OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released [LWN.net]

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 15:50 UTC (Fri) by mmonaco (guest, #84041) [Link] (11 responses)

The TP-Link Archer C7 is well supported and is a popular choice for OpenWRT. Last I checked it's the nicest model that TP-Link offers that has an Atheros/Qualcomm chipset. The more expensive models use Broadcom and are not well supported by OpenWRT, but the only major feature the Broadcom models have is beam forming which is not useful to many people. I've been very happy with it -- it's been stable with four 2.5 GHz and three 5.0 GHz SSIDs. It's also pretty cheap.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 16:32 UTC (Fri) by michel (guest, #10186) [Link] (7 responses)

Thanks, that's very helpful. Do you happen to know if it has TTY access on the board? That's sometimes helpful when messing around with custom builds, etc. However, how would I have known about this? Days of browsing through their forums and their web pages seems to not help too much for a seemingly basic question like that. Hence, my frustration.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 17:12 UTC (Fri) by lamawithonel (subscriber, #86149) [Link] (5 responses)

http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wdr7500#serial

I find the OpenWRT wiki pages are one of the best resources for pre and post-purchase research. The index page organizes them into "supported," "unsupported," and "work in progress." And if a "supported" router has a good page like the Archer C7, it's a good sign it will work well without much hassle. Read through the pages, though. As with any project of this breadth, there are known problems.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 16, 2015 6:25 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (4 responses)

The OpenWrt wiki is awesome. I bought a TP-Link TL-WR1043N thanks to it and everything worked out of the box. Maybe because TP-Link bases their own software on openWRT? The only exception was a one-line fix in some obscure config or script file for a 3G USB dongle, and this was years ago. Using 3G was generally not even possible with other products at that time.

While OpenWrt is awesome, I also doubt it will last long once it becomes easy to find a embedded system under $100 with Wifi and the ability to run a standard Linux distribution. There's a price point under which "twice cheaper" stops mattering.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 8:16 UTC (Thu) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (1 responses)

> While OpenWrt is awesome, I also doubt it will last long once it becomes easy to find a embedded system under $100 with Wifi and the ability to run a standard Linux distribution. There's a price point under which "twice cheaper" stops mattering.

Sure. Do you also expect your "generic embedded system with Wifi" to have:

1. 4 or 5 gigabit ethernet ports?
(don't know about you but I have plenty of use for them)

2. WiFi radio capabilities that match those of a dedicated router?
(I need multiple routers to have full coverage in my whole house)

3. ?make ice cream?
(I love ice cream too!)

Do you also expect Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu/etc to become as easy to use, configure and optimize as a router as OpenWrt? Seriously?
The most expensive thing in my home network setup was the time I spent setting it up, not the hardware.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 16:25 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> 4 or 5 gigabit ethernet ports?

Would be happy to use a dedicated hardware switch if I needed too. It's now cheap and small, I mean small compared to the cables themselves anyway.

> WiFi radio capabilities that match those of a dedicated router?

Good question! I assumed many interfaces are on par with dedicated routers since... "dedicated routers" tend to use the same drivers anyway? Am I wrong?
https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/users/drivers

> Do you also expect Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu/etc to become as easy to use, configure and optimize as a router as OpenWrt? Seriously?

Yes, and no. I expect people who currently spend their precious time working hard and giving us OpenWrt for free to eventually redirect their effort to "DebianWrt" = yet another Debian derivative pre-configured and optimized for this job. The idea is the same: more software re-use, less maintenance, more security updates, and less... "cute embedded nonsense [build] hacks" ;-)

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 8:23 UTC (Thu) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (1 responses)

> Maybe because TP-Link bases their own software on openWRT?

I believe most of the vendors base their firmware on OpenWRT. In practice, the real deal breaker for OpenWrt support *without blobs* is the chipset support. If it is an Atheros chipset, there are good odds that it will be supported. If it is Broadcom or Marvell, it will (normally) not be supported. (This is an oversimplification, but you get my point).

For instance the TP-Link Archer C5 v1.2 is Atheros based and has full support. Now the updated version of it, TP-Link Archer C5 v2.0, is Broadcom based and unsupported.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Oct 9, 2015 23:37 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

It seems likely that the vendors will be seriously annoyed if OpenWRT becomes illegal to install, then, because they're relying on it for free development work.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 8:03 UTC (Thu) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

Two points:

1. I second the Archer recommendation. I own an Archer C5 v1.2, which is (as far as people have been able to tell) the same hardware as the C7 but with software limitations on the original firmware. It sells cheaper than the C7. Notice you cannot use the Archer C5 v2.0.

2. No idea how you managed to miss this recommendation. To the best of my knowledge the Archer C7/C5v.1.2 was the only router considered stable with N support, it is quoted as such in the forums very often.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 15, 2015 9:12 UTC (Tue) by rmayr (subscriber, #16880) [Link]

We have now ordered a Zyxel NBG6716 (http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/zyxel/zyxel_nbg6716) because of the large flash. I cannot yet say how well it is really supported by OpenWrt without tinkering, but it looks promising (and arrived today, so we may have some more experience in the next few weeks).

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 15:15 UTC (Thu) by pj (subscriber, #4506) [Link] (1 responses)

How's that? http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wdr7500 says that 5.0GHz isn't supported ?

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 18, 2015 19:34 UTC (Fri) by lsl (subscriber, #86508) [Link]

Where does it say that? For the Archer C7, I think you're supposed to use the v2.0 revision. The page says that 5 GHz WiFi is not supported on the C7 v1.x and the WDR7500 (== C7R) v2.x, but is on the C7 v2.0.

From the link:
> The Archer C7 v2.x uses the BR4A (v2) variant which is supported in ath10k.

Gotta love router vendors and their cute naming schemes.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 17:40 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

NetGear now markets a line of routers specifically designed for OpenSource. They work perfectly fine, in my experience.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 18:56 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (5 responses)

which line are you thinking of?

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 12, 2015 2:57 UTC (Sat) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (4 responses)

I don't know if they were designed for it, but the wndr line (specifically those which cerowrt supports due to having free firmware as well) work wonderfully. Just updated mine (3700v2) today.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 13, 2015 22:14 UTC (Sun) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

That line works well, but is rather old now.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 16:30 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

Did you mean "old" as in: "stable and working out of the box perfectly", or something else? :-)

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 20:02 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

I define "old" as "not manufactured any longer"

the WNDR3700 was at v4 the last time I looked (a couple years ago), so talking about the v2 even at that time was old. There were a couple years there where none of the wndr3700 devices that were being manufactured were usable with OpenWRT because of the change in flash. That has been fixed in the last year or so (I don't know if it made it in to BB, but it was in the available source for compiling your own image, and is in CC)

If a device cannot be purchased new from the manufacturer, I call it "old"

"Old" devices can still be used, and I'm about to buy 60 "old" devices to support an upcoming conference. But I would not point at them as the first choice, but only as a last chance.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 18, 2015 19:49 UTC (Fri) by lsl (subscriber, #86508) [Link]

Like dlang wrote, the issue is getting hold of one of those stable and nicely working devices. When I tried to get a 3700v2, I was sent a later version (I think it was a v4) at the first try, even though it was described as v2 when ordering. Thankfully, I got a 3800 in the end, and at a reasonable price. They used to appear on Amazon from time to time but only in low quantities.

So yeah, if you already have one of those, they're super-awesome. But when it's basically impossible to buy them, recommending them to potential buyers is not that useful.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 18:02 UTC (Fri) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (16 responses)

I have the same problem. I'm increasingly tempted to make my next router a relatively cheap system with a pair of Ethernet ports, a wifi card capable of access-point mode and a large external antenna, and a full installation of Debian.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 12, 2015 14:02 UTC (Sat) by Lennie (subscriber, #49641) [Link]

I used to run a Soekirs machine for my Internet connection, but it only support 100 Mbit and my provider upgrades my line to 120 Mbit and it was causing problems. So now I have a newer device. Never had any problems with the Soekris machine, it's still running as a webserver.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 14, 2015 16:57 UTC (Mon) by smckay (guest, #103253) [Link] (11 responses)

I did this, and in general it works very well. Having a full system makes it much easier to set up weird things like SSL interception with Squid. However, mDNS doesn't work quite right. I have the LAN port & 2 APs bridged together, and AFAICT the wifi cards don't like frames with spoofed MAC addresses, which is what bridged mDNS packets look like to the firmware. So if I may make a suggestion, it would be to leave each local interface on its own subnet and let avahi-daemon do the mDNS bridging. Other than that, I'm very happy with my router that can be administered properly and isn't a tiny box full of who-knows-what janky hardware with barely enough power to both store and forward.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 16, 2015 6:37 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (10 responses)

> and AFAICT the wifi cards don't like frames with spoofed MAC addresses, which is what bridged mDNS packets look like to the firmware.

Could you elaborate? For instance are you referring to the wifi cards acting as APs or to the other, station ones? You wrote "spoofed"; does that mean the wifi firmware is looking at IP addresses? Sorry I'm confused.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 16, 2015 12:47 UTC (Wed) by smckay (guest, #103253) [Link] (9 responses)

Sorry, I forgot that the "wifi card firmware is at fault" hypothesis was just a hypothesis. What I observed with tcpdump was that mDNS works fine within a LAN segment, but mDNS answers got mangled crossing the bridge from one AP to the other. The source IP would be changed to the bridge's IP and the source port would be seemingly random. Looking at the chain of receiving card -> br0 -> transmitting card, I can only see the transmitting card as being motivated to change the packet.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 16, 2015 16:53 UTC (Wed) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (8 responses)

Bridging multicast, which brings with it the need to inspect IGMP, is more complicated than just unicast and broadcast but in your description it sounds more like the bridge is also running an mDNS daemon, such as Avahi, which may not be configured correctly to work on a bridge instead of an endpoint host.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 16, 2015 23:08 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

> Bridging multicast, which brings with it the need to inspect IGMP, is more complicated than just unicast and broadcast

It's only an issue for expensive, "enterprise" switches trying to be smart and optimize for large networks. Cheaper and simpler switches just broadcast multicast frames.

> it sounds more like the bridge is also running an mDNS daemon, such as Avahi, which may not be configured correctly to work on a bridge instead of an endpoint host.

By essence shouldn't software running on a software bridge not be aware of any bridging going on and see a single (bridge) interface? The real interfaces would normally not even have any IP configuration.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 3:19 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (guest, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

Linux can do all sorts of things and you can still interact with the bridge member interfaces as well as the bridge virtual interface as far as I can tell, I just tested adding an IP and pinging a bridge member interface and it seemed to work. Linux packet forwarding, even before we get to OpenVSwitch, is complicated.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Netfi...

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 6:09 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

I have no doubt you can do complicated things. I don't think you have to in such a relatively simple use case.

On the other hand I never found the bridge configuration super intuitive so I guess it's easy enough to make things artificially complicated by mistake.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 14:28 UTC (Thu) by smckay (guest, #103253) [Link] (4 responses)

I tried turning off avahi-daemon on the router--same behavior. Multicast packets crossing from one AP to the other have their source address changed to the router's. Some misconfiguration, maybe. It's not a huge deal, but this bridge is misbehaving and refusing to tell me whty--it's like learning vi all over again.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 16:12 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (3 responses)

The source address & port changes you described sound more like NAT than bridging.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 16:24 UTC (Thu) by smckay (guest, #103253) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah, they do, which might make a little bit of sense if multicasts were also being sent out the WAN port, but they aren't.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 17:54 UTC (Thu) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (1 responses)

Perhaps the NAT rules for the WAN port are erroneously being applied to packets traversing the bridge? IIRC the decision of whether to mangle a packet for NAT is separate from the decision to route the packet out over any particular interface, and if you have multiple interfaces you need to include a condition (e.g. in my case it's "-A POSTROUTING -t nat -s $LOCAL_IP_RANGE -o $WAN_DEV -j MASQUERADE") to prevent NATing of internal packets. If the "-o $WAN_DEV" condition were omitted it could cause the symptoms you're seeing.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 18:23 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

The easiest to troubleshoot bridging is to temporarily iptables --flush and see whether the problem still happens or not.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 8:27 UTC (Thu) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

Consider buying one of the supported editions of the Archer C7/C5 http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wdr7500

They have been a very popular choice for OpenWrt.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 21, 2015 11:12 UTC (Mon) by mstone_ (subscriber, #66309) [Link] (1 responses)

I suggest just building a router that's a router, and using an access point that's an access point--mixing the two just ends us causing more work in the long term. Routers are well understood and rock solid, while wireless drivers are always either unstable, buggy, or obsolescent; there's no up side to screwing up the router/firewall with wifi.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 22, 2015 8:09 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

what? you mean you don't want a router/firewall between your wifi and your sired network?

your wifi device has a constant speed wired network on one side and a variable speed wireless network on the other side. that takes a lot of smarts to handle (and arguably, nothing currently handles it right)

wifi drivers are a problem, but so are the drivers for the DSL/Cable/Fiber interfaces (you don't think that they are normal ethernet do you?)

Also, since many people don't have any wired devices, why add the additional failure points of having two devices instead of one?

The cost of adding wired router functionality to a wifi device is really low. A stand-alone 5 port switch sells for <$40 retail with the need for a separate case, power supply, stock number packaging, shipping,e tc. how much do you think it costs to add the switch chip and ethernet jacks to a wifi systems? I'll bet it's somewhere in the low single digital $ range, and wouldn't be surprised if it's <$1

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 18:55 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

A lot of it depends on your requirements.

There is nothing with 802.11ac that really works well right now due to driver issues

a couple years ago as the vendors went to NAND flash, there was a gap in support for the new devices, but they are basically all supported.

There isn't anything current with a DSL interface that's supported (afaik)

But if you can live without a DSL interface and -ac, there's a lot available.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 20:15 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

I'm using Linksys WRT1900AC, it works perfectly with OpenWRT.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 21:10 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

be aware of bugs #20 and #21, there are driver problems that cause it to lock up sometimes (it seems especially when working with Apple devices on 5GHz, but not exclusively)

the development thread for these APS has hit 300 pages now https://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?pid=291342#p291342

I'd agree that this and the wrt1200ac are probably the closest to good for the -ac routers, but there are still driver problems that are hard to fix without cooperation of the manufacturer.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 11, 2015 23:59 UTC (Fri) by fghorow (subscriber, #5229) [Link]

Lantiq chipset *DSL does work under OpenWRT, but it takes some effort. I'm currently running a TP-Link TD-W8970 <http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/td-w8970> as my DSL box, mostly so I can use fq-codel directly on the slow link. Be sure to get the correct VDSL binary so that you get the correct Annex type for your external DSL provider.

Good luck!

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 12, 2015 4:46 UTC (Sat) by gwolf (subscriber, #14632) [Link]

I use stock OpenWRT 15.05RC3 with a couple of Raspberry Pi project. Much better suited to my needs than Raspbian.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 12, 2015 11:21 UTC (Sat) by asjo (guest, #56570) [Link]

I am using a TP-Link TL-WDR4300 v1 with OpenWRT (Barrier Breaker, currently), which just worked from day 1.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 13, 2015 17:27 UTC (Sun) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link] (1 responses)

It depends on the definition of old. Old can also equal to rock stable, new often equals to not-so-stable even on vendor tweaked firmwares.

I'm very happy with http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/netgear/wndr3800 - using for 40MHz 5GHz, but I'm generally satisfied with ~100Mbit/s wifi-to-wifi device speeds.

Also, ac is not the panacea for wifi. In practical terms, it's much more complicated, and ac doesn't have that much that isn't at least optional on n on the spec level. The speed benefits in normal use cases like person's home are often theoretical.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 14, 2015 8:29 UTC (Mon) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link]

> The speed benefits in normal use cases like person's home are often theoretical.

The practical benefits in my experience could be negative. A Linksys router bought in spring 2014 worked slower with ac than with n against a macbook and a Linux laptop with Intel wifi card. That was with either stock firmware or later updates. Finally I got ASUS RT-AC66U that really showed a difference with ac and where I could install dd-wrt. Still even with that I had to install an external directional antenna so backing up video files from SD cards to a home server over WiFi would be just a little bit slower than copping to a local notebook drive.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 15, 2015 12:48 UTC (Tue) by bcopeland (subscriber, #51750) [Link]

One option is to get a small SBC like these APU boards, and populate them with appropriate mini-PCIe wireless cards: http://www.pcengines.ch/apu1d.htm

That said, it's really hard to beat the TP-Link Archer C7 on price. I've been quite happy with these: I have four of them. OpenWRT works fine and serial requires minimal soldering skills to install. If going that route, be sure to get v2; I believe ath10k has some problems with version 1.

OpenWrt "Chaos Calmer" 15.05 released

Posted Sep 17, 2015 7:01 UTC (Thu) by bgmarete (guest, #47484) [Link]

Been using a TP-Link WDR-3600 with Barrier Breaker for a year with no problems whatever. I just upgraded it to Chaos Calmer and I have had no problems with that either. What is more, the router is extremely cheap, just a little bit more than $50. It actually cost me more to ship it to my location.