Linux on the Mac — state of the union [LWN.net]

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 2:01 UTC (Thu) by mmeehan (subscriber, #72524)
Parent article: Linux on the Mac — state of the union

On the other hand, Dell's XPS 13 ships with Ubuntu 16.04 and newer hardware for the same price. I wish more developers would vote with their dollar.

Then again, folks get religious about brand identity.

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Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 2:45 UTC (Thu) by montj2 (guest, #111739) [Link] (3 responses)

What about the custom touchbar support? Do you think that will *ever* be possible? I mean, we're talking about several generations of Apple products that will fail to even support function keys.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 14:49 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

Touchbar falls back to F-keys by default if no special configuration is applied.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 15:26 UTC (Thu) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link] (1 responses)

You have to load operating system into TouchBar during boot – https://onemoreadmin.wordpress.com/2016/11/27/the-untouch...
So I doubt it "falls back to F-keys", by default it seem to be empty.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 15:39 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Yes, but it's done through EFI. I don't think there's anything that needs to be done by the OS itself.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 9:49 UTC (Thu) by jond (subscriber, #37669) [Link] (2 responses)

> newer hardware for the same price

*Different* hardware. We can't compare Apples to Oranges.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 7, 2016 16:23 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

They are all manufactured by the same Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturers.

By and large the only thing special about Apple is their weirdness when it comes to things like described in the article. That is, besides, their cases and such.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 7, 2016 17:04 UTC (Wed) by clopez (guest, #66009) [Link]

Really? Whats different? Maybe the CPU architecture?

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 11:49 UTC (Thu) by mips (guest, #105013) [Link] (10 responses)

I wonder whether there is a greater degree of continuity between MacBook Pros, meaning that development effort expended to get Linux working doesn't seem wasted?

A quick look at Wikipedia tells me the XPS 13 has been around since 2012, but I've no familiarity with them, and don't know whether the early XPS 13 was similar to today's.

Either way, design decisions like a non-user-replaceable battery and soldered RAM keep me away from either line.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 1, 2016 17:58 UTC (Thu) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (1 responses)

I think they've mostly just been incremental changes - newer CPU generations, different wifi cards, etc. And Dell puts effort into officially supporting Linux and upstreaming patches, and can select hardware that's going to work okay, and can fix BIOS bugs properly instead of hacking kernel workarounds for them, so there should be less need for volunteers to waste time on model-specific hardware support than for most other brands.

Also they seem to be using fairly standard components, so any effort spent supporting them is likely to help a lot of other devices that happen to use the same components, whereas it sounds like Apple innovates so much that a lot of the work needed is not just Apple-specific but is specific to a single Apple model.

(I got an XPS 13 recently, partly to support companies that support Linux, partly so I didn't have to worry about compatibility, and partly because it sounds like one of the best small laptops regardless of OS. There are still bugs on Linux (e.g. the official USB-C-to-HDMI adapter is apparently fine on Windows but only appears to work at sub-1080p resolutions on Linux) but generally it seems pretty nice.)

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 22:56 UTC (Fri) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link]

I use xps-13 with a generic usb-c - HDMI dongle (30usd before VAT in Norway). It works with a 4k monitor at 30fps. The only annoyance is that it takes like 6 seconds for the monitor to show a picture after connecting the cable or bringing back it from a sleep mode.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 13:59 UTC (Fri) by anton (subscriber, #25547) [Link] (2 responses)

c't has a review of the latest Dell XPS13 Developer edition (german, paywall) under Linux. They found a few warts, e.g., IIRC some clicking when dealing with sound, and less run-time than under Windows (IIRC 11h vs. 22h or so).

Lenovo sells some laptops without OS. I am pretty happy with my E130 (no longer on sale). I have also tested the E31-80 with Ubuntu 16.04, but found it lacking: only 4h battery running time when idle, WLAN needs reinitializing after suspension (possibly fixed with a newer driver; the device is a "Qualcomm Atheros Device 0042"); and for my taste it's simply too big.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 3, 2016 0:00 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (1 responses)

I have a Lenovo X250 from work and it's a sweet machine. The only thing I don't really like is the small display. I just took delivery of a T460 for myself (mostly because it has a bigger screen but uses the same docking station as the X250, which is convenient for working from home) and that is shaping up very nicely, too.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 3, 2016 0:27 UTC (Sat) by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844) [Link]

In my experience Lenovo X2?? laptops have excellent Linux support, I'm very happy with my X230 (and yes, the docking station is lovely); and I know lots of folks with later models. I particularly like that the internal 3G modem works flawlessly, as these things often have terrible Free software support, but Sierra modems tend to play well with NetworkManager.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 7, 2016 21:29 UTC (Wed) by danjared (guest, #80166) [Link] (4 responses)

The battery on the XPS 13 is user-replaceable. Here's the service manual section for doing that on the current model: http://www.dell.com/support/manuals/us/en/19/xps-13-9360-...

(Necessary notice: I work on Linux at Dell.)

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 7, 2016 21:45 UTC (Wed) by micka (subscriber, #38720) [Link]

I'm interested. Does this apply to the 9333 ?
Mine won't charge above 75% (well, provided plasma's charge indicator is correct).

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 8, 2016 0:53 UTC (Thu) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (1 responses)

I have a new XPS-15. There are lots of places Dell marketing says various bits aren't "user replaceable", and that includes the battery.

The first thing I did after getting the thing was to remove the back. I've pulled apart every Dell laptop I've owned for various reasons. This was *by far* the easiest to disassemble. You only have to remove screws on the back that are easy to find.

Once you do remove the back you are confronted with a sticker on the non-user replaceable battery. It says quote: "Please Disconnect and Remove Battery before Accessing The Rest Parts and Devices".

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 8, 2016 4:04 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

The battery in the XPS 13 is apparently classified as user replaceable - they were happy to send me a replacement without sending a tech.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 12, 2016 8:42 UTC (Mon) by gravious (guest, #7662) [Link]

Good to know! Thanks!

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 0:09 UTC (Fri) by JdGordy (subscriber, #70103) [Link] (7 responses)

Is that a US only thing? I just checked the .au dell site and the only OS options on the XPS13 is win10 :/

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 0:37 UTC (Fri) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (6 responses)

https://bartongeorge.io/2016/10/04/the-new-xps-13-develop... says Europe, US, Canada.

https://bartongeorge.io/2015/02/05/update-dell-xps-13-lap... (about an earlier generation) has a comment saying "Unfortunately the XPS 13 developer wont be offered in Australia at this time" (that was nearly two years ago but it doesn't sound like the situation has changed yet).

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 1:02 UTC (Fri) by JdGordy (subscriber, #70103) [Link] (5 responses)

groan :) thanks

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 6:34 UTC (Fri) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link] (1 responses)

On the plus side, the work Dell did to make Linux run on the XPS13 has mostly been upstreamed. So Linux installs on the XPS13 without many of the usual dramas.

The major problem I've had isn't with the XPS13 itself, but the spottiness of HiDPI support for multiple-resolution screens (eg, if you give lots of presentations then Linux HiDPI isn't yet for you; or to put it another way, you need Wayland if you are serious about HiDPI and Wayland still breaks some basic things, like running ~/.bash_profile).

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 6, 2016 22:17 UTC (Tue) by voltagex (guest, #86296) [Link]

I've got an XPS 13 9350 - the patches to support NVMe aren't in yet, and it doesn't look like they will be any time soon [1]

1: http://marc.info/?l=linux-ide&m=147716441701110&w=2

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 8, 2016 0:05 UTC (Thu) by Matt_G (subscriber, #112824) [Link] (2 responses)

I live in Australia and purchased an XPS 13 last week (Dell had a 15% off offer on their website). More specifically I have the 2016 - 9360 model. The laptop came with Windows 10 preinstalled. I installed Fedora 25 on it. I have hit a few issues so far.

The biggest issue was Fedora installer did not recognize the Laptop's built in SSD. I did some searching on the web Arch Linux wiki is very useful and was able to fix this by entering the BIOS and changing the SATA controller to AHCI mode and disabling Secure boot. After I did this Windows would no longer boot. Not an issue for me but it maybe a problem if you wish to dual boot.

I see a few error messages flash up early on in the boot ( 'Ath10k failed to load firmware') but everything seems to work once the system is booted (including stable wifi connection).

The first time I closed the lid it failed to wake from suspend and I had to power cycle it. However it has successfully woken each time I have closed the lid subsequently. I have updated all of the packages on system since then however so it may have been as issue with the initial Fedora 25 installation which has subsequently been fixed.

Trackpad is probably biggest issue it feels very poor to use and often does not register clicks.

I can't comment on battery life as I never ran Windows on it for comparison and I mostly operate it plugged in to a power outlet.

Overall I'm mostly satisfied - however given Dell's support for Linux I would have expected it to work better out of the box (especially the SATA controller) and I am disappointing with Trackpad.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 8, 2016 1:13 UTC (Thu) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (1 responses)

> Trackpad is probably biggest issue it feels very poor to use and often does not register clicks.

Make sure you are using libinput, as opposed to the Synaptics driver.

> The first time I closed the lid it failed to wake from suspend and I had to power cycle it.
> given Dell's support for Linux I would have expected it to work better out of the box (especially the SATA controller)
> The biggest issue was Fedora installer did not recognize the Laptop's built in SSD.

Intel, Intel, Intel. Intel hasn't published the specs for the "RAID" mode of their new chipsets. Their GPU drivers were abysmal, causing suspend / resume to fail (you probably could have ssh'ed in). I'm not sure "were" is the right word as they still are iffy in some corner cases - I'm hoping they will be solid in 4.9. Windows didn't have the "RAID" problem because Intel wrote a Windows driver, but if anything it has lagged behind the latest released Linux kernel when it comes to GPU support. (I have a theory the reason Apple didn't release a refresh for so long is Intel could not supply reliable GPU drivers / firemware.)

Be sure to keep your BIOS up to date - it helps with the GPU issues. Also, until this settles down ensure you poll Intel's site for GPU firmware: https://01.org/linuxgraphics/downloads

> I mostly operate it plugged in to a power outlet.

Then ensure you tell the BIOS to keep the battery at about 60%. This will do wonders for your battery longevity.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 8, 2016 2:29 UTC (Thu) by Matt_G (subscriber, #112824) [Link]

Thanks, I assumed something like that was the case. For hardware as new as this is it works remarkably well. Miles better then where things used to be.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 2, 2016 22:59 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (4 responses)

Then again, folks get religious about brand identity.

But if you're not running MacOS, you've given up the Apple brand.

So I still wonder what, besides the challenge, people want out of Linux on Mac hardware.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 5, 2016 19:44 UTC (Mon) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link] (3 responses)

Apple does put together some very nice hardware packages, not just in terms of raw specs but also in terms of design and quality of the components they use. They've cared about a lot of that stuff for longer than most of their competitors, so they have brand loyalty for their hardware even among some people who want to rip out their software and replace it with Linux.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 5, 2016 22:34 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

In the office the latest round of hardware is getting sour reviews. No new Mini, a lackluster laptop, and a still overpriced and under powered cylinder. The only thing left is the one that lives in a monitor which can't be a machine that just lives under a desk all that easily.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 5, 2016 23:25 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Same here. Their entire laptop line is getting weak against the competitors (possible exception for the niche 12" MacBook), and the Mini and Pro are downright embarrassing. About the only thing that still shines is the retina iMac.

I'm hoping Dell and Asus smell blood and move in for the kill.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 6, 2016 20:38 UTC (Tue) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

It's certainly possible for Apple to lose some of their brand loyalty by putting out lame products or failing to keep their good ones updated. I've never liked their design approach. They're always looking for the next big thing and throwing away the current useful thing to make space, so you wind up having to buy new accessories or new dongles (which undermine the alleged simplicity of the design) with every new generation. Their ridiculous decision to go with a single USB type-C port as their only external connection on the new non-pro MacBook seems like the ultimate expression of that thinking.

Why bother?

Posted Dec 7, 2016 11:22 UTC (Wed) by timrichardson (subscriber, #72836) [Link]

Three weeks with an 2011 Thinkpad w520 as an experiment to see what life is like after Macbook Pros has been a tremendous success. I have even Optimus working on three screens. This ancient machine can take 32 GB (since for $AUD 360 I got a quadcore). If I bought a 15" Macbook in 2017, it would max out at 16GB, the same as an old Macbook pro my son has ended up with. It still has a DVD drive, that's how long the macs have been stuck at 16GB. I don't think the 15" Macs have a compelling hardware argument any longer that would encourage me to deal with the problems of running Linux. What's the pay back? The pursuit of thinness has meant inferior keyboards, 2010-era RAM capacity, a terrible port selection and no expandability to go with a sealed battery and glossy screens. As for battery life, this ancient W520 on its original battery still gets me five to six hours. That's a 2nd gen i7. Skylake should knock the socks of it.

A good thing about Macs is they have high resale value. I'll sell mine, and it will pay for my experimental W520 and the P50 on the way. Apple doesn't help Linux, and there doesn't seem to be much reason any longer to even try.

Ubuntu by the way has been amazing. While I use linux a lot on servers, and increasingly in desktop VMs, I did not expect it to be such a capable replacement as a daily driver. I am completely convinced now.

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 12, 2016 21:14 UTC (Mon) by hobarrera (guest, #101888) [Link] (1 responses)

Did you even read the article? It talks in great details about unique hardware features that no other vendor offers (which are really useful for battery-saving).

Linux on the Mac — state of the union

Posted Dec 13, 2016 1:09 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

My Lenovo T460 seems to get at least 10–12 hours of use out of a single charge using stock Debian pre-Stretch, probably more with tweaking. I don't really see why I should pay extra for some “unique hardware features” and apparently a lot of drama just getting Linux installed. Given that the T460 has two batteries, one of which can easily be swapped out while the computer is running, it's probably simpler and cheaper (both in terms of real money and time saved) to buy another battery.