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Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Fortune covers a ruling [PDF] by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit that invalidates three patents asserted against anti-virus companies Symantec and Trend Micro. "The most important part of the decision, which has created a stir among the patent bar, is a concurrence by Circuit Judge Haldane Mayer. In striking down a key claim from U.S. Patent 5987610, which claims a monopoly on using anti-virus tools within a phone network, Mayer says it is time to acknowledge that a famous Supreme Court 2014 decision known as “Alice” basically ended software patents altogether."

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Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 10, 2016 20:01 UTC (Mon) by jhhaller (guest, #56103) [Link] (11 responses)

Alas, the US Court of Appeals can't seem to let software patents go, putting the Apple-Samsung judgement (covering slide-to-unlock among other issues) back in place. I would expect the Symantec/Trend Micro case to go to an en banc rehearing, which is likely to go the same way as Apple-Samsung. Until the Supreme Court gives less ambiguous feedback to USCoA, software patents aren't dead. Patents which cover pre-existing ideas, but "on a computer" are dead, but new ideas which may be implemented in software, or not, are likely to have wiggle room.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 10, 2016 20:27 UTC (Mon) by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978) [Link] (9 responses)

Personally I would have thought "slide-to-unlock" would simply be a computer-implemented version of a sliding latch which is already a well-established mechanism in the physical world. I haven't looked into the details though so perhaps there's more to it than that.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 10, 2016 20:41 UTC (Mon) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link] (1 responses)

From what I've heard*, Apple had a lot of problems getting the patent granted, and it wasn't until they added a "must maintain firm pressure throughout" clause that they were able to succeed. If true, this probably has important implications, but I have no idea what they are. I could speculate, but it seems a waste of time without more information, and it's not really my field in the first place.

* In other words, "I heard from a guy who heard from a guy...", i.e., you should treat this like any other _completely unsubstantiated_ Internet rumor.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 1:57 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

The only important implication from this is that you need a lot of money to play the patent game. Very few people can afford teams of patent attorneys to just sit there and spam the patent office with patent applications.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 10, 2016 20:50 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

"Old and well known thing, except on a computer" has been a rich source of patents for decades. Alice weakened it but I don't think it's been killed off entirely yet. It's about time!

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 4:57 UTC (Tue) by gutschke (subscriber, #27910) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm more puzzled by why Apple got a patent on recognizing data such as dates and addresses, and making them clickable. I remember doing that in XEmacs in the mid 90s

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 7:01 UTC (Tue) by guus (subscriber, #41608) [Link]

That was on a computer. This is on a phone. Totally different.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 12:03 UTC (Tue) by k3ninho (subscriber, #50375) [Link] (3 responses)

You have to be careful to distinguish the 'innovation patent', which has tests of novelty and inventiveness, from the 'design patent', for the shape and configuration of a given object's design. They had both, but the innovation patent was challenged and revoked.

K3n.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 16, 2016 17:14 UTC (Sun) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

The problem with the "design patent" is it should really be a trademark. Basically, it's "don't make your device look like mine", so has nothing to do with patents as we understand the term today.

Unfortunately, the term "patent" has its origin in the term "letters patent", which covers a multitude of sins :-(

Cheers,
Wol

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 31, 2016 18:51 UTC (Mon) by JanC_ (subscriber, #34940) [Link]

Trademarks are about avoiding confusion of who you buy from, preventing tricking potential customers into thinking they buy a product from another company. They are a means to protect against counterfeiting.

I doubt that can ever apply to relatively unimportant parts of a designs; nobody will think they own an Apple product based on the design of a slider widget or a similarly small detail.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 31, 2016 19:23 UTC (Mon) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

In the UK, a "design patent" is a "registered design". Same concept, different name.

It's not a trademark, because it's not about consumer confusion (the big "SAMSUNG" on the top of the device should tell you that this isn't an Apple device); rather, it's about not having competing objects look like yours.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 1:33 UTC (Tue) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link]

That ruling was mostly about the primacy of juries in fact finding:

We did not need to solicit additional briefing or argument to conclude that the appellate court cannot rely on extra-record extrinsic evidence in the first instance or make factual findings about what such extrinsic evidence suggests about the plain meaning of a claim term in the art at the relevant time or how such extra record evidence may inform our understanding of how the accused device operates. We likewise did not need additional briefing or argument to determine that the appellate court is not permitted to reverse fact findings that were not appealed or that the appellate court is required to review jury fact findings when they are appealed for substantial evidence. The panel reversed nearly a dozen jury fact findings including infringement, motivation to combine, the teachings of prior art references, commercial success, industry praise, copying , and long-felt need across three different patents. It did so despite the fact that some of these findings were not appealed and without ever mentioning the applicable substantial evidence standard of review. And with regard to objective indicia, it did so in ways that departed from existing law.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 10, 2016 21:36 UTC (Mon) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (12 responses)

I know it takes time to get things through to Judges, but if you read the dissenting opinion at the end - Stoll - he completely misses the elephant in the room.

In order to virus-scan emails, you need to be part of a network in order to receive emails. That means your network must be part of the internet.

So how can you "move processing off the end-user computer on to the internet", when your end-user computer is part of the Internet!?!?

Cheers,
Wol

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 3:28 UTC (Tue) by ajdlinux (subscriber, #82125) [Link] (1 responses)

Just remember - There's No Such Thing As The Cloud!

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 11, 2016 17:06 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

I thought the internet was just something you buy from the cable company?

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 8:04 UTC (Wed) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] (9 responses)

So how can you "move processing off the end-user computer on to the internet", when your end-user computer is part of the Internet!?!?
Because only a pedant with no interest in language-as-it-actually-used -- and no awareness of how context in written language modifies meaning -- would refer to processing something on a local computer to be "processing something on the Internet". It's abundantly clear what the latter means in this context - it means on a remote computer through which the message has passed. And, indeed, all previous case law (which is the only standard that matters here, not some geek's pedantic dickweedery) has established that. See Claim 1 of BASCOM, etc...

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 9:50 UTC (Wed) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (1 responses)

Because only a pedant with no interest in language-as-it-actually-used -- and no awareness of how context in written language modifies meaning -- would refer to processing something on a local computer to be "processing something on the Internet".

I'm sure this arbitrary distinction then only serves to facilitate the filing of a bunch of "novel" peer-to-peer patents and a whole bunch of other stuff besides. ("Distributed cloud" patents, perhaps.)

Parts of the rest of your comment adopt a tone that is below the standard of discourse we should aspire to in this forum.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 12:55 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Thanks.

But the opposite of a pedant is Humpty Dumpty. And if you want to go there, well why bother to have language at all ... :-)

At the end of the day, if you want RATIONAL discourse, then you have to be a pedant otherwise there is no meaningful communication. (Of course, if all that interests you is gossip, who cares whether you're using, or abusing, the language.)

Cheers,
Wol

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 12:57 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> And, indeed, all previous case law (which is the only standard that matters here, not some geek's pedantic dickweedery) has established that. See Claim 1 of BASCOM, etc...

And all that previous case law is based on lawyerly Humpty Dumpty arguments.

Which is why it's now beginning to fall apart as it circles the black hole of illogic and indefensible conclusions :-)

Cheers,
Wol

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 16:35 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (5 responses)

> Because only a pedant with no interest in language-as-it-actually-used

So you think it's unreasonable that a person who is deciding the fate of major businesses and potentially millions of dollars and hundreds of jobs riding on decision surrounding the future of software technology shouldn't be bothered to use technical terms accurately?

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 17:05 UTC (Wed) by fest3er (guest, #60379) [Link] (4 responses)

I think he meant just the opposite.

Without the governing influence of pedantry, spoken and written language will eventually cease to have common, stable meanings and will cease to function as a way for a person to communicate the ideas in her head to any other person.

I still maintain that software patents are invalid because (1) software is intangible and can do nothing, (2) software is an idea and thus can only be copyrighted, and (3) software is a sequence of instructions that can tell a computer or a person what to do, just as English prose is a sequence of instructions that tell most people which thoughts to think and which images to conjure. When written poorly, the desired results are not achieved. Like prose, any piece of software is an intangible idea, not a tangible thing that effect change in the real universe.

Alas, our human languages are controlled by people who control our liberty and the value of our wealth; they twist and warp our languages to mean whatever they want them to mean at any given moment. There is no other way to explain how 'software patents' came to exist in the first place.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 18:49 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (3 responses)

Failing to understand that sometimes people need to use exact definitions and that different disciplines have different definitions for the same words also is a major failure to understand how language works.

Context matters. If the judge was waxing poetic about the future of software patents on his personal blog I am not going to care if he uses layman definitions. But that is not what is going on here. He is making very technical decisions and statements about very technical subjects in a very specific problem domain. Using layman terms is not going to cut it.

Let me give you a example:

Imagine you implement a P2P virus scanning service. The way it may be used sometimes is that it executes major portions of it's logic entirely on your own computer and only starts leveraging the network of peered nodes under certain conditions, like it's using more then 20% of the available cpu cycles (or whatever).

Does that qualify for 'internet processing' or 'running on my computer processing'? Is it both or is it neither? How would the judge's judgment impact this?

What if you have a number of local machines on your local network and that local network is connected to the network and you are using your P2P anti-virus processing agents on those. The P2P protocol is smart enough to favor peers with low latency and high bandwidth locations. If it didn't qualify as 'internet processing' before, then does it now? What if the machines only have private network addresses, does that matter?

What about if the protocol is running over IPv4, but the machines have internet addressable IPv6 addresses. Does that qualify as the 'internet' now?

If I have my network of machines and absolutely no local processing of data is happening on my local computer, and I disconnect them from the internet by severing the external network connection, does that mean I no longer violating the patent because the remote machines are not part of the internet?

...

Imagine I was designing a new way of processing minerals and important part of the patent was that I was using a new type of cheap-but-strong sprag clutch with helical cut gears as part of the assembly. The helical cut is also important because it helped keep proper pressure on a thrust washer in order to reduce component cost and eliminated certain types of assembly errors, which is also part of the patent.

If I was walking down the street and shown that to people they may say that is a 'gear' or 'wheel'. If I shown them straight-cut gears they would also call that a 'gear' or a 'wheel'. If I shown them a pulley for a serpentine belt then they would also call that a 'gear' because of the indention on the surface.

So now I have to go to court and everybody just uses the generic term 'gear' during the discussion because that is the commonly accepted definition. Things would get extremely confusing very fast.

> still maintain that software patents are invalid because (1) software is intangible and can do nothing,

Patents themselves then are 'intangible and do nothing'.

Look at a patent. All a patent is a series of steps... it is a algorithm. All patents are algorithms. Software is also a way to describe algorithms. Software describes how switches in a computer operates to manipulate electronic signals going in and out of that physical computer.

When you get a patent you are not getting a patent on a particular hunk of metal or a particular machine or device anything like that. You are receiving a patent on a _process_. The patent covers the steps necessary to do something. When you see patent numbers of items it's not patented the actual _object_.. but it is a patent to do with how the object is designed, how it's made, how it gets used or something else along that lines.

I certainly do think that software patents should be abolished, but I don't think they really are unique or there is a some sort of fundamental difference that matters. All IP laws, including patents and copyrights, are completely arbitrary and are designed based on convenience and expected outcomes. There is no fundamental reality or concept that underlies this type of law, other then 'greatest good for the greatest number'.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 12, 2016 19:11 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (2 responses)

We are talking *software* patents here. This is computing - maths.

If the Judges use the street meaning of words, that have a different - precise - meaning in computer jargon, then those rulings using the street meaning are going to end up in an illogical mess.

If a ruling uses words whose meaning is unclear, you are pretty much *guaranteed* a nasty mess, not least because the next ruling to come along will use the same words with a different meaning, and any attempt to reconcile the result will make a horrible mess ... :-) If you're ruling on software, you MUST use computer jargon and, more importantly, you must use such jargon CORRECTLY. Same with any other field.

Cheers,
Wol

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 13, 2016 7:14 UTC (Thu) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (1 responses)

Arguing about patents is fun so I will join in.

Patent holders don't care about math. Software patents are about results in the physical world, such as a video on a TV.

No one will ever sue if the computer just does math without physical effect.

Here's Why Software Patents Are in Peril (Fortune)

Posted Oct 15, 2016 22:30 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

So patent the TV (whoops, that was 80 years ago ...), patent the computer (whoops, that was what, 200 years ago? ...).

Just don't patent the *instructions* that the computer uses to display the video on the tv.

Cheers,
Wol


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