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Security quotes of the week

Security quotes of the week

Posted Oct 18, 2016 2:58 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106)
In reply to: Security quotes of the week by farnz
Parent article: Security quotes of the week

> But *why* is it not speech? … I'm doing it to make a political point; it's intended as a grand statement about the way the police are perceived in certain communities.

It isn't a Freedom of Speech issue because the restriction is not about the *content* of the expression, but rather the means. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Freedom of Speech means that the government isn't permitted to step in and prevent you from making your point, or punish you for doing so, no matter how much they would prefer your silence, but it doesn't mean that you have any special rights over others or their property. The content of the speech can be whatever you wish, but your means of expression are limited what you normally have the right to do.

Freedom of Speech is a very narrow application of the Non-Aggression Principle which only covers the use of your property for the purpose of speech. Both are negative rights (non-interference) rather than positive rights (something which must be provided to you). The N.A.P. implies the freedom to use your own property (and _only_ your own property) for any purpose you wish, including speech. In both cases the old adage applies that "your right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose". You have every right to express whatever you want using your mind, your voice, your paper, your ink—but you do not have the right to use me, or my venue, as part of your speech without my permission.

There is really too much emphasis, in my opinion, on the Freedom of Speech per se. It misses the more fundamental principle at stake and overlooks the fact that the same freedom should apply to other private and non-harmful uses of one's property. Moreover, by protecting only "speech" we open the door to restrictions on _effective_ communication methods which, while not _directly_ based on the content of the speech, still make it difficult for anyone lacking sufficient wealth and/or political connections to have their message heard by the masses. Rather than directly targeting undesirable speech, those in power can limit effective speech _in general_ to those with whom they share common interests.

> ... you can't claim that you have absolute freedom of speech and that other rights override it.

Actually you can. This is where negative and positive rights differ. Positive rights are always in conflict, because they mean that you're owed something and others are compelled to give it to you. This inevitably creates tension and a situation where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else. Negative rights, being grounded in non-interference, can be absolute without contradiction. You have the absolute right to freedom of speech, or more generally, the right to property—no one ever has the right to prevent you from speaking, or from otherwise using your own property. Of course, the same is true with regard to yourself—you do not have the right to prevent others from speaking, or to interfere with their own use of their property (including themselves). The only actions which are permissible are those which respect the absolute natural rights of everyone involved.


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Security quotes of the week

Posted Oct 18, 2016 4:05 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

I agree with this. I couldn't come up with a way to say how the kidnapping example was wrong to me, but nybble41 has done well in finding words for me at least.

Security quotes of the week

Posted Oct 18, 2016 9:38 UTC (Tue) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (2 responses)

See, this is where my model of rights and yours differs; in my model, rights conflict, and the NAP is how you decide on the most equitable resolution of that conflict.

So, in the case of our abused Harvard student, they have a right to not be molested, which conflicts with our activist's right to speech. The NAP tells you that, in this situation, the abused student's right to not be molested is stronger than the activist's right to speech, because the activist is intruding on the student, not the other way around.

I get concerned about the "it's not about the content, it's about the means" argument, because (again taken to extremes because easy cases only make for nodding heads, not considered arguments) saying that it's unlawful to use mechanical or electrical means to amplify your speech is solely about means, not content, and yet would suggest that you can't use the Internet to exercise your right to speech.

And no, you can't. If you have absolute freedom of speech, then exercising your right to speak takes precedence over all other rights and principles; you've continued to say that you have freedom of speech conditional on the non-aggression principle. This is a reasonable position, but it does mean that my right to speak is not an absolute override on all other rights.

Security quotes of the week

Posted Oct 18, 2016 15:04 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (1 responses)

> I get concerned about the "it's not about the content, it's about the means" argument, because ... saying that it's unlawful to use mechanical or electrical means to amplify your speech is solely about means, not content, and yet would suggest that you can't use the Internet to exercise your right to speech.

True, because that would not be a restriction on your Freedom of Speech, but rather on your freedom to use the Internet. This is why I said that the Non-Aggression Principle is more important than the narrow application of Freedom of Speech. Under the N.A.P. they don't have the right to deny you the use of the Internet (as an outside party with no property rights at stake), for the purpose of speech or anything else. However, as long as the prohibition is on Internet use _in general_ and not just the use of the Internet for specific types of speech, the rule would not violate the Freedom of Speech.

> ... you've continued to say that you have freedom of speech conditional on the non-aggression principle.

No, I've said that the Freedom of Speech is one application of the Non-Aggression Principle. They aren't in conflict, they're the same thing. Rights being universal, your exercise of the N.A.P. in the form of Freedom of Speech must respect the fact that others have exactly the same rights under the N.A.P. Speech is no different from any other action you might take in this regard. However, there is no profit in trying to debate this point within the self-contradictory framework of conflicting positive rights. You will not find an objective answer there to the question of which rights are "more important", only subjective opinion.

Security quotes of the week

Posted Oct 18, 2016 15:47 UTC (Tue) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

So, as an example, if I said that you may not use electrical or mechanical means to declare your support for a political party, is that a restriction on my freedom of speech (because you've restricted content), or on my freedom to use amplification? I'd argue very strongly that it's a restriction on speech, even though it's phrased as a restriction on means too, because it's about the content, but if I'm understanding you properly, you'd say it's a restriction on means, because the key is that it's about the amplification effect that electrical or mechanical means give me?

And you're still avoiding the conflict issue - even within the NAP, there are contradictions (for example, is it illegal for you to reflect coloured photons from your clothing onto me? If not, is it illegal for you to use a perfect mirror to reflect photons from my terawatt laser pointed at my property onto me personally?)


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