CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 8, 2020 20:45 UTC (Tue) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935)In reply to: CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream by kragil
Parent article: CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
CentOS was acqui-hired because Red Hat's upstream for layered products (at the time mostly RDO and oVirt) could not use Fedora because it was too far from RHEL a year of two after RHEL was released, could not use RHEL because upstream contributors would have to pay, and could not use CentOS because its releases had too large delays. The solution was to make CentOS releases happen timely by paying people to make them.
These days a RHEL downstream is not enough for the layered products. Some of them require the kind of bleeding edge feature that is backported every six months to the RHEL kernel, and corresponding userspace changes (BPF, virtualization, etc.) and cannot afford waiting for the CentOS release because development must be done in parallel with RHEL. So the solution was to move CentOS from happening *after* RHEL to *before* RHEL.
And that's it. It may not be a pleasant change for everyone, but it's a change that has strictly technical motives.
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CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 8, 2020 22:13 UTC (Tue) by Depereo (subscriber, #104565) [Link]
Yes, CentOS was not suitable to meet those needs. It wasn't trying to meet those needs.
That makes this less of a 'technical motive' and more of an accounting one. Red Hat didn't want to commit new resources to servicing their new use-case, so have re-purposed an existing project to deliver an adjusted product that meets their new use-case. The old use-case will no longer be met.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 8, 2020 23:10 UTC (Tue) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]
So if people were using CentOS as a free rebuild of RHEL they're having a bad surprise. If they were using CentOS or RHEL itself to develop applications for RHEL, it will be better for them because they'll be able to contribute bugfixes to CentOS Stream early, or have early access to kernel updates (I'd estimate that 20-30% of the upstream kernel changes are backported for every RHEL minor update). If they were developing their own rebuild of RHEL, it will be better for them. Granted, there's lots of people in the first category; all I'm saying is it isn't about IBM and it isn't about someone wanting to fire someone else to save money.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 6:00 UTC (Wed) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
That is just lying and a dick move PERIOD
Fool me once ...
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 7:35 UTC (Wed) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 21:31 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
It's the same issue as with GPLv3, it seems. If you read even the initial announcement you see the following text there: Red Hat anticipates that taking a role as a catalyst within the CentOS community will enable it to accelerate development of enterprise-grade subscription solutions for customers and partners, such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux, Red Hat Enterprise Linux OpenStack Platform, Red Hat Cloud Infrastructure, Red Hat Enterprise Virtualization, Red Hat JBoss Middleware, OpenShift by Red Hat, and Red Hat Storage.
So it looks like RedHat always considered CentOS as “a development vehicle for RHEL”. Just like FSF always considered GPL as “a tool to ensure software freedom”.
In both cases changes looked perfectly normal and logical when viewed by principal authors. In both cases changes looked like betrayal to large community because they used these for radically different reasons: CentOS as “free clone of RHEL without support” and GPLv2 as “tit-for-tat software development model”. And changes broken both quite radically.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 22:44 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]
RedHat did NOT create CentOS. They may have - from the point of purchase on - considered it as a testbed for RHEL, but that was not how the creator saw it. And by re-purposing it, RH have broken the unspoken contract between *creator* and users.
Cheers,
Wol
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 8:24 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
But creator is now on Rocky Linux, no?
Thus RedHat have only changed what it owns. More like Ethereal/Wireshark thingie than anything else if you ask me.
Unfortunate, but not that rare.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 21, 2020 13:44 UTC (Mon) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 19:57 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]
This doesn't actually address Linux developer needs.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 21:41 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]
Nah. It's not exactly “valueless”. It's actually very common in Enterprise world. That's why Microsoft offers various programs where you get SDKs for future versions of Windows. And why it provides cheap yet limited versions of SQLServer, Exchange and many other Enterprise products.
You make your team use that “preview/development” environment and then, when you know product behaves as it should — you can buy some few licenses for real Enterprise product (often there are some cheap licenses for testing where you need, e.g., to reinstall your OS every 90-180 days… RedHat hints these are coming soon), to test and and ship the result.
RedHat (well… IBM now, I guess), naturally wants to provide the very same model. Where you couldn't use “development version” to actually host your goods in production, but only can use it for development… in conjunction with a few copies of actual “Enterprise OS”, of course.
Perfectly logical move if you only consider CentOS a vehicle for development and don't care at all for people who may use it to host something in production…
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 16:43 UTC (Thu) by mvdwege (guest, #113583) [Link]
These people aren't paying, so why should Red Hat care?
You want an RHEL clone, you can do what the CentOS team used to do: fork it, remove the branding, and maintain it yourself. Or pay someone to do that, or ultimately, just hope that someone does it.
What you can't do, is blame Red Hat for being a perfectly normal business or even demand that Red Hat supports free riders.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 16:50 UTC (Thu) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 17:04 UTC (Thu) by mvdwege (guest, #113583) [Link]
And I posit that Red Hat should not have to care about that particular small audience.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:34 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
They lied (2029) and killed a perfecly good project.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:37 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]
Spoken by someone who has clearly not paid any attention to Oracle's antics for the past decade. If ever.
Or IBM, for that matter.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:47 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
There is absolutely no reason to trust them anymore.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 20:54 UTC (Thu) by LightDot (guest, #73140) [Link]
> These people aren't paying, so why should Red Hat care?Red Hat should care for "these people" as much as it would like "these people" to care about Red Hat.
Consider the CentOS user base, their profile and numbers. CentOS users are largely members of the industry, members of the academia. Some of them are authors and contributors to various projects and software that Red Hat ships. Some of them are researchers, educators, decision makers.
Red Hat made certain promises when it acquired CentOS, both direct and implied. CentOS made certain promises when CentOS 8 was released as a RHEL clone, with a 2029 EOL.
The relationship between Red Hat and the users of CentOS must have seemed fair to both sides in the past, or it wouldn't last this long... and now what, a sudden decree to end CentOS as we know it?
There were other ways to present this, offerings to prepare that weren't prepared, timing that could be better chosen.
CentOS users in general seem to be badly informed about CentOS Stream. They seem to think that they are let down.
I'm not really sure the Red Hat decision makers thought this through. It seems ill planned and poorly executed.
> What you can't do, is blame Red Hat for being a perfectly normal business or even demand that Red Hat supports free riders.
Well, "these people", "free riders", or how ever you wish to insult the CentOS users, are apparently still worthy of being beta testers but not worthy enough to properly explain to them as to why is this a fair deal or why might it even be beneficial to them.
I wonder why the backslash...
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:11 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]
It was the other way around; RHEL users were CentOS's beta testers.
> I wonder why the backslash...
Folks that were providing a great deal of work for free have decided to stop doing that in favor of an approach that meets their internal needs better.
Similarly, Folks that were getting something completely for free won't be getting exactly that any more.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:54 UTC (Thu) by LightDot (guest, #73140) [Link]
>> Well, "these people", "free riders", or how ever you wish to insult the CentOS users, are apparently still worthy of being beta testers>
> It was the other way around; RHEL users were CentOS's beta testers.
>
I was unclear, I suppose... I wasn't trying to suggest that they were beta testers before but rather that they are apparently still good for something.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:31 UTC (Thu) by mvdwege (guest, #113583) [Link]
And the rules have always been the same: you get what you pay for, in money or labour. So you made the choice to make yourself dependent on the CentOS project; it could have folded, leaving you in exactly the same spot.
You want support? You pay for it, either by doing the work yourself, or by paying Red Hat. Nothing has changed except that CentOS is now the upstream for RHEL, and only one point release ahead at that. Instead Red Hat bought it and supports it.
The fact is that Red Hat went out of its way to provide resources to the community; and I see a lot of people complaining that that is still not enough, even though there is no contractual obligation, and by providing what it has done so far, Red Hat has IMO more than fulfilled its moral obligation.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:35 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:43 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]
We're talking about software here. Free Software, both Gratis and Libre.
I think you need to step back and consider your words more carefully.
Badmouthing those that you are *demanding* do work for you, for *free*, is never going to get you what you want. They owe you precisely nothing, legally and morally.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:53 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
Big corps are shitty by design, they will throw you or the planet under the bus if some beancounter thinks it will be worth it. IBM obviously forced CentOS to go this way and abandon their users and they obviously lied (2029).
No badmouthing here.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 22:08 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]
So I take it you've never broken any sort of promise, ever?
> IBM obviously forced CentOS to go this way and abandon their users and they obviously lied (2029).
> No badmouthing here.
You are "obviously" incorrect; this is pretty much a textbook definition of badmouthing.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 22:19 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
But I am not American, where people vote for you when you do nothing but ly all day.
In America you are great business success when you ly and make money at the expense of others. That is the most important thing it seems.
Let's stop here
Posted Dec 10, 2020 22:20 UTC (Thu) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]
I'm thinking this back-and-forth has gone about far enough; can we please stop it here?Thank you.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 21:41 UTC (Thu) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 21:42 UTC (Wed) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link]
CentOS Stream isn't meant to meet all needs. If the thing that's needed is "exactly RHEL", then "exactly RHEL" is always going to be a better solution than CentOS Stream or the CentOS rebuild.
I personally wish the timing here had been such that the other initiatives which are part of this same effort had been announced _first_, because it'd be an easier conversation. But here we are now.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 15:11 UTC (Thu) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 16:06 UTC (Thu) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 16:14 UTC (Thu) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 8, 2020 23:11 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]
I suspect that, for a substantial portion of CentOS users, the new Stream paradigm will represent a significant net improvement.
Red Hat is supposedly going to provide zero-cost access to RHEL to cover some of the old use-cases (ie "CentOS == Free RHEL").
But at the end of the day, someone has to pay the piper.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 5:43 UTC (Wed) by mcon147 (subscriber, #56569) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 12:54 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]
I agree that is usually the case, but in this case it's "register and click download"
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 17:03 UTC (Wed) by mattdm (subscriber, #18) [Link]
It does sound like that. But it's genuinely not.The RHEL business folks really really really do not like anyone to ever say "free RHEL". RHEL is not free; it is very valuable. So, you get weaselly-sounding wording like "no-cost" or "zero-cost". But the thing they're trying to avoid isn't actually the thing you and probably everyone else assumes when they see/hear the corporate-speak. It's a different worry altogether! And although it sounds a little silly to me (like the big deal made over "project vs product" nomenclature), the people to whom it is important have sold billions of dollars of RHEL so I trust that they know what they're talking about.
Anyway, the fact is that none of this is done with the expectation of converting masses of CentOS users into paid RHEL users. I'm pretty sure that seems as unlikely to the business folks as it does to all of the rest of us. The goals really are what the FAQ says they are.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 9, 2020 22:01 UTC (Wed) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 10, 2020 17:08 UTC (Thu) by mcatanzaro (subscriber, #93033) [Link]
In contrast, traditional CentOS was *downstream* of RHEL, entirely different. It seems fair to say that Red Hat is no longer interested in this space anymore.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 12, 2020 16:54 UTC (Sat) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link]
Like ripple effects in water, the repercussions of a loosing a community's trust is that RH cant be trusted in *any* community be it Gnome, be it Fedora, be it some upstream project etc. because people will never know if RH has been sharpening it's knives preparing to going back on it's word and backstab the community it's involved in or responsible for so to speak.
That said what is interesting pattern in this thread is how people are quickly jumping the gun and blaming IBM for Red Hat's own management issues and poor decision making.
CentOS is dead, long live CentOS Stream
Posted Dec 13, 2020 15:49 UTC (Sun) by mcatanzaro (subscriber, #93033) [Link]
True.
> Like ripple effects in water, the repercussions of a loosing a community's trust is that RH cant be trusted in *any* community be it Gnome, be it Fedora, be it some upstream project etc. because people will never know if RH has been sharpening it's knives preparing to going back on it's word and backstab the community it's involved in or responsible for so to speak.
That seems a little extreme. We'll see....