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FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

The Free Software Foundation's Defective By Design campaign reports that Tim Berners-Lee decided not to exercise his power to extend the development timeline for the Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) Web technology standard. "Berners-Lee made his surprising decision on Tuesday, as explained in an email announcement by W3C representative Philippe Le Hégaret. Instead of granting a time extension — as he has already done once — Berners-Lee delegated the decision to the W3C's general decision-making body, the Advisory Committee. The Advisory Committee includes diverse entities from universities to companies to nonprofits, and it is divided as to whether EME should be part of Web standards. It is entirely possible that the Advisory Committee will reject the time extension and terminate EME development, marking an important victory for the free Web."

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FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 7, 2016 20:17 UTC (Fri) by juliank (guest, #45896) [Link] (42 responses)

Whether we continue with the unstandardized EMEs or with standardized ones does not really make much of a difference, does it?

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 7, 2016 20:54 UTC (Fri) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link] (22 responses)

Big difference. There've been big campaigns for more than a decade for government bodies to use open/free standards such as W3C HTML, and a lot of governments have made firm commitments to various degrees. If DRM enabling features get added to HTML, then that progress could crumble because governments could distribute DRM'd documents, information etc. and say they're still abiding by their open/free standard commitments.

(The pro-DRM crowd will say, "Don't worry, DRM isn't being added to HTML, it's just an interface", but when you're trying to explain the difference to governments, you're losing.)

Hats off to FSF for keeping this topic alive when many gave up because it looked like too big a fight.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 14:34 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (21 responses)

This is a red herring.

The primary characteristic of DRM is how delusional it is and how it will never be able to deliver on it's promises. In order to view a encrypted document you must be able to decrypt it first. Which means that every system capable of consuming DRM content is also capable of creating a unencrypted version. It's mostly a matter of learning how a particular DRM system works in detail, then you win.

Which is why DRM needs to be protected (ie: kept secret from the public) by government legislation and law enforcement for it to have any teeth at all. It's a situation were the pro-DRM side needs the government to make sure that nobody ever talks about how the world is round, because it being flat is more conducive to their business model.

If governments were actually interested in restriction access to documents then there are a whole host of standardized and very effective encyption protocols at their disposal. Which is something they do not hesitate to take advantage of in very large scales right now.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 15:42 UTC (Mon) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (20 responses)

I don't disagree with what you said but the primary purpose of DRM isn't necessarily to block all attempts, it's to make it hard enough to block casual breaking, ie making it so it's not "Napster" simple for the common user. If it requires extensive experience to crack it they've accomplished their goal. Though I'm sure they'd like to block any attempt to extract the data they have settled for making it very difficult.

Though I'd like to see DRM go away the reality is that we can't stop it by refusing to standardize it. As others have said, if the W3C doesn't standardize it others will, Google's already said as much. Their contract require they provide DRM so they will provide it, and like many standards before it a commercial solution will end up as the standard. For me it's more important that Flash goes away and DRM is one of the reasons it still hangs around. And a standardized DRM implementation might actually make it possible to use DRM protected content on FOSS systems.

If for no other reason than putting the final stake into the Flash zombie W3C should standardize DRM.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 16:57 UTC (Mon) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (9 responses)

> If it requires extensive experience to crack it they've accomplished their goal.

This aim conflicts with the fundamental nature of computers. It only requires *one* person with extensive experience to crack the DRM; once discovered, the technique can be packaged up in a script and distributed for anyone to run. The economic factors are arrayed against DRM as well: everyone with content locked up behind a DRM barrier getting in the way of using that content they way they want, with a wide variety of experience and creativity to apply toward fixing this problem, vs. a small handful of employees both willing and able to come up with novel DRM mechanisms.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 10:02 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (7 responses)

You are partially right—yes, DRM schemes are always chnaging since people which crack them are creative. But they are not supposed to stop piracy. Their goal is to make piracy illegal.

Everything you say about DRM is also true for locks. Real, physical, locks. Only manufacturer is trying to protect them. And it's not that hard to bypass them. Yet they work. Why? Bacause their primary purpose is demarcation. Locks are supposed to be “good enough” to make an excuse “I've trespassed the property by accident, I just had no idea it's prohibited” infeasible. Similarly DRM is supposed to make sure excuse “I've copied the rented movie to my movie collection by accident” infeasible.

That's much lower bar than you are trying to imply.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 11:40 UTC (Tue) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (4 responses)

Please do not use the piracy word.

A lot of activity prevented by DRM are legal, at least in some juridiction, so practicing them is not piracy.

If someone adds an extra anti-theft system to my bike, It is still legal for me to remove it by force. It is not the case with DRM.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 19:27 UTC (Tue) by fandingo (guest, #67019) [Link] (3 responses)

> If someone adds an extra anti-theft system to my bike, It is still legal for me to remove it by force.

Presumably when you say "my bike," you're implying ownership. The analogy falls apart because you don't own DRM-protected works in this context. You license them. It's similar to prohibitions on removing the anti-theft system on a leased car.

> A lot of activity prevented by DRM are legal, at least in some juridiction, so practicing them is not piracy.

> It is not the case with DRM.

I can't reconcile these two statements. The former alludes to the real exemptions in the DMCA and similar laws; the latter falsely claims they don't exist.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 13, 2016 13:59 UTC (Thu) by FLHerne (guest, #105373) [Link] (1 responses)

>> If someone adds an extra anti-theft system to my bike, It is still legal for me to remove it by force.

> Presumably when you say "my bike," you're implying ownership. The analogy falls apart because you don't own DRM-protected works in this context. You license them. It's similar to prohibitions on removing the anti-theft system on a leased car.

This isn't true in all jurisdictions - European courts have repeatedly found that ebooks, software etc. can be functionally 'sold' regardless of the wording. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/top-eu-court-u...

>> A lot of activity prevented by DRM are legal, at least in some juridiction, so practicing them is not piracy.
>> It is not the case with DRM.

> I can't reconcile these two statements. The former alludes to the real exemptions in the DMCA and similar laws; the latter falsely claims they don't exist.

Under the DMCA, it's illegal to circumvent DRM restrictions *even to perform a legal action*. For example, it was temporarily legal to make personal backup copies until that exemption got squashed, but illegal to circumvent DRM mechanisms in the process.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 13, 2016 14:01 UTC (Thu) by FLHerne (guest, #105373) [Link]

[the DMCA does have some explicit exceptions where DRM can be circumvented, but they're far from exhaustive in the space of otherwise-legal actions]

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 13, 2016 14:56 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> The analogy falls apart because you don't own DRM-protected works in this context. You license them. It's similar to prohibitions on removing the anti-theft system on a leased car.

This analogy falls apart because, unlike a car anti-theft system, the DRM is not part of the licensed work. It consists of separate instructions which direct the device the work is viewed on to behave in ways contrary to the wishes of the owner of that device. On contrast to removing a physical anti-theft system, bypassing the DRM does not modify the DRM or the work in any way—they are both, after all, pure information, non-rivalrous and immune to modification. It is simply a matter of using your own device to view the work while ignoring the treacherous embedded instructions.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 11:43 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Their goal is to make piracy illegal.

Piracy has *always* been illegal.

Your analogy of "DRM vs physical locks" is a good one, except that it's not illegal to talk about picking locks or buy lockpicks. It's not even inherently illegal to use said lockpicks, unless it's to further some other crime (eg tresspass or burglary)

...The DRM folks have successfully criminalized mere talking about picking locks and even making your own lockpicks, not to mention actually using them for pretty much any purpose. Even when said "lockpick" is the technical equivalent to "push firmly on the partially-open door with one finger"

</rant>

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 15:47 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>But they are not supposed to stop piracy. Their goal is to make piracy illegal.

Piracy was already illegal.
DRM actually has two purposes:

1) To make casual copying too awkward to bother with, and in doing so reduce - but not eliminate - casual piracy. This mostly works: I might lend somebody a Blu-Ray, but I doubt I could be bothered to work out how to duplicate it, even if I were so inclined (which I am not). In a different area, a number of AAA games recently have not been cracked for many months, meaning after the point when the vast majority of sales are made. Whether this is worth the cost (in terms of DRM R&D plus pissing people off) is a different question.
2) To provide a legal means of preventing actions that are in themselves legal, such as format-shifting or making Free software to play a Blu-Ray.

The balance between whether I think it's mostly for 1) or mostly for 2) depends on how cynical I'm feeling at a given moment. I'm vaguely sympathetic to 1) even though I think it's misguided and ultimately not worth the cost, whereas I see 2) as basically pure evil.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 12:53 UTC (Tue) by aggelos (subscriber, #41752) [Link]

While easy replication means that DRM only needs to be defeated once (well, assuming the people who accomplish that want to publicize their technique), it doesn't mean that DRM is useless for locking things in.

If a company/conglomerate makes 80% of the profit in the first N years after some piece of work is published, then a DRM scheme which survives for ~(N+M) years might already be good enough. In fact, if you can plan for this and regularly roll out significantly different DRM schemes (admittedly, timely deployment of replacements is a big 'if'), there's no reason that this sequence of DRM schemes can't be deemed 'successful'. I mean, the objective never was "be safe against everyone, forever".

Take the skype protocol. It was the holy grail of reverse engineering efforts for many years. By the time people figured it out (for some definition of "figured it out" - I don't think anyone ever built an alternative skype client, but dunno if that was for lack of information), the protocol was close to being replaced by what I understand to be a significantly different one.

So sure, DRM is unlike physical locks in that you only need someone to break it once. There is one similarity though: it just needs to hold out long enough for the locked piece of information to have lost most of its value. I don't think the fundamental nature of computers conflicts with that...

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 17:05 UTC (Mon) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (9 responses)

> And a standardized DRM implementation might actually make it possible to use DRM protected content on FOSS systems.

Potentially a worthy goal, unfortunately nobody is working on anything like that.

All attempts at even just suggesting that are shot down by DRM proponents since they want to sell their DRM and being as incompatible as possible so you can control both server and client side, is one of the main means to maximize profit.

That's one of infurating things about this situation: that they managed to make people believe it is about a standardized DRM implementation while working on the exact opposite.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 19:24 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (8 responses)

> Potentially a worthy goal, unfortunately nobody is working on anything like that.

This may be interesting:

https://lbry.io/

source code: https://github.com/lbryio/

Supporters will often claim that it's not DRM, but in the blandest definition of 'digital rights management' I believe it qualifies. The basic idea here is you use modern P2P technology (blockchain, dht, etc) to create a P2P distributed network on the internet that facilitates the publishing and payment of media.

Unlike 'malicious DRM' you typically see pushed by the publishing industries it doesn't attempt to remove the ability to copy content from users. What it does is, however, is that it leverages the network to enforce a degree of transparency so that if you do republish work under different conditions then the original it will be obvious what you've done. This should help discourage people from 'stealing' other people's content and attempting to monetize it without their permission.

I think, personally, that if people can afford to pay for content they will generally do so if it's convenience. Besides ethical problems with most malicious DRM schemes what they do is make their content more difficult and unpleasant for users to use then just downloading it illegally. The forced-watching-of-previews when playing movie disks is a perfect example of this. When 'free' is better quality then the stuff you pay for it really discourages people from buying it. LBRY, if successful, may solve these sorts of ethical and user friendliness issues.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 20:53 UTC (Mon) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (3 responses)

> Supporters will often claim that it's not DRM, but in the blandest definition of 'digital rights management' I believe it qualifies.

The supporters are right, at least on this point. LBRY is no more "DRM" than any retail store currently considered "DRM-free", and involves considerably less "management" of digital "rights" than most. It is nothing more or less than a decentralized content index and delivery system. Once the content has been downloaded it's no longer governed by this network. It doesn't even technically include the payment protocol, since that's handled out-of-band via either a third-party service or a site operated by the publisher.

> What it does is, however, is that it leverages the network to enforce a degree of transparency so that if you do republish work under different conditions then the original it will be obvious what you've done.

It's pretty obvious anyway, so this isn't a significant change. Sure, it's great that anyone can publish whatever they want and have an easy way to accept payment for it without being beholden to big publishers or forced to run their own storefront... but in the end, that's all it is. Being the first to publish something on LBRY does not imply that you are the original creator and/or the holder of the copyrights, and—provided one does not make the mistake of charging a fee, and thus profiting from the infringement—there is no difference between publishing infringing content anonymously on LBRY vs. TPB or any other torrent site. Anyway, the real threat (as perceived by the pro-DRM crowd) is less that the same content will be republished on LBRY under a different name, and more that once it's been downloaded from LBRY it can easily be uploaded *anywhere*. It's not even possible to insert a watermark identifying the buyer, since the distribution model depends on every user getting the same version of the file. No one who was interested in using DRM would consider LBRY a suitable substitute.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 2:31 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (2 responses)

> and involves considerably less "management" of digital "rights" than most.

That's the core function of LRBY, actually. You publish your content on the network and set the requirements a person must meet before they can download it. The protocol itself enforces these restrictions.

That's pretty much the entire point.

If your definition of 'DRM' must include 'restricts what users can do with it once it's decrypted' then there is no form of DRM that actually exists anywhere and will likely ever exist because it's not likely it is possible for anything to meet your criteria.

Any sort of 'FOSS' DRM is going to behave exactly the same. You can have a system that controls access to content on networks and controls how it's decrypted and such things and be entirely open source, but the only way you can control how things are used once it's ready to be 'consumed' is through hiding how a system functions and hoping your customers will not be allowed access to circumventions. Such a system is antithetical to free software/open source.

> Being the first to publish something on LBRY does not imply that you are the original creator and/or the holder of the copyrights

You can say the same thing about publishing articles in a newspaper or putting a movie on a blueray disk or anything else. Just because you are first to publish doesn't mean you have the legal right to publish it. Whether or not you have the right to publish anything via a 'DRM' system really doesn't enter into it anywhere.

> Anyway, the real threat (as perceived by the pro-DRM crowd) is less that the same content will be republished on LBRY under a different name, and more that once it's been downloaded from LBRY it can easily be uploaded *anywhere*.

The REAL purpose of DRM is so publishing industries can control distribution.

The publishing industry for any type of media; whether it's radio, tv shows, movies, or music or even pictures is obsoleted by the internet.

The purpose for these companies is to provide a means for customers to gain access to art, knowledge, and entertainment. Prior to the internet the capital expenditure required for 'content creators' to reach a wide audience was so high that publishers/record labels/studios/etc would essentially force artists and other people to sign over their copyrights in exchange for payments extracted from their distribution networks. Advertising artists, maintaining relationships with store fronts, running studios, hiring engineers, backup bands, and running the factories necessary to produce media on large scale was something that no individual or small group of people could afford on their own.

Now the bulk of necessity for these industrialists is essentially gone. There are purposes for them, but the internet changed the power dynamic significantly between customers, artists, and publishers. Having a pool of massive capital to maintain and large business overhead is increasingly a liability, not a asset.

So that is where DRM comes in.

Cable companies, Sony, or Apple or whoever else controls the DRM controls the ability for the actual 'content creators' to reach a audience. They have the 'keys', more or less. The challenge is getting large numbers of people suckered into depending on their 'poison pill' networks, hardware, and software. Then they can maintain their dominance by controlling the pathway between creators and customers.

So are you going to convince Disney or Turner Broadcast Systems to use LRBY?

Probably not, unless they have absolutely no other choice. But the same thing goes with any other 'standardized' DRM system they don't control.

And remember the subject: Efforts to create open source DRM. If you want a standard open source DRM solution it's going to look and behave a lot like LRBY. That is about as effective as it can get.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 2:49 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> The REAL purpose of DRM is so publishing industries can control distribution.
You can publish your book by setting up a web store independent of any big players. BTW, Amazon allows you to sell books without DRM.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 18:57 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

> > and involves considerably less "management" of digital "rights" than most.
> That's the core function of LRBY, actually. You publish your content on the network and set the requirements a person must meet before they can download it.

Yes, and that isn't DRM. The end result is exactly the same as what a buyer would get from a DRM-free retailer.

> If your definition of 'DRM' must include 'restricts what users can do with it once it's decrypted' then there is no form of DRM that actually exists anywhere and will likely ever exist because it's not likely it is possible for anything to meet your criteria.

Nonsense. This is *exactly* what every current DRM implementation aims to do. DRM is explicitly designed to keep the user from reproducing the content once it's been decrypted, by deferring the decryption to the last possible point just prior to digital-to-analog conversion and making it as inconvenient as possible to obtain high-quality samples of the output after conversion. It's futile, of course, but then I never claimed that DRM made *sense*.

If your definition of 'DRM' does not include 'restricts what users can do with it once it's decrypted' then all content everywhere is "protected" by "DRM" and the term is rendered so "bland" as to be completely useless.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 21:04 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

What's the purpose of blockchain here and how is it different from Kindle?

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 2:02 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

The blockchain is used by this project to help develop a cryptocurrency based around the publishing content versus a handheld reading device sold by Amazon?

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 11, 2016 2:47 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Which would help how?...

It's kinda fun to watch blockchain projects. It's exactly like stupid "XX but on the INTERNET!!!" patents, only in this case it's "XX but with BLOCKCHAIN!!!"

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 17, 2016 12:45 UTC (Mon) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>I think, personally, that if people can afford to pay for content they will generally do so if it's convenience. Besides ethical problems with most malicious DRM schemes what they do is make their content more difficult and unpleasant for users to use then just downloading it illegally

As Gabe Newell said five years ago: "Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem".

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 7, 2016 21:12 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (10 responses)

The more a DRM implementation is obnoxious for the users, the more it costs the distributors, because users will look for alternatives, so it does make a difference.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 7, 2016 23:06 UTC (Fri) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (9 responses)

Since DRM is always obnoxious for users, the best solution might be to convince web developers all over the world to just start using it for any mundane website. That will encourage the quick development of DRM-circumvention tools, so it becomes completely irrelevant.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 6:27 UTC (Sat) by Garak (guest, #99377) [Link] (5 responses)

<blockquote>That will encourage the quick development of DRM-circumvention tools,</blockquote>

Curnc pnzpbeqref ner arng. Dbag or n dhnyvgl fabo ;)

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 15:31 UTC (Sat) by SEJeff (guest, #51588) [Link] (4 responses)

rot13 does not a good drm make :)

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 13, 2016 12:47 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (3 responses)

Particularly not when you mess up the rot13 and forget to rot the uppercase letters :P

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 13, 2016 21:32 UTC (Thu) by SEJeff (guest, #51588) [Link]

I was trying to be nice. This is lwn, not hacker news :)

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 14, 2016 19:22 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (1 responses)

I've always rot'd with tr since I can't remember any of the other commands.

echo gur frperg | tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 15, 2016 11:32 UTC (Sat) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Vim has the g? command (normal mode) which is how I do rot13.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 9:51 UTC (Sat) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link] (2 responses)

There is a lot of DRM that has not been cracked or has taken really long to crack. The Sega Saturn DRM lasted 21 years for example.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 16:36 UTC (Sat) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (1 responses)

That's nothing to do with DRM; Sega's consoles didn't even have anti-CD-R copy prevention measures. The Saturn has been impenetrable for so long because its hardware resembles Threaded INTERCAL.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 12:50 UTC (Mon) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link]

And who says security via obscurity doesn't work...

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 13:35 UTC (Sat) by Karellen (subscriber, #67644) [Link] (5 responses)

I have a bunch of responses to this, but mostly because other people, smarther than I, said those things first on HN's discussion the other day. So I'm going to quote directly with attribution.

"Let's not perpetuate it, or make it any easier. Let a hundred competing "standards" bloom so media companies have more work to do, and might decide that DRM seems like too much trouble and decreases their target audience. Let browsers prune away support for DRM with their outdated plugin interfaces."
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12660995

"The point is to make DRM-afflicted content into as bad a product as possible. Having a standard for DRM is only a good thing if those against it have already admitted defeat."
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12659280

"If you standardize it, you legitimize it."
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12659867

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 18:31 UTC (Sat) by dpquigl (guest, #52852) [Link] (2 responses)

The problem is and has been seen time and time again where a standards body does not step in and ensure standard behavior the market will deliver it anyway. Many of the IETF standards started through defacto standardization of a protocol or feature that a group of industry partners got together and implemented. So sure this will make it harder but it will by no standard limit the scope of DRM. I guarantee if this happens you'll see an industry group of Microsoft, Sony, MPAA, and other media related companies come together and make their own standard for DRM on the web and implement it.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 19:27 UTC (Sat) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (1 responses)

Why now and not ten years ago ?
Especially now that MS has lost control of the browser market ?

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 8, 2016 21:19 UTC (Sat) by dpquigl (guest, #52852) [Link]

Because the market is completely different from 10 years ago. The most successful platform for PC video game sales steam has made DRM ubiquitous and easy to use and near zero hassle. People don't watch TV on cable anymore they watch it on netflix, hulu, hbo go, amazon instant video etc.... and if you tell them here with this plugin you can save them offline and watch on a plane etc they will love it. Youtube is doing this with youtube red etc. The landscape is completely different. Apple music and Apple video, buying or renting movies on Amazon. 10 years ago Netflix was a DVD delivery service. MS with Windows 10 is leveraging to be your everything entertainment provider so they are going to want to plug into any service possible and if that service can guarantee the rights of their content on a Windows 10 box they will jump through what hoops they have to. Especially if its as zero hassle as Steam is.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 9, 2016 20:11 UTC (Sun) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

So in a couple of years Chrome will be able to use non-standard EMEs and probably Firefox too. All others will be left picking up the pieces and trying to be bug-compatible with Firefox and Chrome.

Oh, and Apple will have their own mutant tentacled DRM baby for Safari only.

Yay. Victory. Not.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 8:25 UTC (Mon) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

> Oh, and Apple will have their own mutant tentacled DRM baby for Safari only.

But they will have that with or without EME, because the DRM bits are not part of the specification.

CDMs don't even have to be runtime loadable or be a system component, they can be implemented right in the browser as far as EME cares.

EME could be considered border-line useful it it at least made sure that any browser could use any CDM on the system, so that users wouldn't have to switch browsers for different content distributors.
Alas, it does not.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 9, 2016 14:53 UTC (Sun) by xylifyx (guest, #29041) [Link] (1 responses)

I believe the main advantage of a standard is cross browser compatibility. Will minor browsers be able to view DRM content? Now Flash is deprecated and using pure web technologies it may not be so simple without a standard.

We end up with a similar browser monopoly as in the IE6 days.

FSF: Tim Berners-Lee just gave us an opening to stop DRM in Web standards

Posted Oct 10, 2016 8:17 UTC (Mon) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

> I believe the main advantage of a standard is cross browser compatibility

In theory, if EME did specify anything useful that would allow browsers to share the DRM implementations.
Alas, it does not.

> Will minor browsers be able to view DRM content

If their vendors are also DRM vendors and can make a case for content distributors to also support their DRM or if the manage to get one of the major DRM vendors to license their DRM.

> Now Flash is deprecated and using pure web technologies it may not be so simple without a standard.

One of the main differences is that Flash was being used through an interface that all browsers could implement.
There is no such interface for the DRM part of this new hot mess, no plugin mechanism that would allow any browser to load and use any CDM (content decryption module).


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