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The Debian project leader election

By Jake Edge
March 27, 2019

While a few weeks back it looked like there might be a complete lack of Debian project leader (DPL) candidates, that situation has changed. After a one-week delay, five Debian developers have nominated themselves. We are now about halfway through the campaign phase; platforms have been posted and questions have been asked and answered. It seems a good time to have a look at the candidates and their positions.

The five candidates are Joerg Jaspert, Jonathan Carter, Sam Hartman, Martin Michlmayr, and Simon Richter. Platforms for four of the candidates can be found here along with their rebuttals to the other platforms. Simon Richter has not provided a platform or participated in the debian-vote mailing list since his nomination mail on March 17. It is not clear what that means and there was no response to an email query about his plans. The other four candidates provided detailed platforms that outlined their experience in the Debian project and their vision for its future.

Joerg Jaspert

Jaspert has been involved with the project since 2002 and has been a member of the FTP Masters team and Debian Account Managers (DAM) team for over a decade. He has lots of other roles in the project as well. He would like to see the project engage with those who are choosing other distributions as well as those who are choosing Debian derivatives. The intent would be to "see if we can enhance Debian to provide the features, while balancing it with our current users".

He sees the role of the DPL as one of enabling others in the project to get their work done; that work specifically includes more than just development and packaging:

Debian does not only consist of packaging and similar technical activities, we have a lot of other contributions that are equally important. We need to encourage more people who aren't well versed in the technical work to contribute in various non-technical ways. That can range from writing documentation, translations, help with the website, design work, help users with their problems or representing Debian at events. Or organizing such events, like Bug Squashing Parties or local "miniconf" gatherings. All of that is as important as the packagers work.

Jonathan Carter

Carter has been in and around Debian since the early 2000s, with a detour into Ubuntu for a while. He got back involved with Debian by way of DebConf, eventually helping to organize one in his native Cape Town, South Africa in 2016. He became a Debian developer in 2017 and is part of the DebConf committee. "I now actively maintain over 60 packages and have recently joined the debian-live project to help improve the quality of our live images."

His platform is lengthy, with a lot of detailed bullet points on his goals and eight separate steps he would like to take to make those goals a reality. For example:

Implement a 100 papercuts campaign: Create a project to identify the 100 most annoying small problems with Debian. These would typically be items that can be solved with a day's worth of work. This could be a technical bug or a problem in the Debian project itself. The aim would be to fix these 100 bugs by the time Buster (Debian 10) is released. A new cycle can also be started as part of an iterative process that's based on time and/or remaining bug count.

Sam Hartman

Hartman has been part of Debian since 2000. He initially started by packaging Kerberos, but soon ran into problems because of the US export restrictions. He helped navigate the legal problems with the cryptographic packages, which eventually allowed that code to move into the main Debian repository.

His focus seems to be on smoothing things out within the Debian community through mediating disputes and trying to help the project make decisions on contentious topics. Overall, the goal is to keep Debian fun:

Lucas Nussbaum wrote an excellent summary of the DPL responsibilities. Of these, I think the most important is keeping Debian fun. We want people to enjoy contributing to Debian so that they prioritize it in their busy schedules. We want to make it easy for people to do work: processes and interactions should be streamlined. When people have concerns or things don't work out, we want to listen to them and consider what they want to say. We want Debian to be welcoming of new contributors.

Martin Michlmayr

Michlmayr has been involved with Debian since 2000 and served as DPL from 2003 to 2005. He started his platform by confessing that he had considered retiring from Debian over the last few years because the project "just doesn't seem all that exciting anymore". But the project and community are too important to him to let go. He suspects that he is not alone in feeling that way and he would like to find ways to change that.

He pointed to a blog post by Michael Stapelberg that highlights some of the problems that Michlmayr also sees in the Debian project.

The open source world has fundamentally changed in the last 5-10 years in many ways. Yet, if you look at Debian, we mostly operate the same way we did 20 years ago. Debian used to be a pioneer, a true leader. Package managers, automatic upgrades, and packages builds on 10+ architectures — they were all novel, true innovations at the time. The only significant innovation I can think of that came out of Debian in recent years are reproducible builds. Reproducible builds solve an important problem and the idea has spread beyond Debian to the whole FOSS world.

I hate when large companies talk about being "nimble" or similar business buzz words. But looking at Debian, I finally understand what they mean — the project has evolved in a way that makes change difficult. We have failed to [adapt] to the new environment we find ourselves in and we're struggling to keep up with an ever-faster changing world.

Questions and answers

The above is meant to simply give a bit of a taste of the ideas that the candidates are running on; those who will be voting or are otherwise interested will find them worth reading in full. Around the time the platforms were first posted, the usual Q&A got started in the debian-vote mailing list. One of the first was about Stapelberg's blog post; Andreas Tille asked a two-part question based on it. The first regarded the legendary leeway that Debian package maintainers have over their packages, while the second asked about the future of collaborative packaging efforts like the Salsa project.

Jaspert's positive response to the second part spawned a sizable sub-thread discussing ways to make packaging more collaborative and, crucially, to have a more standardized packaging methodology for Debian. The other candidates were also in favor of at least discussing it (Hartman), documenting the existing workflows (Carter), and recommending that packagers use Salsa, or perhaps even "go further than that" (Michlmayr).

Most seemed in favor of moving away from the "wild west" of packaging, where maintainers can do whatever they like so long as it follows the policy manual. It is not clear how far anyone would want to take that (and, on their own, a DPL can't really effect that kind of change). Of the four, only Carter expressed reservations about the blog post, as he found it to lack solid arguments for reasons to step away from the project.

In his platform, Michlmayr called for more effort toward funding Debian projects, possibly even using some of the project's funds. Hartman asked his fellow candidate about that, and a recent statement "about potentially turning the DPL into a paid position, acknowledging that would be controversial". Hartman noted that agreed that lack of funding was holding Debian back to some extent but he worried about a repeat of the controversial Dunc-Tank experiment.

It seems like having the Debian Project and DPL working to get more paid developers might run into some of the same issues. In particular there might be a perception that there would be two classes of developers and that volunteers would be frustrated/disappointed they were not getting paid.

Michlmayr acknowledged the problems that Hartman describes, but thinks things may have changed since 2006 when the Dunc-Tank experiment was run. Debian needs to at least consider the possibility of funding projects and developers. That is not the only way to fund more Debian developers, of course, and Michlmayr would like to involve more companies so that there are lots of opportunities for Debian developers to be paid for what they do. He is also concerned that the Dunc-Tank example perpetuates the avoidance of considering paying for staff:

BTW, Debian is already paying Outreachy students to work on Debian. The only controversy here is around diversity, not about paying people. Debian could offer more grants from Debian money to test the waters to find out what people are comfortable with.

Finally, I see one risk: we keep repeating that something is controversial even though we're not sure it's *still* controversial. By repeating this myth, we're keeping it alive. The world has changed. Debian has to finds ways to adapt.

There are, of course, other questions being asked and answered. For example, the platforms of Hartman and Michlmayr have enough parallels and agreement that two separate questions have been posed about the two potentially teaming up. Other questions concern whether Debian should truly aim to be the "universal operating system", if free software and/or Debian are inherently political, and the communication platforms used by the project. Undoubtedly, more will be posted over the next week and a half or so.

In the end, the candidates clearly have the best interests of the project in mind, though they may have different approaches. Jaspert seems like the most "stay the course" candidate, perhaps, while Michlmayr is probably the candidate most interested in rocking the boat—or at least considering rocking it. The DPL's power is extremely limited, so any real changes will require convincing a substantial portion of the members—starting with convincing them to vote in your favor for the DPL position. The voting period runs from April 7–20. It will be interesting to see who wins, but even more interesting to see what happens after that.



to post comments

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 9:29 UTC (Thu) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (1 responses)

I like the "keep Debian fun" platform. I think this often goes underrated but is a crucial element to having people continue to contribute.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 10:09 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

Seconded. Debian's most important resource is it's people. Keeping them engaged and having fun is critical for long-term survival.

Regarding being open to newcomers, it should be obvious that nothing is more attractive than the perspective of doing something fun, challeging and that makes a difference. Debian can be (needs to be) all these things.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 13:26 UTC (Thu) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link]

Dunc Tank was 13 years ago. 13 years!! Seems like yesterday. And apparently many other people also remember it very well. But AFAIR it was basically one person raising hell over this, and other people folowing, not a spontaneous general uprising. But I *may* be remembering it wrong. It was freakin' 13 years ago, after all. I agree that it's about time to reasses things.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 14:59 UTC (Thu) by fnux (guest, #130114) [Link] (19 responses)

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 15:04 UTC (Thu) by mgedmin (subscriber, #34497) [Link] (7 responses)

As you can see in the linked thread Daniel is not currently a DD and as such is not eligible for the position of DPL.

(Also, what definition of "censorship" applies to a mailing list post that is publicly available on the web? On second thought don't answer that, I don't want to know.)

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 15:51 UTC (Thu) by fnux (guest, #130114) [Link] (6 responses)

Let me rephrase: from what I understand on Daniel's article, discussions following its post have been censored by admins even if there was some support for it from other members of the project (which doesn't feel right).

My initial comment was a bit rude, sorry about that.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 21:29 UTC (Thu) by MTecknology (guest, #57596) [Link] (5 responses)

His claim of censorship is because his blog was removed from Debian Planet (only spam gets removed from the mailing lists). The post he's referring to seems to exist solely to stir up more trouble on an already hot topic. In order to stir up that trouble, his post makes a lot of accusations that are outright false, such as claiming there was no previous contact with Norbert or that the "mistake" was a one-time occurrence.

His claim that he wasn't considered a "serious candidate" is also interesting because, as mgedmin mentioned, he's not DD and not eligible for DPL. Additionally, he's making an assumption that Lamby's statement was directed toward him—a statement that I believe was clearly directed toward DDs.

A majority of his recent posts center around berating the entire Debian community, using lies and partial facts in order to reinforce his rants. This all carried over rather cleanly to his proposed platform, which just sounds like another long-winded rant. The only points of his with any value are issues that are already being discussed (DPL Team, DAM Review/Oversight, etc.).

One of his rant-points [1] is particularly interesting because his proposed platform and recent blog posts are exactly the sort of "condescending, degrading and generally abusive communications" that he's referring to.

The rest of the candidates that popped up all seem like quality people that would work in the spirit of Debian to keep pushing the project forward. I'm excited to see the election results.

[1] "No more bastardization of volunteers with demotions and other condescending, degrading and generally abusive communications"

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 21:37 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

"Demotions" is interesting. Is this someone who *was* a DD, but who flounced out in a huff or was even asked to stop for being too disruptive? If so, that sounds *exactly* like the sort of person we don't want as GPL.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 21:37 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Or even DPL. Argh. Bloody finger macros.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 30, 2019 0:01 UTC (Sat) by MTecknology (guest, #57596) [Link] (1 responses)

The whole thing is a mentos/cola-filled can-o-worms, but I'll try to explain it from a no-drama/technical level without sharing too much...

The short version- Norbert (DD) was called out multiple times for violating CoC. After ignoring/arguing with AH enough times, AH recommended their "demotion" by DAM, who agreed and followed-through. Falsified documents were presented to claim AH/DAM acted maliciously, claims were made of no contact/due-process, and lots of drama and accusations began. After a period of time, Norbert issued a formal apology and DD status was restored (in time for elections).

There's obviously a whole lot more to it than this, but it devolves into he-said/she-said, drama, and other crap very quickly. If you search "Norbert Preining" on your favorite search engine, you should be able to find all you can handle in the first page or two of results.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Apr 1, 2019 15:46 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Falsified documents were presented to claim AH/DAM acted maliciously
Hm. Whoever presented those (if it wasn't an anonymous troll) should probably get marked as someone who should never be allowed near a DD position. Do we want code (possibly running as root) on our systems written by people willing to resort to forgery to get that position? I know I wouldn't. (Note: I do not suggest that Norbert was at fault here: it sounds like the sort of thing a troll grepping for CoC flames to fan would do, and my googlejuice is failing me and frankly the search hits are too effing depressing to look through too much, you're quite right there.)

The Debian project leader election

Posted Apr 7, 2019 15:57 UTC (Sun) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link]

Sorry, but could you please explain why you ascribe your comments about Daniel Pocok's DPL rants to Norbert Preining?

AFAIK, the latter didn't run for DPL, did he?

And, btw, as you recommended to nix in another post, I searched through the first two pages of Google search results. No corresponding hits.

Best,
Joachim

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 8:09 UTC (Fri) by nilsmeyer (guest, #122604) [Link] (3 responses)

That is pretty bizarre, thanks for linking... As someone who isn't a native English speaker, what exactly does he mean by bastardization?

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 9:35 UTC (Fri) by smcv (subscriber, #53363) [Link] (1 responses)

> As someone who isn't a native English speaker, what exactly does he mean by bastardization?

As someone who is a native English speaker: I'm not sure.

I would normally expect the word "bastardization" to be used about inanimate objects or abstract concepts, not about people, meaning replacing them with a crude or low quality form of the same thing. For instance (to stay somewhat on-topic) if a software vendor uses dpkg-deb to put their binaries in a .deb file without going via a source package or filling in the metadata correctly, we might call that a bastardized form of Debian packaging.

He might have meant something like denigration, disparagement or vilification?

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 15:02 UTC (Fri) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

He probably intended to say that they were "treated like unacknowledged, illegitimate offspring". I'm not sure the word ever actually *meant* that, though; even the concept it's based on is rather archaic. Whether or not one's parents were formally married just doesn't carry the same weight that it used to.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 30, 2019 2:27 UTC (Sat) by mbg (subscriber, #4940) [Link]

In Australian English, "bastardisation" can also mean harrassment or humiliation, akin to hazing.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 20:40 UTC (Fri) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] (5 responses)

I don't know the fellow, or anything about him. Judging purely by the linked platform message, a lot of it seems to be referring to past grievances, disagreements, and bad blood. I have no way of judging the legitimacy of those issues, since I am not a part of the Debian development community, so I am not going to try.

I will say, a platform for a leadership position should not be based on past grievances and disagreements, especially if the nature of those issues is not precisely spelled out. The linked message does not, for the most part, describe those issues in any detail. In a way, this is good, since many of them sound, based on the vague descriptions, like personal issues. But again, personal issues and bad blood do not a platform make.

That, and his subsequent cries of censorship, incline me to believe the Debian community is acting correctly by not considering him a serious candidate.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 20:50 UTC (Fri) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link] (4 responses)

The only correct way to treat a candidate is to allow all eligible voters to vote.

But the long-suffering DDs might have chosen a leader who was not a member of the current cabal.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 21:44 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (3 responses)

> The only correct way to treat a candidate is to allow all eligible voters to vote.

Well, that assumes that there is a valid candidate. AFAICT, he isn't a valid candidate because he doesn't meet the prerequisites (being a Debian Developer). No different than not allowing a 20-something on the US Presidential ballot (one needs to be 35 to be eligible). The Debian constitution would need amending to allow non-DD candidates first.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 22:01 UTC (Fri) by mgb (guest, #3226) [Link] (2 responses)

The Debian Constitution is readily available online. There is no requirement that the DPL be a DD, just as there is no requirement that the Speaker of the US House be a congressperson.

For example the DDs could if they chose elect a DPL who was not a Debian Developer but had the management skills they wanted.

Or a DPL who espoused policies that the cabal opposes.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 22:31 UTC (Fri) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

The only class of persons granted power by the Debian Constitution to nominate candidates for Debian Project Leader is the Debian Developers, and the only person the Debian Constitution grants power for any individual Debian Developer to nominate as a candidate DPL is themselves.

Given the diverse range of opinions often exhibited on other subjects by Debian Developers, I feel quite confident that were there to be any significant number of Debian Developers who felt that your interpretation was the most appropriate, a draft General Resolution to that effect would have been proposed, and most likely sponsored, by now.

I see no evidence that any Debian Developer has proposed, let alone sponsored, a draft General Resolution suggesting that your interpretation of the Debian Constitution regarding who is eligible to make nominations for DPL and who they are allowed to nominate should be preferred.

On this basis, it seems to me that your position on this subject may safely be dismissed by third parties as invalid.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 30, 2019 16:18 UTC (Sat) by cyphar (subscriber, #110703) [Link]

To quote the Debian Constitution (5.2.3) -- emphasis added:

> For the first week any *Developer* may *nominate themselves* as a candidate Project Leader, and summarize their plans for their term.

Because all candidate DPLs must have been self-nominated, and only DDs can self-nominate, then only a DD can be DPL -- there is no provision for a DD to nominate someone other than themselves. If the wording was different, then you would be right -- but it isn't different.

And so this is not at all like the Speaker of the US House of Representatives, because the US Constitution says:

> The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers

Which has no language about how nomination or selection works, or whether only self-nomination is allowed -- all of which are explicitly described in the Debian Constitution. While the bit about the US Constitution is interesting, it's irrelevant given that the text is clearly different and the two constitutions are completely unrelated documents (other than both being some kind of constitution).

The Debian project leader election

Posted Apr 1, 2019 13:40 UTC (Mon) by cmdr-pavel (guest, #131211) [Link]

Throwing accusations left and right is not a good fit for DPL. This person has been removed from several different projects lately. Either there is a massive conspiracy to bully him in Open Source as he claims or he is in fact the part that behaves in a toxic way.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 17:03 UTC (Thu) by Kamilion (guest, #42576) [Link] (3 responses)

To be honest; I've been with Lubuntu for quite a while now; but the release maintainers have changed over the years, and the new kid doesn't seem to feel like bothering with keeping up with alphas, betas, maintaining LXDE after getting LXQT in the repos, or bothering with the polished release notes I used to expect.

The crowd of older folks using older hardware's being pushed away with the dropping of 32bit support, SSE2 in glibc forcing distros hands to some degree, and generally making maintenance difficult.

Tried debian buster on a whim with the alpha 5 media a few weeks ago. I can definitely see the need for that 100 papercuts approach -- it worked in ubuntu a decade ago; but I haven't seen it referenced in maybe six years now.

There's other downstream distros that rely directly on debian too, like armbian and raspbian.

Plus, with salsa coming into the mix, my major complaint about debian (lack of PPAs / visible public build infrastructure with signing / forcing everything through the repo signature path) has mostly evaporated.

Many of the biggest annoyances stopping many people from 'coming home' to debian look to be evaporating in the face of the Buster release.

Maybe wayland/weston/libinput will even be stabilized...?

Perhaps I might even... be able to play... games...??!

And with google's Stadia announcement at GDC; along with Valve's wine/dxvk push, have resulted in Unity3D having this to say:
"Stadia will use Vulkan, so for developers that have written (or will write) custom rendering plugins and shaders that target Vulkan, please keep this in mind.

Stadia will also use a Linux-based operating system, meaning any native plugins must be compatible with Stadia’s OS. For Unity development, you’ll be able to use the editor on the Windows PC you’re using today – simply target Stadia as the platform to build.

Finally, Stadia will be an IL2CPP platform, so runtime game code must be compatible with IL2CPP in order to work on Stadia."

I think maybe it's time to head back to debian, wrench in hand. The future looks bright with LLVM8/9 and clangbuiltlinux. SIPR-V, ROCm, P2PDMA, AMDKFD, and other useful concoctions seem to be getting traction too, which will drive Vulkan ever further.

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 28, 2019 17:32 UTC (Thu) by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784) [Link]

> Perhaps I might even... be able to play... games...??!

Er, yes. I've been using Debian as my only desktop operating system for... uh, several years now, and I certainly play games (both Free and proprietary) on it.

(You get the occasional bolshy developer who ignores your bug reports if you aren't running the blessed version of Ubuntu, of course.)

The Debian project leader election

Posted Mar 29, 2019 3:01 UTC (Fri) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

I note that Stadia is based on Debian:

https://www.stadia.dev/about/#software-stack__details

The Debian project leader election

Posted Apr 9, 2019 20:55 UTC (Tue) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

>The crowd of older folks using older hardware's being pushed away with the dropping of 32bit support, SSE2 in glibc forcing distros hands to some degree, and generally making maintenance difficult.

A hard SSE2 requirement in glibc would be the fault of whoever built it. The library can still work fine on CPUs as low as i586 (Geode and similar) — I don't think there are any plans to break Linux userspace on a whole line of fairly popular coreboot-supporting routers.

And if that day actually comes, musl is in pretty good shape already…


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