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An attic for LibreOffice Online

By Jonathan Corbet
January 27, 2022
In mid-December, Thorsten Behrens, a board member for the Document Foundation (TDF), posted a seemingly simple proposal for an "attic" that would become the home of abandoned projects. No specific projects were named as the first intended residents of the attic, but the proposal clearly related to the LibreOffice Online (LOOL) project. The following discussion made it clear that the unhappiness around LOOL has yet to fade away, and that the Foundation still has some work to do when it comes to defining its relationship with its corporate members.

The Document Foundation is, of course, the entity charged with furthering the development of LibreOffice and related software. LOOL, which allows collaborative editing of documents, has been under development for a decade or so; that work picked up in 2015 when TDF announced that LOOL would be "developed into a state of the art cloud application". Over the years, though, the relationship between TDF and Collabora, the company doing the bulk of the development work for LOOL, began to sour. In mid-2020, the company complained that it could not bring in revenue to support LibreOffice developers when everything was available for free; among other things, Collabora wanted a clearer path toward making money on LOOL. Despite efforts on all sides to find a solution, Collabora stopped working on LOOL later that year, choosing instead to continue to develop that code outside the TDF under its "Collabora Online" brand.

The elephant in the attic

Since then, development on LOOL has come to a halt; without Collabora's contributions, there wasn't much to sustain an ongoing project. That left TDF with a body of abandoned code with no maintenance or credible prospects for future development. Not wanting to emulate Apache OpenOffice, TDF started looking for a solution to this problem; the answer was the attic proposal. Code that TDF cannot support would be "atticized" — moved to a read-only repository — available for anybody who wanted to do something with it, but not a target for ongoing development. The proposal also included a process for "un-atticization" should enough developers demonstrate interest (in the form of patches) in carrying the project forward.

The response to the proposal was swift, but few participants wanted to talk about the attic itself; instead, there was a fair amount of rehashing of the LOOL story and discussion of what should be done with that code now. Not everybody feels that LOOL should be moved into any sort of attic. Marco Marinello, for example, replied that what was really needed was a new set of agreements with TDF's member companies:

I have already said this many times but I want to repeat it: it has to be clear (and hopefully stated by legal contracts) to the companies working in the LibreOffice ecosystem that they cannot wake up one day and bring their development outside the LibreOffice project. They cannot stay with one foot inside the ecosystem, contributing to it, and with the other one bringing their development effort outside.

Just-elected TDF board member (and Collabora employee) Jan Holesovsky answered that a different approach was called for:

From my point of view, rather than legal contracts, a much better strategy is to listen to what the ecosystem companies or other contributors are telling you; work with them, instead of against them; treat them as partners, not as enemies. If you do that, there is no reason for anybody to leave the community, move the code away, or fork.

The fork of LOOL, Holesovsky continued, was the result of a failure to listen to contributors (and Collabora in particular), especially when it came to distributing a binary version of LOOL under the LibreOffice brand. Board member Paolo Vecchi responded with a somewhat different view of the events surrounding LOOL. The proposal to publish binary LOOL builds, he said, was meant to help schools and nonprofits dealing with COVID-related disruptions, which is well within TDF's public-benefit mission. He, too, called for agreements to be made with companies working on TDF projects:

It is totally fine if someone wants to start his/her own projects based on LibreOffice and host them under his/her rules. However, I don't think it is fine to benefit from TDF and the work of its community for years, and then change the rules and walk away.

He later added that, in his opinion, companies making major contributions to TDF projects should be made to agree to a "backporting agreement" for a one-year period; Behrens disagreed, saying that such a requirement would kill any willingness to bring projects into TDF at all.

On January 9, Marinello posted a counterproposal to putting LOOL in an attic. Under this plan, TDF would claim that Collabora Online was really "always LibreOffice Online" and provide daily builds of LibreOffice integrated with the Collabora Online code. Others would be given the right to redistribute these builds under the LOOL name. Unsurprisingly, outgoing board member (and Collabora employee) Michael Meeks disliked this idea, characterizing it as "let's de-fund the developers". Focusing on Collabora Online, he said, has led to "a new and better model for everyone". While it would be a good thing if TDF could drive sales for its members, that "has been repeatedly shown to be structurally impossible for TDF"; he suggested that was not an entirely bad thing. Meanwhile others, including Vecchi and Behrens expressed opposition to redistributing Collabora Online under the TDF umbrella.

Keeping this from happening again

The discussion went on for quite some time, with numerous people trying to place the blame for the "loss" of LOOL according to their view of the events. For all that, though, it was a surprisingly polite conversation, most of the time. The participants seem to feel that, regardless who is to blame for what happened with LOOL, the important thing is to figure out how to keep TDF viable and avoid similar problems in the future.

From the point of view of at least one large commercial member of TDF, the solution is to make sure that member companies don't feel like they are funding an organization that is then sabotaging their business plans. So TDF would need to avoid taking actions that reduce the value of commercial offerings — actions like offering binary versions of LOOL. Otherwise, it looks like TDF is using the members' own donations to compete with them. Industry consortia often need to walk this sort of tightrope, but many TDF members don't seem to think of it as an industry consortium.

The opposing point of view is that member companies should not be able to use TDF's resources and support to build a product, only to remove it from TDF once it can stand alone. Supporters of this viewpoint would like to see additional agreements put in place with member companies to prevent this from happening, especially for projects where a single company dominates the development effort. TDF, to some members, is meant to provide a public benefit rather than services to corporate members, and they are not happy when they feel that this benefit has been compromised.

As it happens, TDF has just elected a new board including many of the participants in this discussion. It would seem that this board should have, at the top of its list of priorities, coming up with a solution to this disagreement that can keep all of the stakeholders, if not happy, at least out of a state of complete disgruntlement. The January 14 board meeting, with both the new and old members, discussed the attic proposal (and punted any action pending further discussion) but did not address the bigger question; the agenda for the January 28 meeting does not mention it at all. TDF is an important institution in our community; its governance needs to come up with a solution to this question.


to post comments

Open source business models

Posted Jan 27, 2022 19:16 UTC (Thu) by fmyhr (subscriber, #14803) [Link] (2 responses)

Straying a bit from the attic proposal per se, to one of the reasons (afaict) it came about: the need to pay real money to full-time developers to maintain and enhance open-source software. By now, don't we have at least a few successful business models for how this can be accomplished?

It seems to me that a model where the source and periodic builds are available for free download for self-supported self-hosted software works reasonably well for projects like Proxmox and Ubuntu. Customers who need official support, customizations, SLAs and/or hosted solutions purchase those from companies who pay the developers.

Collabora, it seems to me, offers very reasonable per-set pricing:
https://www.collaboraoffice.com/subscriptions/

Why they don't offer a hosted service, which would seems a natural for this application, is a mystery. Maybe I missed it?

It seems a shame that TDF and Collabora apparently have trouble avoiding stepping on each others' toes. As an outsider, it is confusing. Why even bother with a LOOL binary when free Collabora Online Development Edition is available?

Open source business models

Posted Jan 28, 2022 10:39 UTC (Fri) by tlamp (subscriber, #108540) [Link]

> It seems to me that a model where the source and periodic builds are available for free download for self-supported self-hosted software works reasonably well for projects like Proxmox and Ubuntu.
> Customers who need official support, customizations, SLAs and/or hosted solutions purchase those from companies who pay the developers.

Yeah, this is the way. A big chunk of production setups will *always* want to have enterprise support ready for a central piece of their infrastructure, those who don't will soon learn that they then either need to spent more from their own maintenance person/cost pool or fail on providing an adequate service. Will quite some people take the free ride? Sure, but a lot of them still will contribute to a healthy community, and can be leveraged for providing a better enterprise experience, iow., that's a feature, not a bug.

If just providing ready-to-use binary builds threatens to fail your business case, your business case isn't worth much and will fail anyway...

Open source business models

Posted Jan 28, 2022 16:11 UTC (Fri) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

They seem to have an ecosystem of partnerships with (often local/regional) companies, some of which offer hosted services (often with integration into other systems like groupware, cloud storage, etc.). I can imagine some SMBs, associations, etc. prefer working with local service providers, for legal & trust reasons, so this makes sense, but it might complicate things if they don’t want to compete directly with those.
Maybe they could make those options more obvious though?

OTOH a worldwide Collabora online service competing with the likes of Google or Microsoft on price & reliability could be hard…

An attic for LibreOffice Online

Posted Feb 3, 2022 8:08 UTC (Thu) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link] (1 responses)

"Code that TDF cannot support would be "atticized"... The proposal also included a process for "un-atticization"...The response to the proposal was swift"

Did the swift response come from linguists crying into their beers, by any chance? :P

An attic for LibreOffice Online

Posted Feb 3, 2022 8:39 UTC (Thu) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

No :P

Oh, it might upset language peevers, but actual linguists generally shrug off these kinds of things because they're interested in describing and analysing language, not prescribing it.

"Crying into your beer" is reserved for things like "well crap. the existence of this language means we have to completely rethink one of our fundamental concepts of language analysis, and someone else managed to get their paper on it out the door first." :)


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