this is sad [LWN.net]

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 0:32 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
In reply to: this is sad by khim
Parent article: Klumpp: A few words about the future of the Limba project

What you said is true for macOS, too. And it's more expensive in purely monetary terms, too. Still it's vastly more popular than Linux.

The important difference here is that for the vast majority of users, Windows or MacOS come preinstalled with the machine. This means that keeping them is essentially “free” while replacing them with Linux carries a considerable cost right there, and most users aren't prepared to pay that cost.

Consequently, as long as that cost is not removed, Linux could have the greatest app store in the world but people would still buy Macs or Windows PCs – not because they are necessarily the best machine for them, but because Macs and PCs today are generally reasonably good, and changing the operating system on one's machine is a hassle that people can just as easily do without.

to post comments

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 3:45 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (28 responses)

It's easy enough to get Linux preinstalled too. The reason so few people are interested in the Linux desktop runs deeper than that.

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 8:07 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (7 responses)

It's easy enough to get Linux preinstalled too.

Here in Germany it isn't – you can't walk into the local white-box electronics store and buy a Linux machine “over the counter” the way you can buy a Windows PC. There are no glitzy high-street shops that sell Linux PCs the way the Apple Store sells Macs. Amazon offers me exactly one computer with pre-installed Linux, and that's a low-spec machine with Linux Mint that has some pretty bad reviews. With diligence you can probably find some specialist outfits that sell reasonable pre-installed Linux PCs on the Internet, but that's not how most people buy their computers. I don't consider that “easy enough”.

The reason so few people are interested in the Linux desktop runs deeper than that.

I support a few friends (non-technical people) who are running Linux on their desktops. They're happy with it – they enjoy the performance, the reliability, and the fact that they don't need to worry about malware. I've been doing this for almost 20 years now and I don't buy the idea that there is something inherent about Linux that turns people off once they have it running properly – at least not more so than with the other popular operating systems.

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 8:47 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

> Here in Germany it isn't – you can't walk into the local white-box electronics store and buy a Linux machine “over the counter” the way you can buy a Windows PC.
Computers (especially laptops) with Linux were popular in Russia back in middle 2000-s. For a very simple reason - they didn't include the price of Windows license. Consequently, the first question of buyers of these computers was: "Can I install Windows on it?"

Pre-installed Linux desktops were tried many times but they have never caught up.

> I support a few friends (non-technical people) who are running Linux on their desktops. They're happy with it – they enjoy the performance, the reliability, and the fact that they don't need to worry about malware.
Are they using anything that's outside of Chromebooks' capabilities?

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 9:06 UTC (Mon) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (5 responses)

Pre-installed Linux desktops were tried many times but they have never caught up.

All the pre-installed Linux desktops I've seen were low-spec machines with weird Linux distributions that were built in a slap-dash way. Even the mainstream vendors that experimented with pre-installed Linux often didn't do a great job on it. No wonder people don't like it. I have yet to meet someone who was presented with a well-installed Linux on good hardware who wanted to replace it with (of all things) Windows.

The real problem is that vendors don't see a lot of gain in providing good pre-installed Linux, because customers don't seem to want it. Customers don't want Linux because they've heard it is different from Windows (which they usually know) and nobody they know has it. And nobody they know has Linux because it isn't sold pre-installed in white-box stores alongside pre-installed Windows PCs and Macs, because vendors don't offer good pre-installed Linux machines. Catch-22.

Are they using anything that's outside of Chromebooks' capabilities?

How would I know? I don't look over their shoulders all the time, and I have no idea what Chromebooks can actually do. For example, can Chromebooks handle multiple displays? Do Chromebooks run Digikam, The GIMP, and Kdenlive? These are things some of my friends use as a matter of course.

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 13:37 UTC (Mon) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link]

My experience too and there was no price difference in laptops ( from those few available with linux pre-installed ) here and those with windows. Then there was a lack of applications compatible ( or just feature compatible ) to what is available on windows outside the standard applications ( email, browser, office simple editor and calculator etc ) as well as hardware incompatibilities and no easy way to do a simple firmware upgrade on the device from vendors and so on.

Those novice end users ( which includes developers ) that atleast switched to Fedora for a brief time to try linux and did not have a joyful experience in doing so left the linux ecosystem entirely ( the complaint from developers not being able to use Fedora was they spent more time setting up their development environment and use manage it than hacking and novice end user did not like the instability in the ui design in Gnome 2 and 3. ). Those end users did not try alternative desktop environment like the KDE version of Fedora ( The entire Fedora brand suffered at the cost of one desktop environment ) or other distributions like Ubuntu or Debian or Mint since from their perspective they had tried "Linux" and it did not work for them and they did just want to go back to the environment they where familiar with ( Windows,Apple ). Arguably it would be better for if those Desktop Environment would release their own release then users could stay with/away from GnomeOS and try kdeEOS, ChromeOS etc. as in those desktop environment brands would suffer the loss ( or success ) of end users directly themselves but it really does not matter since linux desktop will never materialize for novice end user ( outside potentially Android ) when the ecosystem remains so fragmented but only be usable for tinkeres and administrators which I think everyone is aware of except those that are developing desktop environment.

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 17:35 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

> All the pre-installed Linux desktops I've seen were low-spec machines with weird Linux distributions that were built in a slap-dash way.
I've seen all kinds.

> Even the mainstream vendors that experimented with pre-installed Linux often didn't do a great job on it.
Dell is still selling Linux laptops and they actually tried to make them nice (for example, they wrote DKMS for Debian/Ubuntu).

Ultimately, making a Linux PC is not complicated. The fact that it has never attracted more than a trace interest is notable.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 15:28 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (2 responses)

> I've seen all kinds.

Then you are in luck.
I've never seen any other then maybe Netbooks in physical stores and online stores still fail to offer Linux as an OS option.

> Dell is still selling Linux laptops

They started recently with single models for which reports often say that things don't actually work and official blogs telling about workarounds or making promises of updates.
They have yet to actually offer Linux as an option on their machines for customers who buy computers based on requirements.

> The fact that it has never attracted more than a trace interest is notable.

We don't know, since there has never been any attempt in offering Linux as a pre-install option from any of the major vendors.
Only specialized vendors such as ZaReason or System76 do and they don't have widespread presence and only a limited range of models.

So far, whenever I needed to buy a new laptop, none of the vendors who's products met the requirements closely enough to get into the final consideration was able to offer the device without OS, let alone with Linux.

It is great if that is different in the place where you are from.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 21:49 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> They started recently with single models for which reports often say that things don't actually work and official blogs telling about workarounds or making promises of updates.
You mean, 8 years ago is "recently"? And their models are reasonable.

> So far, whenever I needed to buy a new laptop, none of the vendors who's products met the requirements closely enough to get into the final consideration was able to offer the device without OS, let alone with Linux.
Not anymore, after anti-piracy laws got stricter.

"Reports"

Posted Jun 21, 2016 22:31 UTC (Tue) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

Going by "reports", my report is that the 2013 Dell XPS 13 Developer with Ubuntu worked really well for me. Another "report" is that I am right now using a 2015 Dell m3800, which was going to be a Developer model but I didn't want to wait so I bought the Windows 8.1 version and installed Fedora on it. It also works great.

> We don't know, since there has never been any attempt in offering Linux as a pre-install option from any of the major vendors.

Dell seems pretty major to me.

And they have the small laptop (XPS 13) and the big laptop (m3800) with Linux. I am having a hard time imagining requirements that can't be met by one or the other. Maybe price. Neither one is particularly cheap. Optical drives, wired Ethernet, or old weird ports are handled by adapters.

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 10:46 UTC (Mon) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (19 responses)

> It's easy enough to get Linux preinstalled too.

This might depend on country, but I don't think that is true in general.

Aside from what anselm already said about not being available in physical stores, I haven't come across a single vendor's online configurator that would have Linux as one of the OS options.

At best you can get a single specific model with Linux, which you have to find first.

Again, these online shops tend to be artifically country specific, but every time I was shopping for a new laptop over the past 15 years I've never seen Linux as one of the OS options on any significant range of models on either HP's, Sony's, Dell's or Lenovos's configurators in Austria or Germany.

this is sad

Posted Jun 20, 2016 17:35 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (18 responses)

Here's one example: http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-l... It's not quite as bleak as you're saying. Still, I think we can agree that the demand for preinstalled machines is vanishingly small?

I'm just trying to show that the lack of demand for Linux on the Desktop has very little to do with who installs it.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 8:21 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (17 responses)

Well, this is one of the special model options I was referring about, not a general availability of choosing Linux as the operating system in the model configurator.

Also, in the case of Dell, they had very strange artificial limitations on who they would sell this to.
E.g. for a long time they would have such a special model in their German store and not in their Austrian one and deny any shipping from Germany to Austria as well.
How that was legal under the terms of the EU common market is beyond me.

So from my point of view we are far, far away from "easy enough".

> Still, I think we can agree that the demand for preinstalled machines is vanishingly small?

I don't understand how you can say that.
The staggering majority of people buy preinstalled machines, I only know a handful of people who have installed e.g. a different Windows than they bought a PC with.

Also, if the demand for preinstalled machines were vanishingly small as you think, wouldn't that imply that the majority of systems would be offered and bought without anything preinstalled?

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 9:53 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link] (16 responses)

>> Still, I think we can agree that the demand for preinstalled machines is vanishingly small?
>I don't understand how you can say that.
>The staggering majority of people buy preinstalled machines, I only know a handful of people who have installed e.g. a different Windows than they bought a PC with.

I think the GP meant preinstalled *with Linux*.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 10:50 UTC (Tue) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link] (12 responses)

We can't really say a lot about demand for preinstalled Linux, other than that if there is demand it is apparently not communicated well enough to computer manufacturers, or computer manufacturers do not think it is worth their while to respond to whatever demand there is.

I don't think there's active “demand” for Windows or MacOS in any real sense, either, to a point where people walk into a computer store and ask for any computer as long as it comes with Windows, and not one of those nasty Macs. Few people buy a computer from Dell or Acer or Lenovo specifically because it comes with Windows – instead they buy a computer because in the first instance they want a computer, and whatever operating system it comes with is mostly incidental. Conversely, many people buy a Mac because they like the sleek hardware and the way it is marketed as the creative person's computer (as opposed to the boring office-supply type computer that everybody else is selling) and possibly also the operating system, not specifically because they're in love with MacOS and the Mac is (unfortunately) the only computer it will run on. How little many people care about what operating system their computer is running is also evidenced by the fact that they tend not to upgrade the operating system that their computer came with – note how Microsoft needs to practically drag many people kicking and screaming into allowing Windows 10 to be installed on their machines.

Linux's problem in this setup is simply that few people know about it to the point where they want it on their computer, and of the people who do, most are happy to install it themselves (if only so they get to pick the particular flavour of Linux they end up with). Therefore there is little incentive for manufacturers to go to the considerable trouble and expense of actually spec'ing a computer that contains only Linux-friendly hardware, getting that built, getting a version of Linux with the right drivers together, putting that on the computers (where otherwise the hard disks would come from the hard disk factory with Windows already on them), training sales reps and service and support staff, and so on. Next comes the uphill battle of convincing people that they actually want this particular machine with preinstalled Ubuntu when of the prospective clientele 20% would really prefer Debian and 30% would really prefer Fedora, and those wouldn't touch a Ubuntu preinstall with a long pole as a matter of principle – they could of course install whatever they liked after the fact but then why bother to buy preinstalled? (There is the added complication that due to all this extra work the Linux machine will probably end up being more expensive than the one with Windows, which for a good-quality Linux preinstall wouldn't be a huge problem but would p*ss off all those people who think Linux, being much-hyped “free software”, ought to be free, as in beer, and so the Linux PC ought to be cheaper than its Windows equivalent. – The latter theory leads us to Cyberax's Russia where people would buy a “Linux” PC because it was cheaper than one that came with Windows, and then install a copy of Windows that fell off the back of a truck somewhere.)

It's reasonable to assume that the demand for Linux would be a lot greater if (a) people weren't preconditioned to expect Windows, (b) people were actually in a position to choose between Windows and Linux versions of the same basic hardware, on a spectrum of low-end to high-end machines, and (c) some entity proselytised for Linux to the same degree that Microsoft proselytises for Windows. This seems to work for Playstation vs. Xbox and various other market segments, but unfortunately it is not how the PC world rolls – not because Linux isn't good enough, but because Microsoft had a ten-year headstart in the late 1980s and early 1990s where it was basically the only game in town, and now it is difficult to dislodge. (In the game-console market, Microsoft started as a complete non-entity but managed to butt in only because they didn't need to make money on the Xbox.)

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 11:45 UTC (Tue) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] (1 responses)

It is worth than that. My university procurement rules means that I have the choice between 3 laptops designed to run windows that are completely linux-hostile or to insist on using Mac OS and somehow be waived the procurement rules and be allowed to buy any Apple laptop.

So the users that are running linux on the lab desktop, get a poor experience with linux on their windows laptop and next time pick a Macbook.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 15:33 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

If the Windows laptop options are significantly Linux-hostile, it might be worth checking if the allowed Apple laptops are less Linux-hostile.

While Apple hardware can also be difficult, it might actually be easier depending on how bad the Windows laptop hardware is

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 11:45 UTC (Tue) by hitmark (guest, #34609) [Link] (9 responses)

The Windows 10 thing has less to do with fear of upgrading, and more to do with people confusing telemetry with spying.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 15:44 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

And if I have to pay for internet access by the megabyte?

WHY do I have to have a computer that *insists* on phoning home and racking up bills, when I see absolutely no use whatsoever for the (lack of) value generated.

Cheers,
Wol

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 16:17 UTC (Tue) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link] (7 responses)

>WHY do I have to have a computer that *insists* on phoning home and racking up bills, when I see absolutely no use whatsoever for the (lack of) value generated.

If you have no use for those features, you might consider turning them off? As a Linux user, I'm sure you're used to the idea of changing the default settings to ones that you prefer.

[There are certain bits of telemetry that can't be turned off if you're using a Windows Insider build, since the entire purpose of those is to gather feedback.]

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 21:32 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

You can not turn off updates in Windows 10. Let me repeat, you can NOT turn off updates. It can be done through undocumented registry tweaks, but not through user interface.

Windows 10 tries to guess if you're on a metered connection by checking your IP address and doing a tracert (bypassing active VPN, but what's a security violation between friends?) to see if you're inside a mobile network. It usually works but sometimes it doesn't, for example when you're using VPN from your 4G-enabled OpenWRT box.

this is sad

Posted Jun 22, 2016 6:09 UTC (Wed) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm sure they're first using more standard method, like watching for ANDROID_METERED (and equivalents for other OSes) stuffed into DHCP options.

this is sad

Posted Jun 22, 2016 6:12 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Probably. Except I set up this access point myself on OpenWRT. And then a couple of Windows VMs easily ate my month's traffic allowance.

Grr..

BTW, thanks for the tip, I'll add this option to my config.

this is sad

Posted Jun 22, 2016 10:45 UTC (Wed) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link] (3 responses)

>You can not [easily] turn off updates in Windows 10.

Good. It shouldn't be possible for a clueless user to shoot themselves in the foot by doing something that's such a monumentally bad idea, but the option is available for people who seriously know what they're doing.

>Let me repeat, you can NOT turn off updates. It can be done through undocumented registry tweaks, but not through user interface.

It can be done via Group Policy, which is the standard UI for administrative settings that aren't appropriate for most users. For the home edition, I believe you can't use Group Policy but have to edit the registry directly - Group Policy is to a large extent a graphical front end for the registry that explains the settings and their available options (actually this is the case for much of the contents of Settings and the Control Panel). So using the home edition, you'd need to find documentation online on how to do this.

>Windows 10 tries to guess if you're on a metered connection by checking your IP address and doing a tracert (bypassing active VPN, but what's a security violation between friends?) to see if you're inside a mobile network

No, the option to choose whether a connection is metered is up to the user. By default it's a toggle that can only be set for wireless networks, though there are ways to set it for a wired connection that aren't exposed to the UI (and I think I remember reading that it was becoming standard in the next release, but I could be wrong about that). I agree that it's silly to make the assumption that wired connections won't be metered, but that's a very separate issue.

You might be thinking of Windows 10 Mobile? I've not used that so I don't know how it differs, but I can't find any reference to the behaviour you describe.

I find it so enervating seeing the endless array of baseless FUD on LWN. I wish I could just let go and accept that most of the things people say here are clueless and misleading and that's the way it will always be, but some part of me can't let go of the idea that if just one person can be prevented from unknowingly seeing and believing some falsehood then it will be worth the effort.

this is sad

Posted Jun 22, 2016 17:15 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

> It can be done via Group Policy, which is the standard UI for administrative settings that aren't appropriate for most users.
GP now requires Enterprise versions that is not even sold to mere users.

> I find it so enervating seeing the endless array of baseless FUD on LWN.
What, unturnable updates are FUD?

Nope, Win10 is now firmly in "crapware and spyware" land.

this is sad

Posted Jun 23, 2016 10:33 UTC (Thu) by nye (guest, #51576) [Link]

>GP now requires Enterprise versions that is not even sold to mere users.

Yet again, this is not true. Where did you get this idea? Even a cursory Google search would have disproved this.

>What, unturnable updates are FUD?

You keep saying things that are blatantly untrue on a topic you clearly have absolutely no knowledge of at all.
Would you behave this way on a forum where there's a reasonable chance of finding knowledgeable people, or do you just do it here because you expect there won't be anyone with enough experience to call you on your bullshit?

Are there in fact any topics you do know anything about? I've read numerous posts from you on topics that I know little about, that seem informative and with no reason to disbelieve them. Now though I'm wondering if they just seem that way because I don't know enough about the subject to recognise when somebody is making up nonsense, so everything you say has to be treated as probably untrue unless carefully verified.

this is sad

Posted Jun 23, 2016 17:13 UTC (Thu) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

Windows 10 updates cannot be ignored forever. This is true.

If you have Pro or Enterprise they can be deferred. They can be scheduled.

They cannot be ignored.

This is a FEATURE and I support it totally. I never want to see another Windows 7 laptop used for meeting room video conferences and presentations with 66 pending Critical and Required updates.

If you don't want them installing automatically in the middle of your work then PAY ATTENTION to the popup dialog and say when you want them done. No, you can't keep pushing it off four hours at a time, and if you try they will install anyway. That's on you.

If you don't want updates and you claim you don't need them then don't connect a Windows system to the internet. Now you're safe from updates and security holes.

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 11:13 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (2 responses)

> I think the GP meant preinstalled *with Linux*.

I considered that but then the sentence would make even less sense.

How would be agree that the demand for preinstalled Linuxsystems is vanishingly small if there are no suitable options?

Would you agree that the demand for breathable air is vanishingly small based on only medical, diving and space equipment vendors selling it?

Or agree that there is no demand for colored cars based on Ford selling their Model-T only in black?

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 15:51 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

"I'm getting really fed up telling all these people that there's no demand for linux pre-installs. You're the tenth person I've had to tell today!"

If you tell demand by recording sales, of course there's no demand if nobody can find what they're looking for!

Cheers,
Wol

this is sad

Posted Jun 21, 2016 16:55 UTC (Tue) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link]

Exactly!
Or if you make it impossible to order even if you find it, like in the case of Dell in Europe.