|
|
Log in / Subscribe / Register

Debian debates software for proprietary services

By Jonathan Corbet
August 15, 2017
Distributions like Debian have a clear policy on the software they ship; as a general rule, only free software can be considered for inclusion. How that policy should be applied to software that interacts with proprietary systems is not entirely clear, though. A recent discussion on a package that interfaces with a proprietary network service seems unlikely to lead to any changes in policy, but it does highlight a fault line within the Debian community.

Back in February, Jonas Smedegaard filed a bug against the "certspotter" package, complaining that the package's description advertises the proprietary SSLMate service. On August 4, the maintainer of that package, Faidon Liambotis, got around to answering the bug, saying that the description is helpful for users searching for the package and will not be removed. At that point, Smedegaard took the discussion to the debian-project mailing list in an attempt to rally the Debian developer community against the offending package description.

The ensuing discussion, though, quickly got away from the question of the description and into the area of whether Debian should host software that interfaces with proprietary services in its "main" repository, or whether such software should be relegated to "contrib" instead. The answer to this question carries some consequences. If a package moves to contrib, any package that depends on it (or even recommends it) must also move to contrib. The contrib repository is not enabled by default in a new Debian installation, and packages in contrib do not normally get security updates. So a move to contrib signals a clear second-class-citizen status that would almost certainly result in a significant reduction in the number of users who even know that the package exists, much less use it.

We are talking about Debian here, so one can expect to find a written policy addressing the issue. In this case, though, the policy manual is mostly silent, with one exception. Section 2.2, which describes the repository areas, says: "None of the packages in the main archive area require software outside of that area to function". Some Debian developers interpret this sentence as saying that the packages in main cannot link to proprietary software; others say that use of a proprietary web service is enough to disqualify a package from main.

If the latter view holds, there are quite a few ongoing policy violations in need of attention. The classic example, raised by a number of participants in the discussion, is the venerable ICQ messaging service. This service is proprietary, but a number of ICQ clients exist in the Debian main repository. In this case, the fact that the client itself is free software has generally been deemed good enough for inclusion in main.

If that is no longer the case, then a number of other packages need review as well. Vincent Bernat raised s3cmd, a tool for managing Amazon S3 services. But perhaps s3cmd is different because there are now a couple of free tools that emulate the S3 API. Another one, also pointed out by Bernat, is rclone, which specializes in synchronizing files between local systems and cloud-storage services, which are generally commercial. This tool is not just useful for ongoing use of those services; it can also be used as a means for escape from a cloud service — which is generally considered beneficial.

On August 9, Smedegaard carried the discussion to the debian-devel list, in the apparent hope of finding more support there. The result was perhaps less than he had hoped for. There were some developers, such as Bas Wijnen, who argued for expelling all such software from main:

I believe Debian's philosophy should be that software running remotely on behalf of the user should be considered part of the system and thus free programs interacting with such software should be in contrib if the remote software is non-free (and there is no free alternative).

Others disagreed, making the point that, if one looks closely enough, there is little software indeed that doesn't require proprietary software — in the CPU's microcode if not elsewhere — to function. Russ Allbery argued strongly against pushing out such software, saying: "I believe this would be hugely counter-productive for free software. It would hurt us way more than it would hurt proprietary services". He added that "writing a library specifically to interact with a non-free service is *good software engineering*" and that such libraries should be allowed in Debian. After that, the discussion slowed considerably.

Once again, this is Debian, so the possibility of this disagreement snowballing into a huge general-resolution fight is real. But a reading of the discussion does not appear to reveal an appetite for that kind of battle. A more likely outcome is that the issue will slowly fade from view with no significant changes to existing practice. But, this being Debian, one can probably predict with reasonable certainty that the topic will return to the lists in the not-too-distant future.


to post comments

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 15, 2017 15:54 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (14 responses)

> I believe Debian's philosophy should be that software running remotely on behalf of the user should be considered part of the system and thus free programs interacting with such software should be in contrib if the remote software is non-free (and there is no free alternative).

Carried to it's logical conclusion, all network support should be removed because switches run proprietary code to handle your packets. Not to mention that even without the extreme, things like browsers are obviously bad and even curl is suspect.

Personally, I find more FOSS is better than less and that making it a larger gap for those looking to move from non-FOSS (i.e., not only do you have to change your apps locally, but your services have to move at the same time) isn't beneficial.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 15, 2017 15:57 UTC (Tue) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (5 responses)

Indeed, it's a bizarre stance - Samba would never have been included in Debian because its purpose was to implement the proprietary SMB protocol and its successors. (Nowadays you could have a Samba-based client talking to a Samba-based server, but back in the early days when only Windows or possibly OS/2 and Netware systems implemented it, Samba's purpose was unquestionably to communicate with a proprietary network service.)

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 15, 2017 18:29 UTC (Tue) by javispedro (guest, #83660) [Link] (3 responses)

Samba is the _server_ part and has been so since day 1. I don't believe the analogy is valid.

And besides, there's something worse than a proprietary network protocol, and that is a proprietary network protocol for a proprietary network service of which there will never be more than one instance.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 15, 2017 20:28 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

For a long time, Samba could join an ActiveDirectory domain but not host it.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 15, 2017 23:34 UTC (Tue) by davecb (subscriber, #1574) [Link]

smbclient was and is the unix command-line client for the Windows servers. I used it heavily and wrote about it in Using Samba (1st ed)

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 21, 2017 14:00 UTC (Mon) by ianmcc (guest, #88379) [Link]

No, samba can run as a server but personally Ive never used it that way, the main way it is used (for me, at least) is to connect Linux desktops to windows servers. I think this is an admirable use for free software. In the ideal world everything will be free. We want to move towards that, and showing that there is no advantage to proprietary is a good start.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 24, 2017 13:00 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> but back in the early days when only Windows or possibly OS/2 and Netware systems

Actually, I believe Samba predates Windows, and quite possibly Netware too.

Samba was written to connect to DEC, iirc, and then they realised MS was using the same protocol.

Cheers,
Wol

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 15, 2017 23:06 UTC (Tue) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (7 responses)

You could make a distinction between software that can interact with both free and non-free software on a level playing field (e.g. browsers) and software that cannot function at all without being tied to a proprietary service.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 16, 2017 3:33 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah, I agree. But there is the question of where the line gets drawn. Is Pidgin fine except for the Oscar protocol plugins? Does all it take to get around it is to offer a hostname option, defaulting to the existing service in case someone eventually writes a replacement? Should bugwarrior be in Debian except for its GitHub and Bitbucket support? How about Google calendar support in any of the relevant applications?

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 16, 2017 4:18 UTC (Wed) by smckay (guest, #103253) [Link] (1 responses)

Google Calendar is CalDAV, so supporting it just means that users don't have to find the connection info themselves. Anything that can talk to Google Calendar ought to handle any other CalDAV server fine.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 16:56 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Yeah, it has a CalDAV bit, but I thought there were other things that went beyond CalDAV too.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 16, 2017 5:10 UTC (Wed) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

It'll be interesting to see how far they go in applying this rule to browsers.

One popular web browser entices its users to sign up for a completely proprietary sync feature. Another's sync feature is for all intents and purposes identical, and can only be described as "Lawful Evil" with regard to openness; one has to wonder if it was crafted deliberately to spite some FIPS-like regulatory rule.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 16, 2017 5:21 UTC (Wed) by alison (subscriber, #63752) [Link] (2 responses)

>You could make a distinction between software that can interact with >both free and non-free software on a level playing field (e.g. browsers) >and software that cannot function at all without being tied to a >proprietary service.

A proprietary service must make public headers available in order for a free-software component to communicate to it. Making a library available in Debian that speaks this API language encourages the development of free-software replacements for the proprietary service. Furthermore, the development of a set of applications that can, as one feature, speak to the proprietary service is promoted.

Denying the ability of free software tools to speak to proprietary services will end up lending support to Windows and MacOS, where those who are compelled to use the proprietary service will otherwise turn.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 16, 2017 18:03 UTC (Wed) by edeloget (subscriber, #88392) [Link]

I totally agree.

Once a client to a proprietary service has been developed and work, it's possible to develop a free software version of the service itself. Remove the free software client and you'll never have it (why would you? the proprietary client will never want to connect to your non-proprietary version of the same service so you'll have no way to even test it...).

Debian should encourage the developers of free software alternative clients, because while they do not solve the problem of dealing with a proprietary service, they at least show you what's done to communicate with it. And knowledge is an essential part of freedom.

two click cybershopping ain't half bad

Posted Aug 25, 2017 20:26 UTC (Fri) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

Denying the ability of free software tools to speak to proprietary services will end up lending support to Windows and MacOS, where those who are compelled to use the proprietary service will otherwise turn.
Making users opt-in to Contrib with an extra click during install is in no way comparable to 'denying' any ability. In fact it's about the lowest non-zero barrier/impediment one can imagine, here being used to discourage options which don't completely empower the software user to be free to enhance the total system and benefit from and share those enhancements if they have the basic technical skills and inclination to do so.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 16, 2017 10:33 UTC (Wed) by dr@jones.dk (subscriber, #7907) [Link] (1 responses)

Thanks for emphasizing in the article that the issue I raised was different from the one that eventually got discussed a lot on the Debian list.

the adverti$ement game

Posted Aug 26, 2017 0:02 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link]

One could argue that Google gets free advertising in the debian main repository with Chromium due to the naming similarity with the proprietary Chrome. Let me be the first to vote for MetallicWeasel :) Seriously though the exploiting the adverti$ing game amidst the goodness of FOSS is a big part of the equation. Every @gmail.com that passes uncountable times before the many eyeballs, that's priceless prestige. Bill and Hillary probably enjoyed that minor pleasure many of us (here) get from having our own chosen domains in our email addresses.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 4:56 UTC (Thu) by hifi (guest, #109741) [Link] (2 responses)

This is one of the reasons why as a user *I* don't like to use Debian because they are really nitpicking on everything FOSS which usually ends up with the user having worse experience and it all seem so petty for someone like me.

However, I also applaud them for doing that because if no one questions these things we don't get progress towards opening up more services and software. In the end everyone wins regardless what free-ish operating system they use.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 18, 2017 15:35 UTC (Fri) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't use Debian myself, but I'd like to step back and offer an ecumenical view.

People have a spectrum of motives for doing anything in life. Maximizing and respecting that spectrum via licensing and communities that are as granular as possible is a Good Thing.

It may be inefficient to have proprietary web servers for every major group of licenses, true. It may also hurt security and maintainability, yes.

But for some Darwinian reason, the whole of the spectrum seems greater than the sum of any tiny compartment therein.

I don't really need the culturally strong flavor of Debian, personally, but I rejoice in its existence.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 21, 2017 13:33 UTC (Mon) by ianmcc (guest, #88379) [Link]

I agree - nowdays I mostly use Ubuntu, but I sympathize a lot with Debian and I am glad that it exists, even though I'm not actually using it.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 7:53 UTC (Thu) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (6 responses)

...and what about supporting proprietary file formats ?

IMO, the view that by having free software communicate with proprietary online services we help those proprietary services is counterproductive for free software and for freeing users from proprietary software.
Instead, by having free software communicate with proprietary online services we bring freedom at least to the client side, instead of locking the user completely into proprietary software. For online services (or file formats), the user often doesn't have a choice, but simply needs to work with the same service/file format his communication partners are using.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 22:28 UTC (Thu) by spwhitton (subscriber, #71678) [Link] (4 responses)

Is a file format really proprietary in any interesting sense if there is free software that can read it?

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 22:35 UTC (Thu) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link] (3 responses)

It's nice to be able to create files as well as read them. Are there any FOSS tools that can create PDF files containing x-forms? Video encoding also remains a sore point.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 23:15 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

Video encoding is extremely well-covered by F/OSS. Perhaps they're not legal in all jurisdictions thanks to the joys of patent law, but that's not a technical problem that can be solved with software.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 17, 2017 23:25 UTC (Thu) by sfeam (subscriber, #2841) [Link]

Of course. But the question was whether there was a sense in which a file format could be proprietary.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 18, 2017 18:32 UTC (Fri) by spwhitton (subscriber, #71678) [Link]

Thanks, I see what you mean.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Aug 21, 2017 13:54 UTC (Mon) by ianmcc (guest, #88379) [Link]

Wasn't interoperability with proprietary formats one of the original motivations behind free software? Certainly at the time there was no option, as there wasn't enough free software around to make a workable system by itself, but to me interoperability is still a fundamental goal. I'd really love to be able to run android apps on a linux desktop, for example. I think there are some containerized solutions, but surely accessing services using free software fits well within the core aims of the free software movement. If we can get a free version of the app itself then even better, but that isn't always possible. It is different now but for a few years if you wanted to submit your Australian tax return electronically you needed to run some Windows app. In the ideal world that app would be free software, but the reality is that it is not. Now imagine a free software shim that lets you run that app on a free platform - isn't that enabling software freedom?

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Sep 10, 2017 6:13 UTC (Sun) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

It funny that this discussion about proprietary services is being had via a proprietary service, I don't think LWN have released their codebase yet.

Debian debates software for proprietary services

Posted Sep 15, 2017 5:04 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

True; they've said they want it to be open, but not yet because it's more messy than they'd like right now (though that never stopped Slashdot...)

And honestly, I can buy that excuse. The business model here is built around content, on most other sites it's about use of the software itself.


Copyright © 2017, Eklektix, Inc.
This article may be redistributed under the terms of the Creative Commons CC BY-SA 4.0 license
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds