to pick a default anyway for various components, so that's going to get driven by several factors (licensing, accessibility, usability etc). If multiple distributions pick a default, it is safe to say those do work for a lot of people regardless of your personal preferences.

the default desktop

Posted Feb 20, 2022 13:20 UTC (Sun) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (1 responses)

Debian doesn't have a fixed default - but it happens that GNOME is at the top of the list in tasksel. Many of the smaller lighter weight desktops eventually end up pulling in some component or other from a larger desktop at some point as you add your favourite program.

It's not a zero sum game: in the long term, no desktop "wins" as there's enough space for several desktops, many use cases.
The caveat is that there aren't enough developers to go round - many attractive desktops in smaller distributions which draw people to them are, in fact, a reskinning of something like Ubuntu as the upstream. My colleagues who say "I'd like to get into Linux but there are hundreds of different Linuxes" miss this point and stay on Windows because it's more consistent for them.

What does make it difficult is when a major vendor has more or less abandoned the workstation because they focus on servers or cloud components. That just means that everyone uses Windows by default in that environment.

the default desktop

Posted Feb 20, 2022 13:39 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

> That just means that everyone uses Windows by default in that environment.

Nope, this hasn't been true for a very long time. There is Chromebook or Macs or virtual desktops and so forth. There are plenty of alternatives for different form factors and use cases even if you discard traditional Linux distros.

the default desktop

Posted Mar 27, 2022 6:59 UTC (Sun) by milesrout (subscriber, #126894) [Link]

Gnome2 was the most normal, easy-to-use desktop environment ever to exist on the Linux desktop for a normal person used to normal floating window managers.

Personally I prefer tiling window managers and use dwm. But for my parents, for normal people? Gnome 2 was great.