In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 17, 2019 21:56 UTC (Tue) by coriordan (guest, #7544)
Parent article: Richard Stallman resigns from the FSF

I've met Richard dozens of times, we've talked by mail, I've read a lot of his writings. I was never a close friend or advisor, but I know him somewhat.

I've seen him around women and I've gotten to know a lot of the women that are in Richard's line of work. And I've heard no complaints.

In MIT he teaches no courses and has no staff. He just has a room for responding to email, where he sleeps on the floor. So, talk of his position of power is strange. In the FSF office, they're among the top in terms of gender balance for software organisations. And there he does have power, and has had for 30+ years. Number of complaints? Zero that I know of.

He's missing the skill of guessing what others are thinking. In dating, this means his option 1 is to not try, due to fear of rejection, and live the rest of his life alone, or option 2, which he chooses, is to be direct and ask. Asking someone for a date always means risking personal pain and risking making the other person uncomfortable - disappointing someone whose made themself vulnerable is never fun.

I remember collecting him from an airport, around 2004, and he asked me if I knew any women that might be interested in him. I laughed it off because it was an unusual question, but then I realised that he's lonely and he knows women aren't going to just throw themselves at him. Time's not on your side when you're 52 (in 2004), constantly travelling, and lacking a social skill. Fifteen years later, his lack of success has proven he was right that finding a sweetheart (his word) was going to be difficult.

His other weakness is his sense of humour, which he loves. He has a page on his website with jokes he's proud of coming up with. The first two are:

How can you sleep under water?
Use a snore-kel.

and

Parent 1: My son became a Little Leaguer to play baseball.
Parent 2: Watch out! When the child is a Little Leaguer,
the parents can become hypereager.

(That said, after years of work, he did manage to put a lot of humour into his speeches and got a lot of laughs from audiences.)

So for him, it's hilarious to have the opposite of a business card. A pleasure card (click, take a look). "Business or pleasure?" a question that hundreds of hotels and airports have asked him over the years, and he found a related joke that he thinks is great.

The mattress in his office is where he sleeps. He lives in his office, when in Boston. Has for years.

So, based on knowing him as well as I do, is he a man of universal charm? No. Is he a gentleman? Yes.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 17, 2019 22:09 UTC (Tue) by Yui (guest, #118557) [Link]

>So for him, it's hilarious to have the opposite of a business card. A pleasure card (click, take a look).
That's just heartwarming.
I've always enjoyed his sense of humor.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 1:35 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (28 responses)

I personally know many women who have complained about his behaviour. You not hearing complaints doesn't mean they don't exist.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 5:26 UTC (Wed) by Yui (guest, #118557) [Link] (2 responses)

>I personally know many women who have complained about his behaviour.
Leaving statements like this vague is a good way to make people assume these complaints are worse than they actually are. Was that the purpose or were you just careless?
A complaint of unspecified kind from an unspecified person that's relayed by a third party should really not be taken seriously at all.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 5:38 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

I responded to an implication that because someone had heard no complaints, there were no complaints. Don't attempt to read any more into it.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 7:41 UTC (Wed) by seyman (subscriber, #1172) [Link]

> Was that the purpose or were you just careless?

I'm in the same position as mjg59 and would, like him, not name names for fear of the women in question being dragged through the mud by RMS apologists.

As an aside, a question like the one you ask above (leaving only the choices of purposefully making a vague statement and being careless) is a loaded one. It's an informally fallacy that presupposes facts and encourages entrapment. LWN deserves better.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 5:53 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (22 responses)

If someone said mjg59 harasses women, I couldn't defend you. I don't know you.

But when people make such accusations about someone that I do know, and when I've seen that person around women loads of times, and when I know loads of women that have worked and socialised with him and they have no problem with him, I have to highlight this.

I can't prove or disprove rumours and third-party stories. But I will say that in my many first-hand interactions and observations of Richard, the man's a gentleman.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 6:19 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (21 responses)

Of course. It would be inappropriate for you to defend me against accusations when you have no knowledge of the details of this accusations, just as it's inappropriate for you to imply that because you're personally unaware of people who had bad experiences with RMS, anyone suggesting otherwise is incorrect.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 7:14 UTC (Wed) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (19 responses)

I know the man and I've always seen him being a gentleman to women.

Your claim that only people with accusations are allowed to speak (since saying nice things is "inappropriate") is nonsense.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 14:37 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (9 responses)

His behavior in the presence of others may be different than his behavior when alone with someone. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

To put it another way, just because Matt Lauer didn't use his remote door lock in *your* presence doesn't mean it was never used.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 18:57 UTC (Wed) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (6 responses)

The allegations were false or the poster just made the allegations up. I have no evidence for this but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 19:31 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

> The allegations were false or the poster just made the allegations up

Did you thinko here? This reads just like "heads I win, tails you lose".

In any case, given gentlemanly behavior in the presence of the GP and allegations of unwanted behavior in the presence of others is not mutually exclusive. Given that these are not coming from just one place and seems to be consistent with someone who doesn't understand the effects his actions have on others (especially those different from him), I'm inclined to believe that such things are plausible given the information I've seen.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 19, 2019 22:32 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (1 responses)

Please quote the full sentence. We're running around in circles, in other people's private lives.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 4:12 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I don't know that you're even reading things anymore, so I'm done on this subthread until that seems to change. As for the quote, all that was missed was the period (accurate selection on phones is a PITA). My question about it related directly to the meaning of the sentence on its own.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 19:37 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (2 responses)

The absence of evidence that I'm lying is, of course, not evidence that I'm not lying. But it's consistent with my not lying, just as a person not seeing RMS engage in inappropriate behaviour is still consistent with RMS engaging in inappropriate behaviour.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 19, 2019 22:36 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

I don't understand that.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 21:38 UTC (Fri) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link]

This is absolutely ridiculous. You need to go outside and interact with human beings.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 12:07 UTC (Tue) by xophos (subscriber, #75267) [Link] (1 responses)

Evidence of absence is an impossible standard.
That's why all sane legal systems have "Innocent until proven guilty (beyond reasonable doubt)".

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 12:34 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Don't you think I'm aware of that? The assertions here that he's "always been a gentleman" is no evidence that the reports of repeated unwanted advances never happened either.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 14:40 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (8 responses)

Men who harass women generally know not to do so in front of other people.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 21:39 UTC (Fri) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link] (1 responses)

Perhaps. But who are you to try to point this out?

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 21:50 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Look, when multiple people say "This person behaved inappropriately towards me" and one person says "During the small number of interactions I have had with this person, I never saw them behave inappropriately", what information does the latter claim give us? Nobody is asserting that Stallman was some sort of relentless harassment machine, utterly incapable of talking to women without hitting on them. The claim is that there was a pattern of behaviour, and that this behaviour actively discouraged some people from being involved in the community that he led (and, in some cases, the entire field of CS). If someone tries to argue against this by saying that they never saw any such behaviour, it's legitimate to point out that that does nothing to disprove the claim.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 12:10 UTC (Tue) by xophos (subscriber, #75267) [Link] (5 responses)

As long as no woman has pressed legal charges against Stallman and prevailed in court, this discussion is moot.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 16:17 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (4 responses)

Why? Community standards and legal standards aren't the same thing.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 19:42 UTC (Tue) by donbarry (guest, #10485) [Link] (3 responses)

Classic argument of witch-hunters, who argue that rumor and gossip should be a sufficient standard to cashier someone based on a personal, political, or professional grudge and strenuously confine free speech to the smallest formal box as it suits their prejudices.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 19:46 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (1 responses)

Treatment of women doesn't need to reach the threshold of criminality to have an impact on someone's suitability for a job. We're talking about a situation where multiple people have described their personal experiences, not "rumor and gossip".

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 22:27 UTC (Tue) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

His reign of terror is over now, so I expected women to take over.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 24, 2019 20:16 UTC (Tue) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]

It is unclear to me whether your contention is that the numerous independent attestations of Stallman's harassment of women are by liars - something of a defamatory claim by you - or whether you simply don't care that your hero is a creep who has made the environment at MIT and the FSF unbearable for many women.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 21:36 UTC (Fri) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link]

Why do your presume that anyone wants to listen to your vague and hearsay accusations? Does this make you a gentlemen? No, it makes you a "nice guy".

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 21:33 UTC (Fri) by scientes (guest, #83068) [Link] (1 responses)

Please take the hearsay elsewhere. Seeing this note makes me feel that none of your allegations (and you make plenty of them) are credible, and that you get into too many political discussions without tact.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 20, 2019 21:45 UTC (Fri) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Given the number of people who've brought up stories of inappropriate behaviour they experienced going back to at least the 90s, why would I bother lying here?

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 7:05 UTC (Wed) by colo (guest, #45564) [Link] (1 responses)

Thank you for posting this. I feel the same way about him, and his life's somewhat sad story. It makes me sick to my stomach how a "community" of supposedly welcoming people makes fun of him in response to his resignations, how they ridicule his habits, his quirks, and his shortcomings on platforms like Twitter these past hours and days. These people are the very definition of mean bullies, and I detest their behaviour.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 10:30 UTC (Wed) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

Somewhat ironically people who are acting as advocates for diversity and inclusion seem to be pretty awful when it comes to bullying and harassing people they have differences of opinion with. It's a pattern I've seen a lot. I think being able to respectfully disagree on things is important to the health of a community too and I believe this is getting lost more and more. It is all becoming a zero-sum game, a disturbing pattern I also see in politics.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 10:25 UTC (Wed) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (2 responses)

Great comment, and somewhat sad.

> Asking someone for a date always means risking personal pain and risking making the other person uncomfortable - disappointing someone whose made themself vulnerable is never fun.

I do think some people take some glee from then humiliating that person further. I certainly read some tweets to that effect. Where's the empathy?

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 21:31 UTC (Wed) by einar (guest, #98134) [Link] (1 responses)

> I do think some people take some glee from then humiliating that person further. I certainly read some tweets to that effect. Where's the empathy?

He's on the "wrong side", so probably those people think he deserves no empathy. They forget that like this, they might be on the "wrong side" too, one day.

"Perhaps I am beginning to, for it suddenly seems to me that the destruction of what should not be, that is, the destruction of what you people call evil, is less just and desirable than the conversion of this evil into what you call good." (Daneel R. Olivaw in "The Caves of Steel" by I.Asimov)

Some people forget this lesson.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 19, 2019 23:08 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 13:25 UTC (Wed) by bosyber (guest, #84963) [Link] (1 responses)

The fact that he is (has been?) an invited speaker at many events at least gives him some power there, I would say, certainly to people who come to conferences to talk about open source, and/or Free Software, which without him would not have existed as it does now. Having a room and position at MIT, also gives him standing and power. It seems reasonable to think that he has some amount of clout with the other faculty.

And as sorry as I might feel for someone feeling lonely, and misunderstood. When that leads to persistent behaviour others find problematic, and when that has been made clear to him, many times over the years (no, I do not personally know him, but others have, and have spoken/written about that), including that perhaps for others his humor isn't seen, felt, or read in the same way (sure, can happen), at what point might we expect them to note that, and do something about it?

Any resourceful, intelligent person might in such a case, and especially if he has a wide group of people he knows from many walks of live, consider changing the way they express themselves. It's not like he couldn't find counselling and help in that, if he wanted.

For an example of how that might go [though that was it seems more about language, and a bit less about moral stance, I think, which might make it an easier counselling job?], look at Linus Torvalds, who decided that his way of expressing himself needed to change - so far he seems to still be effective, but as far as I can see, now with a less acerbic tone.

That you favor free speech and discussion does still not mean that a lack of (expressed) empathy is a good thing. If you don't feel it or don't know how to express it, well, there's merit to learning to behave like you do. Sure, that could go for some of the comments vehemently vilifying him too, but, it still doesn't make his behaviour better either. Painting him as mostly harmless (or a sad case), doesn't really seem a great way to make yourself, or him, appear in a good light.

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 14:24 UTC (Wed) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link]

> And as sorry as I might feel for someone feeling lonely, and misunderstood. When that leads to persistent behaviour others find problematic, and when that has been made clear to him, many times over the years (no, I do not personally know him, but others have, and have spoken/written about that), including that perhaps for others his humor isn't seen, felt, or read in the same way (sure, can happen), at what point might we expect them to note that, and do something about it?

It almost makes it sounds like you think the behaviours are deliberate? Like he is consciously engaging in behaviours that others find problematic? To what end? Just to flaunt his great power?

In defence of Richard Stallman

Posted Sep 18, 2019 19:54 UTC (Wed) by azumanga (subscriber, #90158) [Link]

Honestly, if you haven't heard any complaints, you haven't spent much time around women who have met RMS, both at MIT and at conferences.

You could decide you don't trust them, but any reasonable search will find dozens of complaints going back years. I know at least four of these complainers and have no reason to doubt their stories.