Toward a "modern" Emacs [LWN.net]

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 26, 2020 20:49 UTC (Sat) by Sesse (subscriber, #53779)
In reply to: Toward a "modern" Emacs by mvar
Parent article: Toward a "modern" Emacs

> So why should emacs adapt and change how it works based on some trend that appeared later?

In case it's not obvious: Because the Ctrl-X/C/V bindings are clearly _better_. They can be done with the left hand without moving it while the right hand is using the mouse, which is cumbersome for Ctrl-K/Y.

Of course, due to inertia, not everything is worth changing. And Emacs' problem is not first and foremost about those specific bindings. But it is a symptom.

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Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 2:15 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (4 responses)

Yeah, on a QWERTY keyboard (which is the vast majority, I'll grant that). How is it on other layouts used around the world? As a Vim user, I prefer some mnemonics with things which `y` and `p` go with pretty well. What's the original rationale behind ^K and ^Y (IIRC, it is `kill-line`, but that doesn't sound like a copy at all other than that I know Vim does store the last removed text at the "top" of the paste stack).

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 8:16 UTC (Sun) by Sesse (subscriber, #53779) [Link] (3 responses)

The most common variants I am aware of are QWERTZ (German), where Y and Z have switched places, and AZERTY (French), where A/Q and W/Z are switched. Both touch on Ctrl-Z (undo), but X/C/V are unchanged. I don't honestly know if any of them typically also switch the hotkey for undo around.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 28, 2020 11:40 UTC (Mon) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link] (2 responses)

Well there's Dvorak keyboards.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 7:32 UTC (Tue) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link] (1 responses)

As a Dvorak user, I am perfectly happy with cut/copy/paste not being optimized for my keyboard layout.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Oct 1, 2020 3:21 UTC (Thu) by jasone (subscriber, #2423) [Link]

Same here, but Dvorak layout *would* be an ergonomic problem if my typical workflow involved much reaching for the mouse.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 6:10 UTC (Sun) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (1 responses)

> And Emacs' problem is not first and foremost about those specific bindings.

Indeed, and it's one that seems to expose a fundamental division in both the FSF and the GNU project generally: the people who would like very much to enable the broader world to have the ability to use free software to do the things that matter to them, and the people who are interested in the Cult of Richard.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 27, 2020 6:40 UTC (Sun) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Wait, there are people _not_ part of some cult or another? Neither TV nor Fakebook ever talks about them. This sort of people without loud and simple opinions is too boring to exist anymore.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 14:57 UTC (Tue) by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545) [Link] (2 responses)

From my memory, didn't the ctrl-x ctrl-v actions enter muscle memory through the wordstar editors which started in 1979? Whereas EMACS initial release was in 1976 (with heritage from TECO)? Not so far apart.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 15:59 UTC (Tue) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (1 responses)

No, Ctrl-x was down in WordStar. Cursor movement keys were in a diamond pattern: Ctrl-e/s/d/x for up, down, right and down, respectively.

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Sep 29, 2020 17:53 UTC (Tue) by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545) [Link]

Ah thanks! "IIRC" is so often flawed ;-)

Toward a "modern" Emacs

Posted Oct 13, 2020 17:18 UTC (Tue) by debacle (subscriber, #7114) [Link]

> In case it's not obvious: Because the Ctrl-X/C/V bindings are clearly _better_. They can be done with the left hand without moving it while the right hand is using the mouse, which is cumbersome for Ctrl-K/Y.

Or the other way around: It is cumbersome to use the mouse with Emacs key bindings. I assume, that many Emacs users do not use the mouse much. I don't even have one, only a touchpad, centered in front of the space bar.