Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog) [LWN.net]

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 5:36 UTC (Tue) by dirtyepic (guest, #30178)
In reply to: Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog) by dfsmith
Parent article: Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

What's the difference? Whether I had it stolen, gave it away, or sold it to you, it doesn't make me criminally responsible for your actions.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 13:51 UTC (Tue) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] (14 responses)

it doesn't make me criminally responsible for your actions.

Except in many jurisdictions and circumstances, providing the means by which a crime takes place is absolutely a crime. For example, the Article 25 of the Rome Statute assigns criminal responsibility to anyone who "... aids, abets or otherwise assists in its commission or its attempted commission, including providing the means for its commission" (my emphasis).

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 15:54 UTC (Tue) by gb (subscriber, #58328) [Link] (3 responses)

One though bothers me for a long time regarding this. Can we say that by creating open source software people are helping terrorists?

As operating system is available to everyone without any restrictions - terrorists also may use it, so people working on let's say Linux really helping terrorists - by providing them means to run advanced technologies.

It is possible to extend that further by saying - authors of the message board helped terrorists by creating way for them to communicate.

Or further - people who allowed tor to operate in the country actually helped terrorists because they know that such situation is possible.

Or we can make it wider by saying that people who elected people who didn't pay attention that tor may be used as means of communications for the terrorists.

One could be very creative with finding responsible... Where is the line and why?

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 16:14 UTC (Tue) by liw (subscriber, #6379) [Link] (2 responses)

By not killing everyone, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are letting terrorists live.

If those who build free software help terrorists, how come those who make proprietary software aren't helping them?

This line of thinking really makes no sense.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 17:11 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> If those who build free software help terrorists, how come those who make proprietary software aren't helping them?

That's easy; the proprietary software's EULA says you can't use it for "bad things", and terrorists would never violate EULAs because violating contractual agreements is the worst, most morally repugnant thing that anyone could do.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 19, 2017 8:05 UTC (Wed) by madhatter (subscriber, #4665) [Link]

Rarely have I so much wished that LWN's comments had "like" buttons (for authenticated subscribers). That said, you owe me a new keyboard.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 17:02 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (7 responses)

You left out a very important qualifier:

> 3. In accordance with this Statute, a person shall be criminally responsible and liable for punishment for a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court if that person: ... (c) For the purpose of facilitating the commission of such a crime, aids, abets or otherwise assists in its commission or its attempted commission, including providing the means for its commission; [emphasis added]

In other words, your intent matters. You only become responsible for a crime under this portion of the statute if your purpose in providing the means for its commission was specifically "facilitating the commission of such a crime". If you are simply offering a tool to the public with no intent to facilitate any crime then you are not responsible for the crimes others may choose to commit using that tool.

(Obligatory: IANAL, YMMV, etc.)

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 19, 2017 9:52 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (6 responses)

Quite. For example, many people have a set of sharp cook's knives in their kitchens. These knives usually have historical design features which are, from the point of view of their intended use, quite stupid and rarely used but make the knives far more useful as lethal weapons (e.g. the point: does anyone ever use this for anything a skewer or fork wouldn't serve for just as well?). Criminals surely know that most houses they pass contain a copious supply of such lethal weapons, even in countries such as the UK in which guns are essentially never seen on the streets and even give some police the creeps.

But, nonetheless... if a criminal broke into your house to take the kitchen knives so as to murder somebody, you would almost certainly not be prosecuted: your intent in buying these knives was not to supply the criminal, the criminal could have broken into essentially any house -- and frankly these crimes are rare because they rarely bother: they probably have a set of kitchen knives themselves!

(So, by extension, to vitiate this situation, every machine should run a Tor exit node! Downsides: the intermediate state, in which everyone running it accepts the possibility of things like, well, this, happening to them... and damn ISP bandwidth charges.)

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 19, 2017 17:12 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

I use the point on my kitchen knives all of the time actually. To open things. Like the plastic packaging on cheese, meat or a frozen bag of vegetables.

And yes, we're surrounded every day by potential weapons.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 20, 2017 22:28 UTC (Thu) by jschrod (subscriber, #1646) [Link] (4 responses)

> e.g. the point: does anyone ever use this for anything a skewer or fork wouldn't serve
> for just as well?

Do you cook? I mean "cook" as in "standing for hours in your kitchen and preparing a menu of several courses", in contrast to "heating something in the micro oven" or "throwing some super-market pasta in boiling water". If yes, how do you do that without a proper set of sharp and pointy knifes?

I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know some terms. In German, it's called "parieren". Online dicts tell me "to parry" might be a good translation. It means to get rid of the tendons [sinews? fibers?], superfluous fat, and subcutaneous "Silberhaut" [silver skin?] below the skin of an animal or fish. Take a rabbit, or take a leg from some game -- you need to get the silver skin off, otherwise, while cooking, it will turn into stuff (either slimy or chewy) that doesn't fit to your meal. Same if you want to poach a turbot -- better to take of that skin and the subcutaneous fat parts, first. (In my part of the world, most fish is farmed and thus has more fat than wild fishes.) And for parring that stuff, you need the sharp point of a sharp knife, neither skewer nor fork will do. After poking into the meat or the fish, you need to immediatly start to cut, something you can do only if the knife has both a sharp point and a sharp edge.

Best, Joachim

PS: Btw, I belong to the folks how regularly sharpen their kitchen knifes on whetstone. No sharpening steel comes close. As weapons, the edges of my knifes are more dangerous than the points. They simply cut, neither strength nor pressure needed -- as it should be with a good kitchen knife.

PPS: I'm sure there are more appropriate English terms for the stuff that I want to tell you. Blame dict.leo.org for not finding better ones... ;-)

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 20, 2017 23:38 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Cool, I never knew why it was called a paring knife.

This discussion reminds me of one of my favorite exercises from C Traps and Pitfalls (the book, not the paper). Something like, "A chef's knife is dangerous and easily misused. Design a knife that corrects this. What are some advantages and drawbacks of your redesigned knife?"

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 22, 2017 14:48 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (2 responses)

Do you cook? I mean "cook" as in "standing for hours in your kitchen and preparing a menu of several courses", in contrast to "heating something in the micro oven" or "throwing some super-market pasta in boiling water". If yes, how do you do that without a proper set of sharp and pointy knifes?

Sharpness is essential, but I've never used the point for anything, except to accidentally stab myself in the hand once when the knife slipped.

I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't know some terms. In German, it's called "parieren". Online dicts tell me "to parry" might be a good translation. It means to get rid of the tendons [sinews? fibers?], superfluous fat, and subcutaneous "Silberhaut" [silver skin?] below the skin of an animal or fish.

I just call it defatting (if there's a special word for it, I'm not posh enough to know it), and I don't need a sharp point for that, I just need an end: you hook the end under the tendons and subcutaneous fat and pull upwards to extract it. The end doesn't need to be sharp, and actually being sharp is a negative because it has a tendency to cut the damn tendon rather than pulling it. I'd almost rather have a hook on the end. :)

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 26, 2017 11:40 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

As jschrod said, the point is for making the initial short incision into a skin, from which to use the long edge of the blade to make the rest of the cut.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 26, 2017 19:42 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Oh, right, it's skin removal! That makes sense, and also explains why I'm not familiar with it: I tend to get stuff from the butcher already skinned.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 19, 2017 18:45 UTC (Wed) by xorbe (guest, #3165) [Link] (1 responses)

Selling knives is legal, but free knives are illegal?

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 19, 2017 19:13 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

If you have reason to believe the knife will be used in a crime, both are illegal.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted Apr 18, 2017 17:11 UTC (Tue) by dfsmith (guest, #20302) [Link] (1 responses)

> What's the difference?

You may recall the San Bernardino shooting in 2015. The neighbor gave his weapons to the shooter. The law in the US saw him as having some culpability in the subsequent actions of the shooter.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/17/us/documen...

Had the weapons been stolen from him, then I doubt Marquez would have been prosecuted on that charge. (Unless the weapons were readily accessible, which is a different complaint.)

While the link to this Tor operator is specious (weapons have one purpose whereas knives and Tor have other utilities; knowledge of intent) the law says there is a difference between stolen, given and sold.

Tor exit node operator arrested in Russia (TorServers.net blog)

Posted May 1, 2017 18:21 UTC (Mon) by JanC_ (guest, #34940) [Link]

I don't know all the details in this case, but maybe they are claiming that the neighbour "should" have known that someone who isn't allowed or willing to buy those weapons himself is probably suspicious.

Also, buying something for someone else, with that other person's money, is not the same as giving something away.