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Why switch to Fedora?

By Jake Edge
May 13, 2015

Fedora, like other distributions, has often struggled with how to attract new users. It is not always clear what the "pain points" are for new Fedora users, nor what it might take to get users to switch. A recent discussion on the Fedora desktop mailing list highlights some of those issues.

In an April blog post, Christian Schaller noted that a review of GNOME 3.16 was, in some sense, really a review of Fedora Workstation. The review reflected a lot of work the distribution has done to integrate GNOME into the Workstation product, resulting in what Schaller called "a tightly vertically integrated and tested system from the kernel up to core desktop applications". He was disappointed that the reviewer was awaiting GNOME 3.16's appearance in Ubuntu, rather than continuing on with Fedora, so he asked for feedback from blog readers on what it might take to get people to switch to Fedora.

He then summarized those responses in a post to the desktop list on May 7. Some of the responses are something of recurring themes for complaints heard about Fedora: its release cadence, lack of third-party software (including media codecs, drivers, and applications), and pain caused by SELinux. Several of the others were graphics related, including support for NVIDIA Optimus hardware, high-DPI display problems, and multi-monitor support. The rest were a grab bag of user annoyances: lack of a UI for Fedora upgrades, the need for better Android integration, no solution for backups, and the need for a handful of packages that aren't currently available for Fedora.

The third-party software issue occupied much of the thread. The lack of royalty-encumbered codecs (e.g. MP3 for music and H.264 for video) for Fedora is a common complaint about the distribution, especially from less-technical users. Developers are the target users for Fedora Workstation, though, so they may well be able to find Fedora's list of forbidden items as well as information on third-party repositories (which do have solutions for many things that Fedora can't distribute).

Those repositories may suffer from security problems, however, as Elad Alfassa pointed out. In addition, the availability of those repositories doesn't solve all these problems by any means:

[...] drivers are even a bigger mess. How is a user supposed to download a wifi driver when their wifi is not working? Keep in mind that many newer laptops don't have an [ethernet] port at all. If you have a broadcom wireless chip and no ethernet port, you'll need a second device, or a second OS, to find out how to get the driver and how to install it. And if you have a different OS that already works, and Fedora requires you to either replace your wifi chip or figure out the magic command lines to install a driver, why would you make the switch?

Basically, the more time a person needs to spend on learning how to make your OS work the less they'd want to make the switch.

For codecs, though, it would be possible for someone (e.g. Red Hat) to license them for Fedora, as "drago01" noted. Beyond the unlikelihood of any organization actually doing that, there is another problem: the license would not necessarily apply for downstream Fedora remixes. Those distributions would either have to remove the codecs or license them too—not something the Fedora project wants its downstreams to have to deal with. But Fedora is one of the few distributions that has this particular problem, since most other distributions find some way to install the necessary codecs for users that need them.

The age-old tension between seeing users as participants in free-software development versus users that "just want to get their work done" also played out some in the thread. Because users are (mostly) unwilling to mess with their computers to get them working, they gravitate to Windows and Mac OS X, Alfassa said. And they don't switch away:

And the answer to why people are not switching away from Mac or Windows is simple: Mac OS X and Windows both have one thing in common. They work. They don't require too much fiddling (especially in the case of OS X). WiFi works, music works, video works...

But Michael Catanzaro thinks Fedora should be looking at a different question: why aren't users switching to Fedora Workstation from Ubuntu?

We can't really compete with Mac or Windows because we can't run Mac or Windows apps. We can compete just fine with Ubuntu. I don't see why we shouldn't aim to make Fedora Workstation the #1 GNU/Linux distribution.

The question of cadence and the interest in a "rolling" release also came up a bit in the thread. Edward Borasky noted that he moved to Fedora from openSUSE a few years back, partly due to the eight-month release cycle versus six months for Fedora. So he is happy now with Workstation and, even though he would like a rolling release, he wouldn't return to openSUSE for Tumbleweed. There are lots of good distributions, but he wouldn't switch because "they have no *compelling* advantage and I'd have to spend a couple of weeks getting up to speed on the way *they* do things."

He continued:

They're all fine distros, they all have wonderful communities, they all do a good job of tracking upstream, I can compile unpackaged software on them, I can remix them as long as I don't infringe on trademarks, etc. But they aren't "better" than Fedora and Fedora's not really "better" than they are.

So if you want to take users away from Ubuntu, you need a *compelling* advantage. Fedora Workstation has to make users badass at something meaningful in a way that Ubuntu doesn't.

Another pain point that came out in the thread is the current state of Office 365 support in Workstation. "Alex G.S." argued that one of the main reasons people end up on Macs is because they need access to Microsoft's collaboration tools. They work well with OS X, but have a variety of problems on Fedora. From the list he provided, there would seem to be a fairly large hurdle there.

No real conclusions were drawn in the thread. For the most part, there were not truly any surprises in the comments on Schaller's blog post. These complaints have been heard before (and likely will be again). Other distributions have similar lists, with at least some overlap with Fedora's. It will be interesting to see which of the items the Workstation project tries to tackle—and what progress it makes.



to post comments

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 14, 2015 14:06 UTC (Thu) by jhoblitt (subscriber, #77733) [Link] (10 responses)

I'm not sure if I would characterize Windows and OSX as "they work" from a desktop user perspective when considering the overall ecosystem. These platforms realistically require the addition of a 3rd party package manager (chocolatey and homebrew/fink/macports respectively) for usage much beyond web browsing or document preparation. Neither ships with a working development environment, which on OSX is a prerequisite for using one of the 3rd party packaging systems.

They both seem very primitive compared to the situation on any of the popular Linux distributions. With Fedora there is some required leg work to enable 3rd party yum repos. I typically add virtualbox, mono, hipchat, bluejeans, chrome, google talk, and rpmfusion to a workstation but package management is exceptionally smooth beyond that.

The driver, or lack there of, criticism is valid. Most of the Linux disto hardware support issues I've encountered in past have been with video drivers. Which have been somewhat mitigated since nouveau has become more or less usable. Windows enjoys much better cooperation of the hardware vendors due to scale and OSX is a single vendor vertically integrated hardware/OS platform. My impression is that the situation is largely reversed for server class hardware. It had been quite some time since I've needed to install RAID controller, HBA, high end NIC, or any vendor supplied drivers at all on Linux. My understanding is that the situation in the Windows world hasn't improved much since the days of NT 3.51.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 14, 2015 19:10 UTC (Thu) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Installing 3rd party system is not really a big deal at all for these operating systems.

For most purposes having a integrated package management system on a desktop or laptop is not a high priority. There are other aspects that are more important.

> My understanding is that the situation in the Windows world hasn't improved much since the days of NT 3.51.

That's pretty silly statement.

Regardless if you want to have a easy time installing Linux and gaining good hardware support you need to have the assistance of the larger OEMs like Dell or HP. These people are the ones that ODMs and chipset developers cater to and the larger scale operators have a massive amount of clout while 'whitebox resellers' like System76, XoticPC, and ZaReason have almost no voice in deciding how the hardware gets supported/developed.

However it is pretty obvious at this point that there isn't a huge demand for anybody to purchase consumer-grade hardware from these guys that has Linux pre-installed. These larger OEMs try and apparently there is some nitch they can fill with corporate software developers, but they don't seem to get enough business to warrant Linux latpops. They do seem, however, to be willing to put 'feeler' models out there every once in a while to see how the market will receive them.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 14, 2015 21:36 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (5 responses)

> I'm not sure if I would characterize Windows and OSX as "they work" from a desktop user perspective

I'll bet that if you asked the desktop IT support teams at various companies, they would provide you with all sorts of things that they do to support their Windows and OSX users, and the problems that they continually run into with them.

Unfortunately there aren't as many places that you can ask about desktop support for Linux users. Most Linux users in corporate environments tend to do their own support (and when they do ask for help,, all too frequently the answer boils down to "I don't know, you aren't using Windows")

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 19, 2015 9:39 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (4 responses)

Actually, that's one reason Linux as a Desktop is stuck.

Individual users have already invested in workarounding windows or osx and have no wish to learn another system.

Corporation IT has already invested in workarounding windows or osx and has no wish to learn another system.

Because no matter how you look at it, even if Linux is no worse than the two others, you *will* need to support (either at the individual or company It level) the old and the new system during transition phase. So double your IT support requirements.

To have any chance to succeed the Linux Desktop needs to be pretty much maintenance-free to pass the transition phase. And it's far from that right now. Google only succeeded with Android and chromebooks by taking over maintenance via the google cloud.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 19, 2015 10:46 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (3 responses)

This exactly was being said some years ago about Linux and Windows. Fast forward a few years and now there are Macs everywhere. Why? Because what you say it is not true, or at least, not the whole truth.

Individual users DO learn new systems, if they *perceive* it as a step forward, that is, given enough incentive. Or to put it another way: they _only_ thing that Desktop Linux is lacking is that subtle "something" that makes Macs and Windows machines sell. And that subtle something has a name: Marketing.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 19, 2015 12:13 UTC (Tue) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (2 responses)

Personally I don't see that many Macs this part of the world, possibly due to their prohibitive price (seem to cost more than twice as much as a non-Mac with similar configuration). However, as far as I know, a Mac is necessary if someone wants to develop for iPhone. Maybe that explains.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 19, 2015 16:51 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

Apple makes nice hardware, it's expensive, but if you want a tiny laptop, they are hard to beat.

They were also the "cool" thing to have and so they got a foot in the door in spite of Corp IT folks not wanting to have to deal with them (the same way that iPhones broke the blackberry stranglehold on corp phones)

There are some companies which are still windows-only, but more and more you see macs as first-class options.

This actually helps those of us running Linux, there aren't that many differences between accessing things from a mac vs linux. This helps break the "but it works with windows, you are on your own" attitude, and it also forces Microsoft to make their products work better when the remote system isn't Windows.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 20, 2015 12:00 UTC (Wed) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link]

You also get a better tested and supported product from Apple since they themselves manufacture their own hardware along with their own OS which is supported running only on their hardware and it has not and never will help linux to remove the "your on your own" label due to the plethora of distribution and desktop environments in existent out there.

In the university when I was working there we deployed all three OS on Apple Hardware in labs to allow the students to choose the OS they where familiar ( encase people are wondering OS X and Windows user being preferred choice ).

When we implementing this then a) we had to settle on a single distribution ( the distribution that got chosen was not Fedora due to well know reasons ) b) single DE and only supporting default application with it and the linux distribution that was chosen was the only "supported" Linux distribution on campus so students that ran any other linux distribution with any other DE or even used any other applications than that came with that distributions and had issues with it, they where on their own fixing it ( even thou I do believe the help desk tried to do their best helping them )

I would not be surprised if linux has been removed as an choice from labs after I left since at that time there was discussion taking place if there was enough usage of it to justify the cost of staff maintaining it as an option for students.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 16:16 UTC (Fri) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (2 responses)

as "they work" from a desktop user perspective [...] Neither ships with a working development environment

Believe it or not, there are people other than software developers. I guess most people are in this category. They want to be able to play DVDs and AVIs without going through hoops and somersaults, but don't care about compiling C code. Might even want to play flash games.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 23:52 UTC (Fri) by gerdesj (subscriber, #5446) [Link] (1 responses)

"Might even want to play flash games."

FFS: I threw Win7 off my wife's laptop a while back when the graphics drivers threw a wobbly yet again and I got bored trying to get other things to work on it (I've been a Win sysadmin for decades.) It just works? Ha!

I stuck Arch on it - Ok not your average distro but I use Gentoo personally and didn't want her waiting for Portage n emerge.

*Now* it just works - FarmVille2? no problem for ages. I recently spent four hours on a call from a customer's wife trying to get it working again on her Windows box. Email? Evolution + EWS just works (not pretty though but who cares?) Her weird hidden object games - just works (apart from one) thanks to Wine and winetricks. Those gave me a pretty hard time in Windows as well. Broken(ish) touchscreen? Disable touch so the pointer works again, judicious use of a drill and a small nut and bolt to hold the hinge together and laptop up and running again.

My home support burden is now minimal. It wasn't with MS's offering on there. The only bit of magic I really had to apply in the whole thing was forcing Chrome to enable OpenGL. I could have put Fedora or OpenSuSE or whatever instead but I like rolling release no frills distros - that's just me.

Cheers
Jon

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 21, 2015 12:33 UTC (Thu) by mgedmin (guest, #34497) [Link]

> not pretty though but who cares?

People do. That's why they buy Macs.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 14, 2015 16:10 UTC (Thu) by dowdle (subscriber, #659) [Link]

Yep, these same points happen over and over... going back to the earliest one I remember from ESR. How long ago was that? I'll just rehash what I think are the benefits of being a Fedora user since most of them seemed to have been left out of the blog comments / article.

Fedora will never change. They will continue to refuse to ship things that could get Red Hat sued. Other distros can distribute that stuff because they don't have any money to be taken from them... or they are based outside of the US... or a few more obscure reasons... like not giving a funk. I don't mind that. I can install that stuff myself... although I do avoid proprietary hardware completely so I avoid driver problems.

I'm a long-time Fedora user (on desktops) and will continue to be so. Why? Because of the four Fs - Friends, First, Features, Freedom... and also because their sponsor (Red Hat) helps them work on a ton of stuff that I care about... which helps the entire Linux echosystem. Other distros definitely benefit from all of the work Fedora and Red Hat does... even if Fedora doesn't necessarily get more users because of it. For more info see:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Why_Is_the_Fedora...

I enjoy the fact that by using Fedora I often have the bleeding edge kernel... and when I run into bugs and use their bugzilla... I'm often interacting directly with the developers rather than having them be middle men to upstream. Often Fedora and/or Red Hat is the upstream... and by using Fedora and being an active participant in the bug reporting and resolution process, I'm contributing back... even if it is just a tiny bit.

If Fedora isn't the best distro for people who don't want to contribute and who just want everything done for them... and don't want to learn anything (my analysis not Fedora's)... the so be it. Even if that means less users, I prefer it that way... although occasionally I have hopes that more Linux users will see the value and benefit in being part of Fedora... rather than just a "user". There are definitely a large number of use cases and no one distro is best for everyone... and choice is good. So if something else meets your needs better, use it. For me, no doubt about it... Fedora meets my needs best... even if I have to work at it some.

Contrast this to the Arch Linux "movement" where they make the user do pretty much everything for themselves... with the benefit of somewhat intelligible documentation. Arch may offer a bunch of the Fedora verboten packages but it is still a bunch of work. Oh, that reminds me... there should be a fifth F... Fantastic documentation. Fedora and Red Hat have a ton of comprehensive Guides although I'm not sure all users are aware... and it is hard to keep (the documentation) up-to-date with the rapid development cycle and large feature churn from release to release.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 14, 2015 20:14 UTC (Thu) by misc (subscriber, #73730) [Link]

The more I read, the more I see that as a perception and marketing problem. The Linux/free software user is not perceieved as cool or anything. People use windows because they know, and they take mac because Apple is making them feel good about themself.

There is no positive persona of the Linux user as such, so we are left with what the wider community is perceived since years. For example, our collective taste for unstable/moving distribution is perceived by most people as "this is too complicated" or "this is always broken". ( cf the comments on "I use mac because it just work", which is a huge simplification, because the reason why it work is mostly because it prevent users from fiddling with it, something that anyone who is not root is able to achieve ). I use RHEL 7 on my laptop, and while I would complain on some stuff, hardware not working ( once the hardware is properly supported and certified ) is not a problem I face. When i was running Fedora, the fast path of the distribution did indeed brought issues ( ie, newer wifi stack break stuff, etc ). That's part of the game, and I am glad that we fix stuff fast.

But as long as we are gonna recommend moving distributions without keeping in mind the tradeoff we do when we do that, we will never be able to overcome the perception problem.

People should take a look at the apple website. They manage to convince people that this is simple without telling "good for beginner". They manage to make people feel they are in charge and this is "powerful and UNIX powered" while it is rather outdated and offer very limited stuff on the system level ( and not really up to date regarding anything UNIXy ).

That's how you convince people, either by being present by default ( Microsoft, Android ), or by changing people feeling and perceptions ( Apple ). We can't do the first, but we can at least provides the 2nd ( since Ubuntu did it quite well, with the whole meme of "Linux for human beings", among others )

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 5:12 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link] (11 responses)

I think Ubuntu's popularity stems from being able to offer a stable, consistent desktop computer interface, during a long period when Microsoft was drunk at the wheel and doing the exact opposite. You can give a user with basic computer skills any version of Ubuntu from 5.04 to 14.04 and they'll figure it out without much difficulty.

Normal people hate gratuitous change; Ubuntu caters to them very well.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 16:23 UTC (Fri) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link] (2 responses)

You can give a user with basic computer skills any version of Ubuntu from 5.04 to 14.04 and they'll figure it out without much difficulty.

I'm not sure. I've tried to run their Unity interface in a virtual box, but couldn't find out how to open a terminal window (or actually any application other than the browser). The usual Start-like button disappeared, there were some large icons on the desktop and nothing else.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 20:03 UTC (Fri) by flussence (guest, #85566) [Link]

Well that's worrying. Every version I'm familiar with has stuck to the Windows 95 design of "that one different-looking button in the left corner is the menu with all the stuff".

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 16, 2015 5:49 UTC (Sat) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

I think it does that because the virtual machine set up an absolute touchpad driver in the guest. That usually works better than a mouse because instead of trying to inaccurately map host mouse moves to guest mouse moves it just says that the cursor is at 120,800.

But to Unity an absolute pointer device is a phone or tablet touch screen so it sets up tablet mode.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 21:23 UTC (Fri) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (7 responses)

That's a very suggestive statement. And its a bit more complicated than that. A lot of novice linux users come to their first linux distribution because they have a flesh and blood advocate and encourages them.

Here's an article back in 2008 concerning a vendors selling pre-installed Ubuntu netbooks. The return rates were higher than anticipated. This provides a direct counterpoint to the argument you are making.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-confirms-linux-netbook-r...

For the purpose of this discussion, I will concede that ubuntu might be the best traditional linux distribution..ever. But I do not think Ubuntu so much better than the rest of the actively developed distros that is is able to "jump the chasm" into mainstream use on its own without advocacy.

What Ubuntu adoption has benefited from is a group of technically savvy advocates who did outreach and put Ubuntu in front of novices and provided local support in a much more organized and concerned way than other linux distributions. They believed in the promise that Ubuntu was approachable to novices and acted on that believe and smoothed the way. Belief is powerful, and credit where credit is due... Canonical and Mark Shuttleworth specifically got a lot of people onboard with the vision and did the impossible... they herded most of the cats and got them pulling all in the same direction.

But when Ubuntu does get into pre-install situations in the past..without that experienced user advocacy support to help on-ramp a novice user.. the return rates killed the product.

And this is exactly why the Dell developer laptop with Ubuntu is doing well .. its not targeting novice users...its targeting people who need to keep ssh running in a terminal session. All of Dell's high profile previous attempts to offer Ubuntu pre-installed sort of sputtered out in the US and Europe. I can't really speak to global uptake, its difficult to get anything concrete with regard to India or China. Hell man, I was actually in Shanghai, China about 4 months after Canonical announced they were selling Ubuntu pre-installed in brick and mortar stores..and I couldn't actually locate a specific store that had an Ubuntu floor model or was selling them pre-installed. I'm not saying they didn't exist. But I am saying that 4 months later, I couldn't find evidence of them. And in fact I've never actually even been able to find a list of stores associated with the original press release. Maybe I didn't try hard enough. But I did try.

I done a lot of work trending available wikimedia stats across multiple years now.. watching linux adoption, and how it compares with Android. And there's no evidence at all that ubuntu has done anything with regard to increasing linux adoption rates. What ubuntu has done is solidified existing adoption trends spread across many distros..the word of mouth effect....and consolidated most of it into Ubuntu adoption...starving other distros...with no appreciable acceleration in the rate of linux growth overall.

I'm very interested to know how Ubuntu pre-installs compare right now to ChromeOS pre-installs, but again those numbers hard to come by. Wikimedia's client reports aren't breaking out CrOS, so I don't have any idea of how it compares in the wild to linux either. I have suspicions..but no numbers to back them up.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 23:22 UTC (Fri) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link] (4 responses)

As far as I can remember no store here in Iceland has ever sold laptop/desktop machine which comes with *any* linux distribution pre-installed directly to customers.

End users have always had to have laptops "special ordered" with Linux pre-installed ( like from Dell ), had to ordered it themselves from system76, zareason and the likes and or buy one and install Linux on it themselves or have someone do it for them.

It used to be a routine job for me as an QA/Ambassador to walk into stores with an Fedora live USB and boot laptops on it so I could recommend which hardware to buy for individuals switching to Fedora ( And later usually install Fedora for them and set it up since it's not like novice end user can use Anaconda and do it themselves and first impression matters ).

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 16, 2015 16:18 UTC (Sat) by ghane (guest, #1805) [Link] (3 responses)

> As far as I can remember no store here in Iceland has ever sold laptop/desktop machine which comes with *any* linux distribution pre-installed directly to customers.

Ha!

(My figures are from 2005 to 2009, when I was in that industry.) In India, we sold close to a million desktops with Linux pre-installed. And I checked now, there are still over a hundred models listed here, including Dell, HP, and Lenovo: http://bit.ly/1Gf6YYr . The most common Linux, as in 2008, seems to be Ubuntu.

Once you are suitably impressed, dig deeper, and you see that many of these are available with FreeDos if you wish. Scratch your head: what possible drivers is FreeDOS using to support the Broadcom wifi? Or the suspend-to-disk? Or the webcam?

Could it be that these laptops are sold with Linux, and unpacked, and then something else is installed on them?

But still, if you wish to buy a HP laptop with Linux installed, go to any developing country with poor software IPR protection. We have lots of models :-)

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 17, 2015 8:39 UTC (Sun) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't think the vendors expected Freedos to be used on those machines. They were sold with Freedos installed to avoid selling "Naked PCs". Microsoft at the time tried to convince the World that selling PCs without an installed operating system was a very bad thing, and probably put a lot of pressure on vendors not to do so. Delivering the PCs with Freedos was the simplest way out of this dilemma.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 17, 2015 13:26 UTC (Sun) by ghane (guest, #1805) [Link] (1 responses)

> I don't think the vendors expected Freedos to be used on those machines. They were sold with Freedos installed to avoid selling "Naked PCs". Microsoft at the time tried to convince the World that selling PCs without an installed operating system was a very bad thing, and probably put a lot of pressure on vendors not to do so. Delivering the PCs with Freedos was the simplest way out of this dilemma.

Speaking on behalf of the OEM community, I am shocked (*shocked*, I say) that our customers who buy our laptops with FreeDOS or Linux would then install the Other OS on it.

But seriously, my point is that looking at how many OEMs pre-load Fedora or Ubuntu is not at all relevant to its usage.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 18, 2015 11:05 UTC (Mon) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link]

"But seriously, my point is that looking at how many OEMs pre-load Fedora or Ubuntu is not at all relevant to its usage."

I have to disagree since price and availability *in local stores* with a sales person showcasing and explaining the pros and cons of each OS that comes pre-installed on the hardware available to the customer most certainly affects what that customer buys, which in turn affects how widespread the relevant OS is.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 18, 2015 9:59 UTC (Mon) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

I don't think we're ever going to see significant growth in the Linux desktop number of users. If anything, I'd expect to be decline.

A long time ago, when I worked in research, most young researchers used Linux laptops. As far as I can tell, OSX now really dominates this segment.

For a long time, IMO Linux was the right choice for "stable computer for web browsing and sending email". As far as I can tell, iOS and Android better serve this purpose now days. If you really need a laptop, ChromeOS and Surface are likely better choices, I mean at least the battery will last as long as it should...

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 21, 2015 23:08 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Here's an article back in 2008 concerning a vendors selling pre-installed Ubuntu netbooks. The return rates were higher than anticipated.

Is that the manufacturer who, despite having a linux return rate four times that of Windows, DIDN'T ACTUALLY MAKE any linux laptops? I seem to remember that really happened ...

And when I bought my linux netbook at ASDA (our local Walmart subsidiary), I specifically asked, and the salesgirl said she didn't know of ANY of them being returned ...

(Plus "higher than anticipated" doesn't mean it was higher than the Windows return rate. That could easily be weasel words because they'd been leant on.)

Cheers,
Wol

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 15, 2015 11:33 UTC (Fri) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link]

With regards to the lack of royalty-encumbered codecs there already exist an Fedora Remix called Korora [1] which comes with the packages Fedora cannot ship directly thus provides that experience out of the box for end users.

Looking at the download statistics for the Korora releases in very unscientific manner and with all the oft-cited problems with usage metrics( This is simply based on downloads from the modified date on the files on sf, recommended download method for Korora is torrent so those statistics aren't included )

Korora Cinnamon downloaded 11,471 times
Korora Gnome downloaded 12,355 times
Korora KDE downloaded 9,302 times
Korora MATE downloaded 1,303 times
Korora XFCE downloaded 10,024 times

Total downloads on SF 44,455

So you have roughly 50k SF users that prefer an distribution based on Fedora that contains all the royalty-encumbered codecs out of the box.

( What is truly meaningful in these figures is the relation between spins/de since Korora does not promote a specific spin/de unlike Fedora where Red Hat has always ensured keeping others spins/de in the shadow of the Gnome one )

In the end of the day end users use whatever works for them and the fact is once they have found what works for them ( for whatever reason ) and while it continues to work for them they wont be switching to another OS, another Linux distribution or another DE for that matter.

That said I think the bigger question people should be asking themselves is "why does a distribution that associates itself with upstream or rather upstreaming, care about these things et all?"

1. https://kororaproject.org/

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 20, 2015 19:11 UTC (Wed) by olivlwn (guest, #100387) [Link]

My little story to why I switched FROM Fedora:

I started up as an Ubuntu user for a few years.
Then feeling more experienced (and fed up with a new version of Unity that didn't work too well on my computer) I moved to Fedora for a few years.
I loved it until an (buggy) Anaconda installer update made it very difficult to install it on my computer.
Now, I was really angry about the 6 months release (which I find very short) so I looked up for a rolling based distribution.
I found Arch.
Rolling based and fiddling to better understand how it works is a good mix for me.

a review of GNOME 3.16 was, in some sense, really a review of Fedora Workstation.

Posted May 21, 2015 23:11 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Which is one of the reasons why I've never even tried Fedora. My two favourite distros are gentoo, which I run, and SuSE, which I install on anybody's system I support.

My gentoo has USE="-gnome -gtk", and SuSE installs KDE by default.

Cheers,
Wol

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 25, 2015 20:44 UTC (Mon) by Tov (subscriber, #61080) [Link] (3 responses)

We can't really compete with Mac or Windows because we can't run Mac or Windows apps. We can compete just fine with Ubuntu. I don't see why we shouldn't aim to make Fedora Workstation the #1 GNU/Linux distribution.

This attitude is the exact reason for mediocricy and _not_ being the #1 GNU/Linux distribution. Ubuntu has had as an ambitious goal from day 1 to compete against Windows. To be able to do this, although they can't run Windows apps, they have strived for achieving useability levels not previously seen in the GNU/Linux ecosystem. They have successfully taken hints from Mac useability and focused on getting things like installation, updates, drivers, multimedia, games etc. to mostly "just work" for non-techies.

Fedora is still a "Sys Admin" workstation desktop and I don't see Fedora being the #1 distribution before they focus more on the needs of a more diverse set of users. And that requires them to set their aim for Mac and Windows.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 25, 2015 23:11 UTC (Mon) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> They have successfully taken hints from Mac useability and focused on getting things like installation, updates, drivers, multimedia, games etc. to mostly "just work" for non-techies.

Installation, updates, drivers, and games -- Fedora and Ubuntu are equivalent.

The only thing missing is multimedia, and Fedora can't help it if their main backer has to follow US law and not ship things encumbered by patents.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 31, 2015 20:45 UTC (Sun) by Tov (subscriber, #61080) [Link]

I will not argue against that. The point was that Ubuntu got there first by aiming higher. Fedora should too.

Why switch to Fedora?

Posted May 26, 2015 9:06 UTC (Tue) by johannbg (guest, #65743) [Link]

Those Red Hatters should stop playing this stupid game with Fedora and making idiotic remarks like this since it's quite clear for anyone that does not have shit for brains to realize that an distribution that allegedly associates itself with upstream or rather upstreaming cannot compete with another Linux distribution.

The first thing the workstation "product" aka the Gnome half of the Red Hat desktop team has to do is to conduct yet another attack on the project foundation and eliminate the upstreaming part of it before it can even begin considering competing against another distribution in the linux ecosystem.

In reality with Red Hat at the helm the only thing the Fedora will become nr.1 in, is being officially labelled the internal distribution for Red Hat available to the general public for it's "products" no more no less.


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